PROVEN DOG

[PPHOGDOGGER]

 NEW HERE BUT I HAVE LURKED AROUND FOR AWHILE.  I HAVE SEEN THE WORD "PROVEN" THROWN AROUND ON HERE MORE THAN I HAVE EVER SEEN. HERE ARE A COUPLE OF  QUESTIONS THAT WILL HELP UNDERSTAND THE MAJORITY THINKING.

WHEN DO YOU CONSIDER A DOG PROVEN?

 
WOULD YOU BUY DOGS THAT COME FROM PARENTS THAT ARE  UNPROVEN?

WOULD STAND BY AND LET SOMEONE THAT SELL DOGS FROM UNPROVEN PARENTS DO SO?  AND MAKE THEM SOUND LIKE THEY ARE THE BEST THING SINCE SLICED BREAD.

IF YOU WOULD IS IT JUST BECAUSE ITS THE PC THING TO DO?

[HogzgoneWild]

I consider(emphasize) I , a dog proven when it has done what is expected numerous times. And will do it everytime whether it be catch dog, strike, bay, or whatever its job may be.
unproven parents- I wouldn't buy, and I wouldn't sell as proven, I would give away as pups from unproven parents.
But thats just me, it happens and nothing you can do about it just do the research and request proof of whats claimed (i.e see the parents work)

[Black Gold]

Q:  WHEN DO YOU CONSIDER A DOG PROVEN?

A:  When he can do what I expect him to do consistently.



Q:  WOULD YOU BUY DOGS THAT COME FROM PARENTS THAT ARE  UNPROVEN?

A:  I can't say that I would....


Q:  WOULD STAND BY AND LET SOMEONE THAT SELL DOGS FROM UNPROVEN PARENTS DO SO?  AND MAKE THEM SOUND LIKE THEY ARE THE BEST THING SINCE SLICED BREAD.

A:  They can sell what they want, but unless I've hunted numerous times with the parent dogs how could I even comment.....
Most folks talk-up the positives and don't over-mention the negatives.....that's human nature!



Q:  IF YOU WOULD IS IT JUST BECAUSE ITS THE PC THING TO DO?

A:  See the above answer.....True colors shine thru soon enough.....not for me to call-out someone.  My own dogs have made me look foolish in front of others when it was time to "live-up" to my verbally expressed expectations..........If I can't call my own dog's actions 100% of the time, I sure won't try to call someone else's!

[W-tate]

I have a dog I bought. Almost. Two years ago as a pup. His parents weren't proven and he ain't a big dog. But he burns the woods up I think any dog give time and the right opurtunity can work but there are always culls.  And will admit it's Esaier to start them when it's in there blood

[TrueBlueLacys]

I know we use it a lot when talking about Lacys. When I say only buy a Lacy from proven parents, I would expect that both parents a.) have a job and b.) do it consistently. It doesn't have to be the best dog in the pack. But you should be able to show up at the breeder's house, have them pull the dog out of the kennel and watch it work. Of course a dog can only be proven at jobs it has actually done. A dog who will bark at a pig in a pen is not a proven woods dog. A dog that will bark at a pig in a pen is also not a proven bay pen dog. I'd expect a proven bay pen dog to perform well in an open competition.

Would I buy a dog from parents who aren't proven? No, not a Lacy, not if I wanted it to work. But it is really the buyer's responsibility to do the research and figure out whether or not the parents are proven. Policing unscrupulous breeders would be a full-time job. And I agree with Cody, unless I'd hunted with the parents it would be hard to say they were proven, just as it would be hard to say they weren't.

[DanS]

well i'll play devil's advocate on this one.....

I think it is a pretty safe bet you ask anyone "would you buy pups out of dogs that aren't prove?" they are going to say "no"....because it sounds right, but consider these three scenarios, and tell me what you think....

I've owned and bred a line of dogs I picked up from a friend for the last 10 years.....One of the litter's we had only 4 pups survived.....3 of the 4 stayed in our hunting group and one was sold for a pet.....well all 3 turned out to be barn-burners and I happened to get the female i kept killed......well an opportunity came up for me to get the one female that was sold for a pet back so it did.......The dog had seen nothing but a couple penned up hogs the guy kept around his house for her entire 3 years with him.....I took her out to the woods dropped her out on a pack of hogs with some other dogs, and she ran and bayed for 2 hours.....I proceeded to take her home and lock her up for a year until she came into heat.....The pups are about 5 month old now......I know this dog's blood like the back of my hand....but she is far from proven herself.....what would you have done, keep in mind i've had a real hard time keeping gyps from this line from being killed in action....

2nd scenario-  my buddy raises up a pointer gyp for the sole purpose of crossing it into his this same line of proven dogs.....she never seen a hog before or after she had pups,  The dogs from this cross are 2 years old now and hard to beat.....

3rd scenario- another buddy raises up and trains a leapard gyp to a finished dog.  This gyp is as nice and solid a female as i ever seen hit the ground...maybe better.....caught hundreds upon hundreds with her over a 6 year period.....we bred this gyp 3 different times to good males, everything she threw was junk......

I guess what i'm saying is sometime's blood is as important as experience...maybe sometime's more important

[BigAinaBuilt]

Here's my .02 on "proven" dogs and what come from them.

 I would consider a dog proven when he or she can produce a certain product on demand whether it be hogs cattle birds or the remote control.

Yes! I would buy a proven DOG from unproven parents because the odds are alot better then buying an unproven puppy from proven parents.

As far as what other people sell I won't say a word about anyone elses dog unless I have had the oppurtunity to see the dog work and am willing to put my word behind its work and even then it isn't my deal to put my nose in and would keep my words of dissapproval between myself, The seller and a few mutual friends that enquire about the dog.

I have sold a few dogs since I have started having my own pack and have figured out that I would rather be COMPLETELY honest about each dog and its abilities and have it spend a few months extra with me then to B.S someone into buying the dog from me just to have the dog come back or end up left in the mountains.

[dabutcher]

well i'll play devil's advocate on this one.....

I think it is a pretty safe bet you ask anyone "would you buy pups out of dogs that aren't prove?" they are going to say "no"....because it sounds right, but consider these three scenarios, and tell me what you think....

I've owned and bred a line of dogs I picked up from a friend for the last 10 years.....One of the litter's we had only 4 pups survived.....3 of the 4 stayed in our hunting group and one was sold for a pet.....well all 3 turned out to be barn-burners and I happened to get the female i kept killed......well an opportunity came up for me to get the one female that was sold for a pet back so it did.......The dog had seen nothing but a couple penned up hogs the guy kept around his house for her entire 3 years with him.....I took her out to the woods dropped her out on a pack of hogs with some other dogs, and she ran and bayed for 2 hours.....I proceeded to take her home and lock her up for a year until she came into heat.....The pups are about 5 month old now......I know this dog's blood like the back of my hand....but she is far from proven herself.....what would you have done, keep in mind i've had a real hard time keeping gyps from this line from being killed in action....

2nd scenario-  my buddy raises up a pointer gyp for the sole purpose of crossing it into his this same line of proven dogs.....she never seen a hog before or after she had pups,  The dogs from this cross are 2 years old now and hard to beat.....

3rd scenario- another buddy raises up and trains a leapard gyp to a finished dog.  This gyp is as nice and solid a female as i ever seen hit the ground...maybe better.....caught hundreds upon hundreds with her over a 6 year period.....we bred this gyp 3 different times to good males, everything she threw was junk......

I guess what i'm saying is sometime's blood is as important as experience...maybe sometime's more important

that's all valid points.  i think for me, and i learned this the expensive way, it would have to be dog's from proven lineage.  i mean parents, grandparents and preferably great grandparents for these pups.  may sound like i'm asking a lot but it'll sure better your odds of not getting junk.  i'd also like to know how many of the offspring from the parents litter turned out and if they know how the grandparents litter turned out.  that's why i think it's so important to find some dogs you like and research the who's who of the breed or cross.  I can guarantee you i'll never buy another dog from a line of dogs i don't know.  You may have to wait longer to find a dog you're looking for but i can attest to the fact that'll it'll pay off in the long run, no matter what the wait.

[uglydog]

I thought I would like to hear some more input from Breeders on this subject.

[Scott]

WHEN DO YOU CONSIDER A DOG PROVEN?

Cur - when it consistently does what it was bred to do. Bulldog - when it has been put through the fire and completed the task at hand with zero backup or quit, it could take 1 hog or it could take a 100+

WOULD YOU BUY DOGS THAT COME FROM PARENTS THAT ARE  UNPROVEN?

Not a chance

WOULD STAND BY AND LET SOMEONE THAT SELL DOGS FROM UNPROVEN PARENTS DO SO?  AND MAKE THEM SOUND LIKE THEY ARE THE BEST THING SINCE SLICED BREAD.

IF YOU WOULD IS IT JUST BECAUSE ITS THE PC THING TO DO?

If we are speaking about selling dogs on a www message board...it would depend on the board. Some boards are heavily moderated and "call out" posts (for lack of a better term) are most often deleted. Other boards are loosely moderated...even to the point of not even allowing a post to be edited by the author once the "post" button is hit. With that type of message board...you type it, you own it. I don't have a problem with either. However, the latter does offer more "drama" and by the same token breeders that fit the description of the above quote don't hang around long.

I don't have a problem calling a spade a spade....

[BIG BEN]

Q:  WHEN DO YOU CONSIDER A DOG PROVEN?

A:  When a dog can find, stop, and hold hogs by himself with no help from other dogs



Q:  WOULD YOU BUY DOGS THAT COME FROM PARENTS THAT ARE  UNPROVEN?

A:  No, chances of a good dog are better from proven dogs


Q:  WOULD STAND BY AND LET SOMEONE THAT SELL DOGS FROM UNPROVEN PARENTS DO SO?  AND MAKE THEM SOUND LIKE THEY ARE THE BEST THING SINCE SLICED BREAD.

A: Thats their business