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Reuben
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« Reply #60 on: April 30, 2011, 01:36:27 am » |
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[quote author=Noah SO.... Basic animal psychology 101.... "When training all living things, make desireable actions easy... undesireable actions difficult... consistency over time creates ingrained habits unbeknownst to said specimen"... Pavlov's dog at it's most simple... Noah, I agree with most of what you are saying but I would prefer to breed natural ability and that will minimize how much training will be involved. If it takes hundreds of man hours to train a dog to hunt and 3 to 4 years for the dog to be a decent hunter then I don't want it. Breeding mediocre begets mediocre. The pups will require the same training and time as there sire and dam. Totally unacceptable to me. Breeding for natural ability will produce the same ( Natural Ability),especially if line breeding and inbreeding. I only keep pups that have natural ability because I don't have the space for one of those slow maturing dogs. Besides, dog food is expensive. My ultimate goal is to feed a dog that gives me great pleasure when I am around him. This type of dog will be a dog that hunts well and looks good doing it. He also is one that is an early starter because I want this dog to be good enough for breeding, hunting and look good to boot. The all around dog...  Taking it to a higher level like you are talking about I will tell you this right now. The dog knows that you take great pleasure in him so this will up your game as well as the dogs. If I don't like the dog it will not perform to its full potential because it knows I don't like him, besides, there is always a reason why I don't like a dog. This dog only stays long enough until I can replace him with a better specimen. I use the pups hunger and boredom for my advantage when training them. I really don't train but expose the pups to certain conditions and the results from each pup tells me which will make a hunting dog and which might be the best. However, I have seen pups that I graded low and they made top dogs. But the ones I score high usually make hunting dogs. When I was a kid I hunted almost every day and all I had were mutts and they were all good dogs for the style that I hunted them. There was a huge incentive for them to be good because they ate what we caught otherwise they would go hungry. The other reason why I thought they were good is because we hunted almost every day. These dogs read my body language and I was their leader. Hand signals and a pst here and there and a few yips and we caught lots of game. So yes most dogs can and will hunt... Still taking it to a higher level I will say that the Mama dog hunting evey day and eating the game that she hunts will make the pups better dogs when born. The smell that excites her will excite the pups and all types of chemical reactions are taking place and It is my belief that the unborn pups are picking up on this. They are connected to the mama dog... Then taking the pups when they are old enough to keep up makes them better dogs. I also believe that a kid that hunts his dogs on a regular basis can make top dogs. As a kid when I stepped off in the woods I became an intense predator... This I believe made my dogs the best they could possibly be. As a grown up I can't get in that zone...  We as humans are brilliant compared to most animals and through evolution animals have learned to survive and part of this survival is a higher level of mental telepathy that we have not understood yet. This higher level of awareness is to make up the difference in brain power. Dogs can read our emotions as well as our body language and especially our tone of voice. They know when we take pleasure in them as well as when we do not. If I said I got 100% hog dogs in a litter you probably wouldn't believe it...  Well I did after 15 years or so...But did it by culling hard and making sure I used dogs from within the family and these were selected from high scoring pups turned hog dogs. When breeding redbones all dogs are red maybe a different shade of red but red. This does not make them hunting dogs but it is easy to breed red redbones because it is visual. I say at some point it becomes easier to breed for hunting traits within a strain if all the breeders are solid hog/hunting dogs... This is harder to do because some people will breed because it is a pure bred or it is registered but the dog doesn't hunt. Hunting traits are not so obvious so some breeders over look some of these traits. Therefore, some breeders breed a higher percentage of culls....Breeding for color is visual but breeding for hunting traits is a little more tricky thus more culls in this area... Getting back to the Redbones... Cross that redbone with a plott hound and in the first generation the litter will be multicolored. Do this a few times with other breeds mixed in and you don't have consistancy any more. The same with hunting traits... That genius horse trainer you talk about probably was one of the best... Therefore I will venture to say that he had access to the finest horses and stables, training arenas and what not.. This is clearly an advantage but his reputation enabled him to get the best horses to train from the rich folks. Not only that but he probably had an eye for a horse and he only took on the horses that would make winners upping his winning percentages and of course upping his game... The bottom line... A great hunting dog is born not made... This is the way I see it. |
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« Last Edit: April 30, 2011, 05:55:37 am by Reuben »
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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geronimo
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« Reply #61 on: April 30, 2011, 04:59:17 am » |
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byrant, does his hired hand start his dogs for him to in a pen or woods or are you saying these dogs as pups because they are so linebreed dont even need to be showed their way just drop them in the woods and wait??? wow them are some jam up dogs im missing out on this linebreed thing.
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Reuben
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« Reply #62 on: April 30, 2011, 05:11:19 am » |
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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Bryant
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« Reply #63 on: April 30, 2011, 09:51:36 am » |
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byrant, does his hired hand start his dogs for him to in a pen or woods or are you saying these dogs as pups because they are so linebreed dont even need to be showed their way just drop them in the woods and wait??? wow them are some jam up dogs im missing out on this linebreed thing.
None of his dogs have ever set foot in a pen. When they're old enough to go, they start in the woods behind the older dogs. When they hit the ground, they are anxious to go and usually have no problems with them wanting to hang around. That's the genetic part. As far as dropping them in the woods and waiting, thats the only way we hunt. I don't walk with dogs or let them work ahead of an ATV. No better or worse than the way anyone else does it, just our style and preference. Linebreeding has no affect on how good his dogs are, it just helps keep them that way. With any type of breeding program you can't start with trash and end with something spectacular. The main purpose of linebreeding is simply consistancy and usually people who are serious about a line breeding program can quickly tell you the foundation dog they started with which is the one they are constantly striving to reproduce. |
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A truly rich man is one whose children rush to fill his arms even though his hands are empty.
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geronimo
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« Reply #64 on: April 30, 2011, 10:47:30 am » |
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i agree with putting the pups with older dogs thats also how i hunt to start dogs except sometimes i road them sometimes free cast sometimes send them on a fresh track etc.. just depends what property i am hunting to how i hunt my dogs. but at some point in time your buddy had to spend some woods time with the foundation dog because they werent just born all knowing? now i know a older dog can be a great teacher but a dog handler, or trainer call him what you want has to be around to evaluate and to refine or make proper adjustments maybe switch things up but my point is a dog can be trained to some degree...jmo
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scdogman
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« Reply #65 on: April 30, 2011, 12:08:06 pm » |
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Noah
You posted that you know an outlaw hunter that could take a golden retriever and make a top notch dog?
What do you consider top notch?
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BarrNinja
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« Reply #66 on: April 30, 2011, 07:43:22 pm » |
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Noah, I wish a beaver would look at me the way your beaver looks at you! Seriously, this has been a good thread to keep up with. Better than goof TV!  |
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"No man should be allowed to be President who does not understand hogs." - President Harry Truman
“I like hogs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Hogs treat us as equals” - Sir Winston Churchill
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Noah
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« Reply #67 on: April 30, 2011, 11:12:13 pm » |
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Noah
You posted that you know an outlaw hunter that could take a golden retriever and make a top notch dog?
What do you consider top notch?
For every good answer, first, there must be a good question...  THAT is a good question ScDogman.... I have a lot of thoughts on the subject... However, when pointing out the different "types" of top notch dogs... it is very hard not to ruffle feathers in the process... ... When I hopefully have some time(and more engery ) tomorrow, I'll get into all that  Noah, I wish a beaver would look at me the way your beaver looks at you!
Ninja, that's the oldest trick in the book... just got to wiggle your finger and say "come" ... Once they understand that concept, they won't take their eyes off a ya'!!!! HAHA!!!  |
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Welcome to the Gun Show
Noah Metzger 352 316 8005
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Bryant
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« Reply #68 on: April 30, 2011, 11:18:13 pm » |
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...but at some point in time your buddy had to spend some woods time with the foundation dog because they werent just born all knowing?... They weren't born all knowing, but they WERE born with what my oldest son calls "a big engine" and an intense desire to go. The woods time spent with any dog should never be time spent trying to teach them to hunt, but rather teaching them what is and what is not the intended quarry. How to do it more effeciently is the part that comes with lots of exposure (which is lots of woods time I guess you could say) |
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A truly rich man is one whose children rush to fill his arms even though his hands are empty.
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geronimo
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...but at some point in time your buddy had to spend some woods time with the foundation dog because they werent just born all knowing?... They weren't born all knowing, but they WERE born with what my oldest son calls "a big engine" and an intense desire to go. The woods time spent with any dog should never be time spent trying to teach them to hunt, but rather teaching them what is and what is not the intended quarry. How to do it more effeciently is the part that comes with lots of exposure (which is lots of woods time I guess you could say) i agree with that. man this ha been a good post with some good thought. again anything i have stated is just my opinion or what ha worked for me but at the same time im open minded to hear what others have to say... i like to learn new stuff i guess you could say. |
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Reuben
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[/quote] i agree with that. man this ha been a good post with some good thought. again anything i have stated is just my opinion or what ha worked for me but at the same time im open minded to hear what others have to say... i like to learn new stuff i guess you could say. [/quote] x2 I agree... Noah, rest your brain and then give us the rest of your analytical, philosophical and theoretical view on training a dog versus natural ability/instinct. I can agree on this... The good trainer with a young dog that has been born with the natural instinct to want to hunt will bring out the best in that dog. The wrong trainer with the same dog can ruin that dog. Some will cull this young dog because it is trashy. |
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« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 06:22:24 am by Reuben »
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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geronimo
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i agree with that. man this ha been a good post with some good thought. again anything i have stated is just my opinion or what ha worked for me but at the same time im open minded to hear what others have to say... i like to learn new stuff i guess you could say. [/quote] x2 I agree... Noah, rest your brain and then give us the rest of your analytical, philosophical and theoretical view on training a dog versus natural ability/instinct. I can agree on this... The good trainer with a young dog that has been born with the natural instinct to want to hunt will bring out the best in that dog. The wrong trainer with the same dog can ruin that dog. Some will cull this young dog because it is trashy. [/quote] reuben i agree and would also add the wrong trainer or person might not put the dog in good hog sign or on hogs i have seen this where they take their pup to a deer club see old sign and dont know how to read it like two day old rooting or 12 hr old track and they put the young dog down and he dont take any thing no where comes back a bit later and they say he dont hunt well my opinion is you dont know how to hunt... you didnt give the dog the best chance to start especially with young dogs i dont care how well bred they are you gotta build their confidece in the beging to make them think every time they hit the dirt they will find a hog if they hunt jmo...but again alot of this is someone who dont understand starting dogs..but i guess like stated earlier if you have older dogs that are proven you can use them to help train but not everyone has that option |
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WAR EAGLE
Hog Dog Pup
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A fresh opinion from someone that has none of the experience of you hunters, so thats why its free. A basset hound will never outrun a greyhound, but I do believe that you can train a basset hound to chase a rabbit in a circle to the best of his ability. When comparing a scatter bred cur to a cur with proven genetics I belive in 3 -5 years like Noah said you could have comparable dogs. I believe the scatter bred cur will take a lot more commitment to training and take a lot more experience to perform at the level of the cur with proven genetics. But at the end of 5 years I believe both dogs could perform at the level that would be expected from a finished dog. I believe the problem is even if the dog owner is a person who can train the scatter bred dog to the best of his abilities, that most hunters aren't going to make this type of commitment to one dog because even once he is a jam up dog his offspring will be a crap shoot. I think with specefic attention most curs could be trained to do what is expected of them because of there willingness to please and all curs should have prey drive straight from the factory it just might need to be fine tuned. But IMO the dog with proven genetics is going to give you what you want faster and provide a solid foundation for breeding.
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Purebreedcolt
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The more I think about what yall are saying the less I know lol dang noah ur brain is deep and so is some of u others. I just know most the dogs left on my yard have some type of line breeding in their back ground where the scattered one have been culled
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Reuben
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A fresh opinion from someone that has none of the experience of you hunters, so thats why its free. A basset hound will never outrun a greyhound, but I do believe that you can train a basset hound to chase a rabbit in a circle to the best of his ability. I totally agree with this...If I was in the market for a retriever I would probably be looking for a lab puppy from a long line of hunting back ground. If I needed a gaurd dog I would be looking for a Rott or Doberman from gaurding stock. No AKC champion stock... |
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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BarrNinja
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A fresh opinion from someone that has none of the experience of you hunters, so thats why its free. A basset hound will never outrun a greyhound, but I do believe that you can train a basset hound to chase a rabbit in a circle to the best of his ability. When comparing a scatter bred cur to a cur with proven genetics I belive in 3 -5 years like Noah said you could have comparable dogs. I believe the scatter bred cur will take a lot more commitment to training and take a lot more experience to perform at the level of the cur with proven genetics. But at the end of 5 years I believe both dogs could perform at the level that would be expected from a finished dog. I believe the problem is even if the dog owner is a person who can train the scatter bred dog to the best of his abilities, that most hunters aren't going to make this type of commitment to one dog because even once he is a jam up dog his offspring will be a crap shoot. I think with specefic attention most curs could be trained to do what is expected of them because of there willingness to please and all curs should have prey drive straight from the factory it just might need to be fine tuned. But IMO the dog with proven genetics is going to give you what you want faster and provide a solid foundation for breeding.
I appreciate everyone's post but Silverton Boar Dogs 1st post and this one from War Eagle sums up my thoughts pretty dang good. |
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"No man should be allowed to be President who does not understand hogs." - President Harry Truman
“I like hogs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Hogs treat us as equals” - Sir Winston Churchill
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scdogman
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There is a reason why some young pointing puppies(8 weeks) will point on bird scent without any training the first time they are exposed. Or a young retreiver pup will retreive all day without getting bored.Or a coonhound hound pup with tree on a scent for hours without ever having game shoot to it.
By theory, we are saying that a "expert trainer" can train any dog to be as good as a dog bred to perform one task for numerous generations. I wll put up money and take that bet. Just name the price.
First I would love to see a Goldern Retrieve turn into a catch dog.
Second, I would love to see a pound pup turn into a cast into a big block of woods a go deep with or without sign. I would love to see him cold trail and leave on walking old tracks(6 to 10 hour range) and put hogs to it. I would love to see him run 6 to 10 hours on running hogs with or without them baying.
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Reuben
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There is a reason why some young pointing puppies(8 weeks) will point on bird scent without any training the first time they are exposed. Or a young retreiver pup will retreive all day without getting bored.Or a coonhound hound pup with tree on a scent for hours without ever having game shoot to it.
By theory, we are saying that a "expert trainer" can train any dog to be as good as a dog bred to perform one task for numerous generations. I wll put up money and take that bet. Just name the price.
First I would love to see a Goldern Retrieve turn into a catch dog.
Second, I would love to see a pound pup turn into a cast into a big block of woods a go deep with or without sign. I would love to see him cold trail and leave on walking old tracks(6 to 10 hour range) and put hogs to it. I would love to see him run 6 to 10 hours on running hogs with or without them baying.
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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ole shep
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Bought plott puppies . But doesn't mean I would not feed a pound dog if it would find and bay a pig.
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There is nothing a dip of snuff won't make better. Bow hunter. Bend it and send it. WWT approved
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scdogman
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Why did u buy plott? Take them back, I'll get you some pound pups for half the price. If there is not a difference why pay more money for plotts.
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