Starting a Cow Dog pup?

[Circle C]

Lets say you had a 3 month old cur dog pup out of several generations of working dogs, and you wanted her to become a cow dog.

What are the steps you would take assuming you don't have an older dog to start them with?

[rdjustham]

try her out on some calves and see how she does on her own.  My year old cat came fom cow stock and for the heck of it i turned her out on six or seven head of rank wild cows and she had them stopped and bunched on her own..She did it like shed done it before.  Only problem is i dont work cows and shes suppose to be a hog dog..  

[BarrNinja]

I am in no way qualified to respond to this thread but that hasn’t stopped me from responding on others!

All I will say is that I would get as much input from the cowboys as I could because there is a lot to be said about developing bay style and handle in a cowdog prospect.
Good luck with him.

[Rockin-P-Ranch]

Chris dont know if Iam what you would call anexpert but this is what I would try if you dont have an older dog to start one out.1st you need a cow, I have an old jerzy nurse cow that has trained more pups than you can shake astick at.She dont get upset about dogs barking at her only when they try to catch. She always has a calf or two on her so if they run off I walk the pups out to them and put them back with the cow. Putting them with a grown dog is by far the easyest way. Make sure you have a very good pen to work in if you use calves, they may try to get air born on you. If the pup is from sure enough working dog stock training will not be a hard thing at all. It will come natural. I hope this will help a little. But im sure there are other people that do it different than I do.

[Circle C]

Mr P and Mr Ninja


I like to ask questions from many different people, think about their responses, ask some more questions, then after some observation and trial and error, form some of my own opinions. So here I am starting at the beginning. Asking questions...

I've got access to some old timers that I can ask, but they are not in front of me right now like the WWW is, so I figured I would ask here too. Seems there are plenty of cowboys that visit this forum, and from the pictures I have seen, most all of them have some cur dogs in their string.

Mr P.

1st you need a cow, I have an old jerzy nurse cow that has trained more pups than you can shake astick at.She dont get upset about dogs barking at her only when they try to catch. She always has a calf or two on her so if they run off I walk the pups out to them and put them back with the cow.

I have access to plenty of roping steers, and dog broke cattle (the guy uses them to train his collies). In your scenario I can see where the pup is both learning to bay them, as well as go after cattle that have left the group.  Is it better to start the pup baying one cow/ steer or am I better off penning 2-3 of them and if one walks off, taking her to them and having her bunch them again?  Is your jersey with calves your pups very first exposure to baying cattle? or is she more of the second step, after first letting her know she is supposed to bay them?

Make sure you have a very good pen to work in if you use calves, they may try to get air born on you.

Here are my options for pens...which would you use?
My entire property is fenced and cross fenced with pipe and cattle panels. A couple of the working areas are:

50' round pen that is 6' tall, with cedar slabs so that the stock cannot see out of it.

140' x 250' pipe and panel pen, top rail is ~58" tall
120' x 250' pipe and panel pen, top rail is ~58" tall
40' x 150' pipe and panel pen, top rail is ~58" tall
40' x 100' pipe and panel pen, top rail is ~58" tall

The four pens listed above all have squared off corners, would you recommend putting up some portable panels to block the corners?

BTW, these pens were never intended to hold cattle, just horses and sheep, so they might be a bit short. If they are, I can use my neighbors roping arena, its 175x250 with 5-1/2 foot sides.

[jdt]

i dont know if its right or wrong but heres what i do, take a few , 5 -50 lol dogbroke cattle and tell him huntemup!! when he goes let him bay a while and them ease up and push the cattle expecting the pup to stay on the opposite side . if he comes on your side tell him get ahead !! and push him around . next step take him out of site from the cattle walk or ride towards the cattle and tell him hunt em up ! then repeat step 1 . i like to start pups in pairs , it gives them more confidence . i am interested in seeing others responces

[Circle C]

What do you do if the pup decides to get rough with the cattle... let's say it would rather catch than bay?  Do you put him in there with a cow that will stomp the pup, to back her off? E-collar? End of a rope?   I know what I would do with a rough hog dog pup, but I don't know how much of the training ideas cross over to a cow dog pup...

[Rockin-P-Ranch]

Chris I have a 150x200 roping pen here at the house that I start out in.And yes 3head of ropng steers should work well.Your 175x250 sounds just right to start in,big enough for them to really move around in but still confined.I have never just started one pup so there may have to be a little more encuraging from you to help get it started. Move the cattle around on foot and try to get the pup to chace after them. If it is breed as good as I think it is the pup should go to the front and try to stop them from moving.Use your voice to get it to come out when you want it to and put the pup back on them again.There may be a lot of foot work on your part but it will be worth it.

[bayem~and~slay em]

Circle c myself I am not claiming to be a pro at this but the iswbat I have don't and my uncle as well he raises alotta pbr and prca stock if th pups are young but wantin to work work em on hogs than work up to cattle th best cattle dogs we have r old hog dogs the hogs will make em work like they r suppose to sometimes th fatties size will make a pup not wanna work or like was said get a calf but if something happens to tht calf like broke neck or leg from bein spooked your out more money than ya would be if a start on hogs idk if this helps n e but thts a lil advice lol

[Circle C]

I have three pups right now that are all the same age. I guess I could start all three the same, and see which ones take to it better?

[Rockin-P-Ranch]

That is what I would do Chris.Try them together and seewich one takes to it first. But Im going to tell you, That one that starts first will probly be the best hog dog too.LOL

[Caughtandhobbled]

Chris the one thing that I would like to add is the command "GET OUT". Nobody wants a dog in their pasture barking at cows that have already been penned, chasing a calf through fences and so on (basically causing headaches). Ronnie and John have both offered some good advise. If at all possible I would try to get an older dog with manners involved, the pups will pick it up faster and mind better. As for as the roping pen next door this will be a perfect setup. You have stated that the pups come from working stock so this should be one of your easier projects as for as getting them started, just make certain that you can stop them when it is time. Good Luck...

[Wmwendler]

In my opinion all the same applies both hog dogs and cow dogs, but like i've said before I personally would'nt want anything different between a hog dog and a cow dog.  The locating, bunching and holding should all come naturally from good stock.  The training is in the handle;  Get ahead, get out, get behind, and breakaway allert are all things the dog has to be taught.  I wan't the rest to just come natural.  Ofcourse it allways helps to run an older dog with them as an example most times they will learn to handle by just following suite.  Most working cowdogs run loose as pups and just start baying cattle on thier own whenever stock comes around the house.  Then when its time to work cows just take a pup allong they will learn on the job.  In your case I would wait untill they show some intrest then put them in the roping pen and let them bay.  After they get comfortable you can start adding the handle.  I would not use calves only yearllings or older.  Roping steers should work just fine.  There is no telling what a calf will do, and for pups, that could be a bad way to start.  Calves dont really bunch very well in the absence of adult cattle, they just scatter and run in random directions.

Waylon

[Circle C]

Thanks for the info guys.  I keep thinking it can't be that different from hog dogs, except as stated, needing a good handle. With the hog dog pups I have raised, I have taken a hands off approach for the most part. I think the difference I can see as a cow dog pup, will be that I need to spend more time with them while they are young, build a relationship with them so that they know who they are working for. I am not so interested in having the dog range out looking for woods cattle, as I am having the dog help keep the cattle bunched when moving them from one pasture to another.

I had a friend tell me that he likes to start his dogs on pairs. Said they will bunch well, and the mommas will generally keep the dogs on their toes and keyed up, said it keeps the young dogs from getting bored when a momma comes out of the bunch after them.

Your thoughts?

[slimpickins]

Here's my $.02. Don't use the tail of a rope or anything similar to correct negativity.
I've seen great dogs disappear when someone builds a loop or untied a bullwhip from this.
Mine were always gunshy, from the noise of a gun as I instilled the sound of a bullwhip, add a "get out!" command and they were out of sight.
Mine learned early and fast what that combo meant, as I hate doing a job again, because a dog wouldn't stop and ran them through a fence or over a gate.
 

[Circle C]

Here's my $.02. Don't use the tail of a rope or anything similar to correct negativity.
I've seen great dogs disappear when someone builds a loop or untied a bullwhip from this.

I knew I came to the right place to get some good info.

[Wmwendler]

Yeah......Starting them on pairs would be ideal for the reasons you stated

Waylon

[cward]

When Crystal leaves for school I will try and get a video of some 3 month old pups makeing the goats bunch it is funny as hell but Crystal gets plum made!!Them goats better bunch or them pups will eat on them!!Crystal is telling me witch ones she is going to cull but they are the ones that are hammering them goats arse!!
To me there is a difference in a pup barking at something and a pup truely baying!! I have had pups bark at cows and show intrest but when you wake up one morning and the cows are bunched and you have to go get them off so the cows can graze that is what I call truely bayed!!That usally is when they have hit  a mature spot in age could rage from 6months to 14 months just depends on the dog!!

[RockinW]

i'm sure not the expert here either but,  cows with little calves will wad up and stay bunched and fight the dogs more,  and thats great for bigger young dogs but be careful, if the pups are still pretty small a cow is liable to blow out and smear em in the grass.  roping steers would be good for younger pups.

and seems to me like if you work a pretty gritty pup on just 1 or 2 head to long they'll get catchy and just want to get aholt of something and not circle and bay, but then most of mine have been  pretty catchy anyways

[james.frankovich]

Try to keep them penned up where they can see cattle crossing around the pen periodically throughout the day....and only bring them out to work (in a controlled environment..e.g. Small pen/arena w ropin steers) at first...Once they start clicking, still, only bring them out to work.  It builds a fire and pretty soon cattle is all they will want in life.