Raising Pups, opinions wanted

[Bryant]

Krystal, I agree.

No matter how much you train and condition Pee-Wee Herman to be a boxer....he'll never cut the mustard against Tyson!  

...but he might be a heck of a good boxer in his own sense, just not AS good.  Why?  Genetics are in Tyson's favor.

If a person decided they were a professional boxing trainer, and had 10 young men lined up in a row to choose the potential candidate from would you just grab one and say, "Don't really care about his genetics, his abilities, his stamina, how muscular or fit he is, what his parents were like...all that doesn't really matter...If he boxes, he boxes." would the odds of winning the final match be in your favor, or the favor of one who did his research and started off with the most viable candidate? 

Dogs are no different.  Why not start with proven stock (although nothing is 100% guaranteed) and stack the odds in your favor from the get-go.  A person can get a decent dog most anywhere, but what I strive for is excellent...not decent.

Do I have excellent dogs?  Nope...not by my standards but I'm still trying!  Thats the fun of it all!

[Black Gold]

Just to keep this going......(because it has been one of the best threads in a long time)....let me put out this question to everyone.

Looking from the view of "genetics is the key".....what percentage of pups need to turn out for the breeding to be considered highly successful?....50%?....more?........If two dogs bred together can turn out 75% pups that make great dogs then is their genetic capability better than 2 that can only tun out 50%........how are the duds accounted for in your mind?....I realize their will always be duds....just would like to hear your thoughts......

[Black Gold]

Quote from Bryant,

Do I have excellent dogs?  Nope...not by my standards but I'm still trying!  Thats the fun of it all!

Same for me Bryant!

[jdt]

i ve changsd my position , i think we should clone a couple o litters , give em a year ,,,, then go on a talk show and  straighten this all out!  wink wink wink.

[jhy]

1. Good Gentics

2. Nutrition, exercise, socialization with older dogs and basic OB

3. Show pigs and begin trash breaking.

4. 8 mo. or older I start taking to easy terrain hunts with older dogs.

5. Keep them in the woods

6. Patience, Patience, and Reward or Gone!


My main focus lately has been testing different diets and really conditioning the dogs as if they were game dogs.  The older dogs have had signifigant improvement.  The pups that I have I am very pleased with physical condition so far, they are 6 mo. old now, seen a couple of penned hogs.  Going to start them in bay pen soon, and then trash break before they hit the woods.

Joey

[Black Gold]

Realdogs wrote,

but nothing and i mean NOTHING will out shine hunting genetics there is not any training you can do that will tell a 8-16 week old puppies to travel off of 350 acres and bay a hog,cow,snake,bullfrog,etc,, all by itself with out any training,,,,,,,,thats pure GENETICS,,,,,,,

That is a good point made there.....



This has really been a thread that has sparked some real thought for me......Really liking this board!

[pig snatcher]

"but nothing and i mean NOTHING will out shine hunting genetics there is not any training you can do that will tell a 8-16 week old puppies to travel off of 350 acres and bay a hog,cow,snake,BULLFROG,etc"

So realdogs is there a big market for frog dogs out in Texas. HAHAHA just funning.

Good point on genetics.

[uglydog]

Scott, you start talking chinese, about paradox this and that you going way over my head! : SPEAK ENGLISH MAN!

I do not disagree about the breedng of pups at 8-16 weeks having the "want to GO" already, If they are leaving 350 acre property at that age, what are they gonna do at 9-10 months with encouragement and a reason to go?  pretty impressive. Most likely (definately) too much dog for me to have on my properties.

That being your goal, to breed that into your dogs is awesome, that is proving true genetics for you.

But what about breeding a dog to perfectly suit the needs of the average individual who is hunting 500- to 1000 acres? How do you deal with that kinda stuff with your long range dogs? A dog like your are talking about raising is going to get gone in a hurry from that size property, impressed I would be, and in a perfect world I would love to know, nothing is gonna stop my dogs from getting that hog! That is not my case unfortunately.

I am talking more in GENERAL about dogs genetics trying to breed I guess you could call them a designer dog, that hunts a certain particular style,  charistics and traits to better suit specific needs. Instead Range and bottom being the upmost importance, there are other traits that are more important to some people. 
Anyway back on point I believe you are right on track with your dogs where you want to be, I know I am track where I want to be, you & I are in two different places, I guess. However there are folks out there, Mostly  less experienced that get a dog and the genetics never reach that full potential raised in that environment.
Example- I am pulling this out of thin air because I don’t know your dogs I am only going by what I  have read here, so I might be way off course here, so don’t take this personal. I have had it happen with other bloodlines is why I am going with it as an example. I take a pup bred to hunt different, longer w/more bottom than the dogs I raise. Like you stated above the dogs start getting further ahead than the older
Dogs they are started behind and yes it is exciting to see a pup strike first hog, the real deal, but as they adventually start getting farther and more advanced they also become bored and running trash, I can’t see what they are running, my older dog is not there to let me know what they are up too, so they get away with it several times before I bust them, now they are driven dogs and want something bad, if a hog is there, they find it but NO hogs, means they are going to find something else, and  they have learned sometimes they get caught and sometimes they don’t, a year down the road I have a dog that messes up alot and is continuously on the other wrong side of the property line possibly chases the deer and gets seen by the neighbor,  I am either not a good enough handler/trainer to control the dog,  or I may get my dogs shot at, plus this pup may also become the teacher, helping my other dogs get into trouble. All because his genetics are built in to go-go-go hunting. In my case, a dog that just goes on till he finds what he is after is not neccessarily a Great DOG. I have sold my dogs that got that genetic implant of getting on the wrong side of the property line,  to other people that want that pre-programmed hard drive in their dogs, works great for them but not for my way of doing things.  If introducing “new blood” into my pack I am going to look for dogs that are similar to the dogs I raise and have to come to enjoy hunting, that is what  I want “pre-programmed” in the genetics to have dogs that all have same similar traits, but not the same similar traits the next guy has.
That’s also another example of ENVIROMENT, I know I am not a good environment for genetically long range, long bottom dogs, I guess I BORE them. I think new people in this Hog Dog Game, also can have same kind of issues because they are not familiar enough with “genetics” or “environments” to choose the right dog to “fit” what they are going to do with the dog, how much time they have to work a dog, the right places to work a dog, or The KNOW-How  to bring one up to match its potential.  Not every environment is just right for every dog, just because it is labeled “hog dog”.
See yall made me babble again

[Black Gold]

I think it comes down to a good degree of individuality in both dog and dog owner.....

Let's look at choosing genetics.....I had a guy call yesterday who wanted to buy some catahoulas.....He didn't care where they were from or any details about breeding because in his mind a catahoula was a hog dog and that was good enough.  For most on this board it would be clear that that everyone understands that it isn't that simple.....That breeding and past performance of ancestoral dogs are key factors when deciding what to breed together to get desired traits and behaviors.

Like Krystal said......a dog that fits Scott's bill for being top may not be desired by the next guy, but Scott is working on producing or amplifying a certain set of characteristics to future generations of his specific hunting dogs.

Everyone here would agree that it wouldn't be wise to try and hunt dobermans or to waste time in trying to make one into a hog dog, but they may not be so easy to agree on what dogs posess traits that they want to see passed down.  For Scott it seems long range and drive are important...for Krystal that seems to be a negative (long range).......so even if both had the same cloned dog they would each be looking for different characteristics and traits when training, hunting, and making decisions on the dog's performance.

There is just too much individuality to nail down anything specific.

[Bryant]

I agree with you Scott, and you and I have talked several times how we pretty much see eye to eye on this subject.  As another example of what your saying..pups that bay a hog at FIRST sight.  Not talking about letting another dog go first and get them worked up, not talking about catch the hog and get it squealing.  I'm talking about show them a hog, and BOOM...they go to work.  THAT'S GENETIC!  I talk to people sometimes who are working pups and they say, "Man...they sure are starting to show some interest.  A few more times in the pen, and I think they're REALLY gonna start coming around."  In the back of my mind, I'm thinking your behind from the get-go.  Another one of my pet peeves is someone that thinks young hog dogs shouldn't run trash.  If I take a pup to the woods first time and it trashes on whatever, I'M EXCITED!  That pup confirmed what I believed in that it has GAME!  Now my job begins, of honing it in and helping it to realize the intended prey.

To continue the discussion...

When I personally refer to and research well genetically bred dogs, I'm looking for the whole package and not necessarily one quality alone (ie. distance the dog hunts).  I like a dog that travels a good bit, but if I let him out of the box and he straight lines it four counties over he's worthless in my book and I'll take shorter range dogs that are more thorough and find hogs behind him.  (I have had both types of dogs, and have done just that).  If my standards or criteria of "superdog" like what I spoke about several posts up were simply range I would be researching, looking for, breeding and hunting closed mouth hounds (which by design are genetically charged to go yonder!)

What works for me personally is this...a dog that hits the ground hunting (my dogs are so excited about finding a hog that they don't even stop to crap before they're in the woods), a dog with lots of bottom (I lost a dog to heat stroke a couple weeks ago because instead of quit a hog, he ran it until basically it killed him), a dog that hunts out a good bit but is EXTREMELY thorough...hunts by making large loops, but that I seldom see.  He may get out a pretty far bit, but it's going to take a while.  I want a dog that is athletically built for both speed and stamina.  A dog with a short, tight coat to help with heat.  Quick on his feet, extremely agile. Fast to learn and smart enough to learn from his own experiences. Then you can further venture into conformation which can indirectly affect his abilities, but is also a good bit visual...yada, yada, yada.  All of these of which, are genetic traits.

I don't own two dogs like what I mentioned above (or even one perfect dog in my mind), and thats why I don't breed.  The 'ole addage of "I bred this pretty good dog I have to a dog which is a friend of my buddies thats supposed to be pretty good, and these should make some REAL fine pups" just don't get it in my book.

Speaking again to you directly Scott, I commend you on your knowledge and the research that you put into your breeding.  There's no doubt from what I know that they should make some fine specimens.  I just believe there are far too many people breeding dogs without a clue as to what their putting together.  Two mediocre dogs never produce exceptional offspring. 

Like what has been said a bunch of times above...with enough time, experience and patience you can luck into a pretty decent dog out of just about anything but if what your wanting is BETTER than decent you better find a way to sway the odds and the best way I know of is through GENETICS.

All that and a nickel won't get you a dang thing...just my take.

[Sean]

very interesting thread! i don't have enough experience with the breeding side of things to add anything useful to the conversation(at least anything that hasn't already been said a few times). it's great to see everyone's take on this though. very cool

[Bryant]

..and one other thing

This has really been a thread that has sparked some real thought for me......Really liking this board!

I like this board too and am glad you are posting and value your opinions, Cody.

What stands out to me about this board is that even though people have differing opinions, respect is still shown.  The fact of it is, is that there's no SINGLE, PERFECTED method for what were all trying to achieve.  If it were, it would be written in a manual that we would all be following and we'd all have perfect dogs. 

Me personally I'm here to learn by reading the opinions, methods, schemes, problems, and successes that others have experienced. (and maybe tell an 'ole hunting story along the way).

I also know there are members with a LOT of experience and knowledge that for whatever reason don't post.  Please feel free to join in and "learn us something!!"
 

[jhy]

Realdogs,

I had a guy in Chicago wanting to send me a breed of dog he has developed for PP work up there.  They are called Dino Dogs, (Pit x Doberman).  Dobermans of today are what they used to be though! 
Joey

[Black Gold]

Realdogs wrote:

Cody,look at the dobie with a full set of ears un clipped and a tail and tell me what you see,and study their pheno type,and structure.there substance is to be desired in a running catchdog dog................... 

I knew that was coming from someone! 

[Black Gold]

Bryant Wrote:

What stands out to me about this board is that even though people have differing opinions, respect is still shown.

That creates a great platform for learning for everyone......With that respect shown people are comfortable in sharing their ideas and opinions without the fear of being shot down by some jerk with an attitude and ego who thinks he knows it all and it's his way or the highway. 
When everyone posts openly you can read it all, take and use what you want, and discard the rest.....while at the same time getting some real food for thought.

[Black Gold]

Realdogs wrote:

or the people that don't even own a real hog dog or have ever and try to be experts on everything themselves or any subject ther of



           or when people get there lips loaded but have never had to experience it for themselves but become profound persons of experience and never raised or finished a dog out.



           or because the had a few potlickers and sold them they oppose any other free thinkers because they didn't endose it.......


            becaise your not part of there clich or thinking patterns(brainwashed) you become the evil one





      but we are all supposed to respect each other and each style and when someone asked an open forum its opinion then doesn't like the reponse because it not what they wanted to hear.



Realdogs

I can't quite figure out if that's a negative or positive post, but you definately have a dark side Realdogs!

One of the things about a message board.....unless you know the person individually you have no clue who you are talking to.....could be an "expert" (whatever that is) or could be a 13 year old kid......Don't take message board talk too serious......I never do......Put me in the woods with somebody a few times hunting and true colors shine thru and true knowledge is revealed......on message boards you just never know who you're talking to.....      Still a great learning platform!

[Mike]

I can't quite figure out if that's a negative or positive post, but you definately have a dark side Realdogs!

One of the things about a message board.....unless you know the person individually you have no clue who you are talking to.....could be an "expert" (whatever that is) or could be a 13 year old kid......Don't take message board talk too serious......I never do......Put me in the woods with somebody a few times hunting and true colors shine thru and true knowledge is revealed......on message boards you just never know who you're talking to.....      Still a great learning platform!

You're exactly right Cody, people get on the internet and you'd think they were the king of hog hunting and they've got the best dogs around. They don't realize it's a small circle and everyone knows everyone.

Then they talk down to people who have been hunting a while, breeding certain dogs to their liking and catch tons of hogs... and don't brag one bit about anything. They just post and share their stories on the internet for everyone's enjoyment.

I don't get it???

[uglydog]

I know this is an old post but sometimes some of the old posts are worth re-reading. Some posts have been deleted but thee is still alot of good information and discussion that can be added to, since ETHD has added so many new people in the past two years.

[Reuben]

Uglydog,

I am new here and this is an awesome thread.....

My 2 cents worth is genetics first. The dog has got to be built right. want to hunt and act right.

Environment is very important because a dog can be brought to his maximum potential in the right hands or can become a mediocre dog inthe wrong hands.
I have seen great hogdogs go to someone who in 3 months sold the dog because it trail barked a little, or in their opinion the dog goes too far on a bad running hog and usually this type of person neglects feeding the dog regularly, does not worm it and probably will not have it on heart worm prevention. Will talk noise on the person who sold the dog and then talk noise on the breeder and it just goes on and on. I have seen this often enough.

A hog dog is born not made.

An extreme example that I like to use is; John Doe buys a weiner dog to run against the greyhounds at the track and because he has plenty of money spends 1,000,000 dollars on special training and nutrition. At the end of the year he is still a slow weiner dog compared to the racing greyhounds and no amount of training will help.

In the meantime Joe Blow who also has plenty of money goes out and buys 20  top blooded greyhound pups after consulting an expert and hires a good trainer to feed, socialize and train the pups and at the end of the year he  :)goes to the track and racks up... He does all this with the fraction of the cost that John Doe spent...

[make-em-squeel]

Breeding is more impt. to me and here is why:  I dont want to breed a dog that had to be trained to be a good hog dog, i want to breed the dog that has been to the woods ten time, you never see and will bay all day b/c it is just in him, and run with your finished dog like a old pro b/c he lives for it not b/c he has been trained to.

Of coarse the enviroment plays a role in final outcome its just not what is most impt. or the primary place to start. But Its not like you would breed a good dog and beat it every day or raise it on the sofa.