Line breeding

[kinnidi]

when you breed bro/sis you are not linebreeding on a target individual...

you are linebreeding to every animal in that matings history equally...

one pup may pull traits from sires 8th generation, another from his mothers 3rd generation, so on and so forth...

it's a total crapshoot... be ready to cull...

[waylon-N.E. OK]

one pup may pull traits from sires 8th generation, another from his mothers 3rd generation, so on and so forth...

it's a total crapshoot... be ready to cull...

As opposed to outcrossing where your pups may be pulling traits from only God knows where IMO and that's all it is outcrossing on a regular basis is the biggest gamble you can do, and I will bet my last dollar more good lines of dogs have been lost that way than any other single problem in dog breeding, lack of culling or " barn blindness " being a close 2nd, but to get back on topic, my vote is this.  If both dogs are exactly what you want to reproduce go for it, if not look elsewhere

[3-Bdogs]

here is my 2cents you can do it but i don't think your consistency will start factorin in til a couple or more litters are produced for the fact the the grandparents were not kin at all which would mean you were startin your own line and it would call for lots of culling i mean anything you don't want would need to be gone cause if its not chances it will show up more and more i say do it see what will happen cull hard if it works good deal

[WAARHEID]

It's not rocket science...

Experiment until you find what you want, then line breed the  out of that, then cull ruthlessly until you've fixed type, then cull/refine until you've removed the major faults. By then you'll be 90 years old and can only hope that the next generation won't squander or abandon what you've spent your whole life building.

Hybrid vigor and in-breeding depression are very real, but they are also very over-blown. I don't understand why horsemen and houndsmen keep having the line-breeding/out-crossing debate. Line breeding is the only way to create reliable/predictable type, period. Intra-breed-out-crossing proponents like Pat Burns conveniently forget that they can get a lot of jam-up dogs from out-crossing now only because of all the hundreds of years of selective line breeding that went into their hounds/terriers/bird-dogs before they were even born that created large pools of prepotent stock among various breeds/types from which they can now "out-cross" <sigh>. It's like a trust-fund baby that thinks you don't have to work hard to be wealthy... he forgets that his granddaddy had to work hard to make all that money.

[Reuben]

It's not rocket science...

Experiment until you find what you want, then line breed the  out of that, then cull ruthlessly until you've fixed type, then cull/refine until you've removed the major faults. By then you'll be 90 years old and can only hope that the next generation won't squander or abandon what you've spent your whole life building.

Hybrid vigor and in-breeding depression are very real, but they are also very over-blown. I don't understand why horsemen and houndsmen keep having the line-breeding/out-crossing debate. Line breeding is the only way to create reliable/predictable type, period. Intra-breed-out-crossing proponents like Pat Burns conveniently forget that they can get a lot of jam-up dogs from out-crossing now only because of all the hundreds of years of selective line breeding that went into their hounds/terriers/bird-dogs before they were even born that created large pools of prepotent stock among various breeds/types from which they can now "out-cross" <sigh>. It's like a trust-fund baby that thinks you don't have to work hard to be wealthy... he forgets that his granddaddy had to work hard to make all that money.

I believe there is lots of truth to what you are saying. Part of the breeding problem IMO is that we as humans have a wide range of ideas as to what a good dog is or what a good hunting dog is supposed to look like. This is one reason we have such variation in hunting dogs.

Then you have the folks that breed brownie who doen't hunt or bay but the sire was a decent dog.  To me we should never do this but I have been guilty of it but only because I knew the line of dogs and the negative was minor. I also took into consideration that even though this dog was not of the best quality it was not an outcross so that was my logic as to why I did it. I have inbred and linebred to get where I wanted to be quickly but knew I couldn't make a mistake when culling.

I do not understand totally the genes as far as dominant and recessive but I do know that a lot of the hunting qualities in a dog are from recessive genes so when you outcross in another type of dog to the line we work so hard to establish, it is very possible we lose all what we have bred for for many generations in that one outcross. I believe this happens because a lot of the negative traits come from dominant genes. I know we can get the hybrid vigor but even that should be done with a not so distant relative.

[parker]

each set  of  dogs  is  going  to  breed  different ....you  can't  just  apply  what  you  have  read ......it's  all  what COULD   happen if  you  do  this  or  that  breeding ......there  is  NO  doubt if  you  like  what  you  have  line  breeding  will  benifet  you  even  if  you  have  to  cull  some ..... its  perty  simple  pick the  best  dog  that  suits  you  and then  line  breed  back  and  fourth  pooling  his  or her  blood  til  you   get  some  consistant  results ....... it  is a  process  for  sure ////

[Crib]

Good responses,

In k-9 genetics dogs can pull from any dog in their ancestry. Thats why you can have siblings that dont look alike. To lessen the number of factors closing down on and isolating desirable traits will produce the most predictablity. Mad man experimental outcrosses is like throwing puzzle pieces in the air and letting them land wherever. You have the right idea tryin to keep em all. You would have to cull the undesirables otherwise you'll be locking that in. If they are not closely related beyond the parents somoeone would need to try this anyway. If they are closely  related in the bakground be mindful of want your locking down with those two.

[craig]

when you breed bro/sis you are not linebreeding on a target individual...

you are linebreeding to every animal in that matings history equally...

one pup may pull traits from sires 8th generation, another from his mothers 3rd generation, so on and so forth...

it's a total crapshoot... be ready to cull...

yeh, i understand that, he is not going to be line breding till he makes a few more breedings back into theses 2 dogs. but if he is wanting to reproduce the traits of those dogs parents how else are you going to do it with the other dogs dead and gone.

[UNDERDOG]

My sister has a gyp that is the tightest breed dog of my line the little gyp is just a nice dog!!She was the only puppy in her litter I was going to do away with her and my sister raised her!! After watching her work as she got older I said lets breed her!! I took her to three different outside dogs and all three litters she had atleast 2 pups that had 6 toes on one foot!! Breed to yellow dogs the pups would come out like a spotted hound!!With maybe 1 yellow in each litter!! I would take the yellow pups and raise them! I do not on any of them to this day so that should tell you they did not work!!When they got to a mature stage they would just go crazy!!
But in your case it might work!!I have seen it work in another case but there was only one pup raised out of that litter and it was a good dog!!

Chance, was the odd color comming from the outside dogs as in the one you bred to being not of your line?

[cward]

No I knew the history of all them dogs I breed to they were all yellow dogs and produed good pups before I breed to them!!I'm not sure why they spotted up but firgured it was from a gyne that was clashing with how tight breed she was! This gyp is breed way to tight!! I breed another gyp on purpose full brother to full sister!!Had a pair of the pups raised them to a year old and was hunting them they were goofy but hunted good then breed accidently to each other there was one pup my sister got her because she did not want me to do away with the pup!!So she is truly double inbreed and will flat work a cow!!But her bell don't ring all the time!!That is when I decided to breed her back to an out side male!!It never worked!!

[sfboarbuster]

I'd say go ahead and do it Lynel, if you are going to keep the whole litter might as well do it and see how they do!