"Better than what I got"

[Kessling Kennels]

Noah,

How far are you from Cocoa,Fl

I just ordered a new Diamondback Airboat.
Should be ready around the 12th of May.
Coming down there for a week or so.

[Reuben]

Noah, no need to apologize...I do respect and usually agree with how you think...

I will give this example

I purchase a well bred basset hound and would like to train him to run against the greyhounds and I am very rich. I hire the best dog track trainer and I spend millions on training and feeding my dog.

You have a proven line of racing greyhounds and after a year we meet up and have that race.

It doesn't matter how much money or that I had the best trainer in the world you know the end result. The greyhound won and my Basset is still a slow Basset compared to the racing dogs but might be the fastest Basset around.

Either way he is still a cull when it comes to racing.

I bred hard hunting long range hog dogs.

Now I am going to focus on breeding gritty stop a hog quick type of dogs. The type of dog I envision is a dog that will basically run a hog a long ways if needed but should stop it at the first oppurtunity. I think that these dogs will not have that cold nose but I will be looking to get as cold a nose as possible.

I think that the average dog can smell about the same but it is genetics that decides whether a dog responds to the scent or not. Strictly my opinion, just my belief.

[t.wilbanks]

I agree... just trying to explain to myself how the nothing-bred dogs I've been around became hog dogs... cuz it dang sure wasn't genetics...

Know an old outlaw that right now I could take a golden retriever to and in a couple yrs he'd be a top notch hog dog... some people can just make a dog...

Noah,

I have 2 pits Im going to send to ya.
I would like for them both to bay and get them to range out a little farther, They are both alittle close range for me.

Haha!  ...You do realize I am an ex-horse trainer...    For the right  $$  I can train those pits to do anything you want  

Ive got a pomeranian, a sh!tzu, and a chihuahua id like to have as my new pack....they shouldnt eat too much and be good in the thickets if trained right.... how long would it take him to have em ready???

[Noah]

'Bout an hour 45 from where I hunt...

Ask the shop manager if he knows Noah... he and I caught some cattle together on a river a while back    ... He makes some fine boats!!!

[Kessling Kennels]

Shop Manager?
Bobby=Owner?
Scooter=Manager?

They are some nice boats this will be my 5th Diamondback from them.

[Noah]

Alright, alright... if yall are gonna give me a basset hound and a chitzu as proof that they can't be trained to be a hog dog... well, that just ain't fair 

I agree that one(including myself) wants to start with the best available to him... but my point is that at some point, good training takes some dogs beyond genetic predisposition.

Kessling, can't remember his name to save my life... older guy, 65ish,  soft spoken, wears an old mini brim "cracker style" black felt hat... hell of a nice guy... he used to be a big hog hunter, now his son does a lot down thata way.... if he even still works there, been a few yrs since I saw him

[geronimo]

ok wait a minute i have read this and correct me if im wrong noah, maybe this is an example of what the genuis is trying to say in laymens terms? he had his ellie dog which i read on here a long time ago was a mix breed coyote dog his wife picked up in front of a grocery store? now we all have heard this story many times... noah put this dog in the woods countless hours and many miles on hogs she learned that he wanted her to stop and bay hogs so over time and many moons this dog and noah found and stoped and bayed many of hog. now that dog was not line breed she was just a stray. but she wanted to please her master and with alot of woods time and a good dogman she made a dog. is that the point???

[Reuben]

I agree that one(including myself) wants to start with the best available to him... but my point is that at some point, good training takes some dogs beyond genetic predisposition.

x2

Noah, what type of horses did you train and for what?

[Bryant]

Can someone give examples of how you train a dog to hunt, or train one to hunt better?

My "training" (if thats what you choose to call it) has always solely consisted of providing repeated exposure to allow the dog to develop and refine the skills that he/she was born with.  I have raised a lot of puppies over the years, and to this day have been unable to make one hunt to my satisfaction that wasn't born with the desire to do so.

I can take a set of pups at +/- 8 months old to the woods that have never had a hand on them, turn them loose and sit on the tailgate watching for a while and within about 5 times of doing this tell which ones were born with it.  So far in the litters I have raised, I haven't been wrong.
 

[Reuben]

Can someone give examples of how you train a dog to hunt, or train one to hunt better?

My "training" (if thats what you choose to call it) has always solely consisted of providing repeated exposure to allow the dog to develop and refine the skills that he/she was born with.  I have raised a lot of puppies over the years, and to this day have been unable to make one hunt to my satisfaction that wasn't born with the desire to do so.

I can take a set of pups at +/- 8 months old to the woods that have never had a hand on them, turn them loose and sit on the tailgate watching for a while and within about 5 times of doing this tell which ones were born with it.  So far in the litters I have raised, I haven't been wrong.
 

[/quote

Bryant,

I can't speak for other breeds or strains but I used to identify which pups trailed and winded and ranged out a little between the ages of 8 weeks to 12 weeks. At 4 months I took them to the woods and identified who rolled out and went hunting. I like breeding natural ability and not dogs that need losts of exposure.

This testing/training can identify the great ones but some that do not show much can be good at a later date.

[Kessling Kennels]

I have culled some of the So called best lines out there because they did not have enough hunt.

I have a buddy that came to me in 2004 and said he found the best line of BMC's out there and the breeder guarantees them ALL to turn out.
He wanted to buy the whole litter(7) and talked me into partnering with him.
We pd alot for these pups.
Out of 7 pups my buddy still has 1 left and I would not feed her to this day.

Bottom line is "If a dog don't have the drive to hunt" It does'nt matter what line they are from.
Most of your great dogs are not ones that were hunted once or twice a month and sitting on the chain the rest of the time.
They are the ones that belong to owners that have countless hours in the woods.
And yes there is exceptions to all.

[chainrated]

I agree... just trying to explain to myself how the nothing-bred dogs I've been around became hog dogs... cuz it dang sure wasn't genetics...

What you said here proves how the "want to" of a dog is what it really takes. Even those nothing bred dogs that have the want to can make a hogdog, I've seen dogs from the pound make a dog.  But without that want to I don't believe any man can train a dog to hunt or be a hogdog. If you figure it out you can ride around picking up stray dogs and in no time be a rich man..
When you do get that dog with the want to and you want to capitalize on it and reproduce it then linebreeding is what will do it. Take him and breed him to a linebred female that's what you like and linebreed from there, That's what will give you consistant hogdogs. But take that dog and breed him to a bunch of non related scatterbred dogs and you will be spinnin your wheels and no amount of training will make your wagon roll, IMO...

[chainrated]

the breeder guarantees them ALL to turn out.

That right there is all you need to hear to know someone is full of BS..

[Kessling Kennels]

Start your own and CULL HARD. You will be happier in a couple of years.

[Bryant]

... but every day I'm lookin' for that "better" dog, be it a old line bred dog or a wild dog runnin' loose in the woods... I will hunt and incorporate into my program any dog I feel brings something to the table...

Another thing I might add, is people have to keep in mind when breeding that your not necessarily breeding the dog in front of you as much as you are breeding all that is behind that dog.  You chances of taking a scatterbred dog, breeding it and having it reproduce itself with much consistancy are VERY slim.  If that superstar dog comes from a line of so-so dogs, or if that dogs parents and it's littermates are just so-so dogs, good luck is all I'm going to say.

I'm also always on the prowl for better, but what interests me more than any particular dog is a particular line and I'm not speaking of a "registry" or "registered dogs" or anything like that.  I want to know a dogs ancestry...how it's parents and grandparents hunted.  What are it's littermates like?  How tightly bred is the dog?  Knowing this information will give you a lot better idea of what to expect.

I've said it before, but I'll breed a so-so dog from a bad to the bone, established, linebred line anyday before I'll breed to a scatterbred superstar.  Just my $.02

[Reuben]

... but every day I'm lookin' for that "better" dog, be it a old line bred dog or a wild dog runnin' loose in the woods... I will hunt and incorporate into my program any dog I feel brings something to the table...

Another thing I might add, is people have to keep in mind when breeding that your not necessarily breeding the dog in front of you as much as you are breeding all that is behind that dog.  You chances of taking a scatterbred dog, breeding it and having it reproduce itself with much consistancy are VERY slim.  If that superstar dog comes from a line of so-so dogs, or if that dogs parents and it's littermates are just so-so dogs, good luck is all I'm going to say.

I'm also always on the prowl for better, but what interests me more than any particular dog is a particular line and I'm not speaking of a "registry" or "registered dogs" or anything like that.  I want to know a dogs ancestry...how it's parents and grandparents hunted.  What are it's littermates like?  How tightly bred is the dog?  Knowing this information will give you a lot better idea of what to expect.

I've said it before, but I'll breed a so-so dog from a bad to the bone, established, linebred line anyday before I'll breed to a scatterbred superstar.  Just my $.02

x2 you about said it all right there.

[slimhogdog]

This a good post

[BOBDOG]

I asked an "old timer" one time. What to do to make a hog dog? He said, "Son, you gatta' wear out a pair a'boots"

[t.wilbanks]

ok wait a minute i have read this and correct me if im wrong noah, maybe this is an example of what the genuis is trying to say in laymens terms? he had his ellie dog which i read on here a long time ago was a mix breed coyote dog his wife picked up in front of a grocery store? now we all have heard this story many times... noah put this dog in the woods countless hours and many miles on hogs she learned that he wanted her to stop and bay hogs so over time and many moons this dog and noah found and stoped and bayed many of hog. now that dog was not line breed she was just a stray. but she wanted to please her master and with alot of woods time and a good dogman she made a dog. is that the point???

Coyotes have to "hunt" to survive, so ofcourse they are born with the "want to"......

[Hawkins]

Coyotes have to "hunt" to survive, so ofcourse they are born with the "want to"......

Replace the "want to" with "have to"