"Better than what I got"

[uglydog]

Noah you have put alot of trouble thinking it.
Your Parelli experience atleast gets you to thinking about it. Did you see the show where Parrelli and Ceasar Milan came together to work dogs and horses together?
I have arguments monthly with dog trainers that now want to expand into "hog Dogs" they are good traioners and get a dog to do about anything building from the dogs physocolgy and figuring out what makes each dog tick, will determine how to get the most out of them. However the Gurus that all these trainers follow are usually the big name EGO driven German style trainers, and I will give the germans alot of credit they can find and cull to get very,very hard dogs, and are very particular about their breeding, but they do have"TRAINED or CONDITIONED DOGS" that were bred for Drives and traits that are not the same as what are used in an independeant dog that does not look for supervision and that does not work for rewards given from a human accomplice. HUNT drive is different that prey drive, and I will argue that until I am blue in the face. Tracking and searching are all with the intent of getting that "good boy" at the end of an excersise. How many trained tracking dogs are going to run for miles without being conditioned to do so? they will come back looking for the reward, a hunting dog looks for a reward in the hunt itself, not from a human, and that is genetics not taught, trained or conditioned. Yes I believe you can be a succesful hog hunter, and catch hogs with a conditioned dog. Or you can breed a dog thats natural instincts trump the ability to train/condition. I can get on asoap box on this subject in a hurry, so let me get back to the point, of the trainers who now offer "HOG DOG training" they are of the mindset, that you have to "work and condition these dogs" and I have been there and done that myself, I enjoy working the dogs, but I/We am not able to see instintively the dogs true breeding of these dogs coming through when they are conditioned behaviors take over and that makes the dogs that they will be breeding from these program trainable and not Natural instinct, there comes many times in the woods when "Common sense" makes a dog respond a certain way to determine the outcome. that may be the difference in the dog deciding to take the trail 40 ft after the hog breaks and quit, it may be the difference of the dog being so hooked up he will use every skill he has from tracking, winding, that does not finish this particualr hog, or the down right true instinctive "Hunt DRIVE" that you cannot condition into that dog starting to make loops of 300 yds and 500yds and 700 yds until he finds scent again and then is able to track/wind that hog and find taht hog was smart enough to circle back and hold up before moving out. All the Conditioning/training in the world won't help a dog in this situation with out the "Breeding" of intellegence and pure instinct to go to the next level. CONDITIONING to scenarios and training to particular skills, can't prepare you for each and every situation always being different, and to "THINK" to counter act the challenges of dealing with another thinking animal(s) all at the same time. We as Humans the most intellegent beings cannot do it, SO HOW CAN YOU TRAIN OR CONDITION FOR THIS?


For  those that think a dog cannot be born to hunt hogs, I disagree, very few are out there, But a dog that has never seen a hog, never been outside a backyard, until a year old and then when taken along on first hunt, is exposed to catching a hog with other dogs, and from that time on is striking and "holding bays" tahts pure genetics kicking in, The dog has a calling and may not be good at anything else, but one day the switch flips. I don'y have them that good, but that would be the goal, that the dogs are born with a calling and when exposed at the right time, the dog falls into place as if its never known anything else.
almost Any dog can be conditioned to "chase" a pig, almost any dog can be conditioned to bark at a hog, bite, trail one, but that does not make a hog dog! if you don't know the difference, well then you are not a dog person. A dog born of the skill to know how to "bay" and not just bark it a skill, if you don't know the difference, well you are clueless. I have had some pretty off the wall breeds that I could find and catch hogs with, they got the work done but they were not hog dogs.

Another thing Science cannot determine the soul and will of an individual, it does not matter that they think they have a way to measure how much a dog can smell, its like the difference between a man that can work with his hands and a man that spends his life behind books and schools, he may be a scholar but they have the same IQ. Common sense and book sense, two twin brothers physically challenged and brilliant the other dumb as a box of rocks but an athlete. It happens, and some things will never be explained and I believe that they are not supposed to be explained otherwise we would not need to have FAITH

Noah, Now Use some Human Physcology, and think about it, Mother Nature is working against us, Or I should say we are working against her. THINK if you were going to Train and Get ahad of the game, you would start using Hog Phsycology, figure out how to whisper to the hogs, I believe that what Pat would do, as that would be the way to understand it naturally. As now you are thinking of of to use one animal against another in an unatural way, not for survival or coexistance but as a "Control method" and thats not natural thats human.

[Reuben]

Uglydog,

When I saw that you had posted on this thread I knew it was going to be good and rather long winded.

 

[Hog Dog Mike]

I have trained lots and lots of bird dogs and quite a few hog dogs. I have had lots of champion bred dogs and some of them were national champion bred. Without a doubt the all time sorriest dog I ever owned was bred the best. His sire was a national champion and his mother was a direct daughter of a national champion.

What I have found is that "want to will beat can do when can do don't want to". Rex was the well bred bird dog and I was determined that I would break him. I could get him to point and hold birds but he really never handled that well. At some point he was going to twist off and just do what he dang well pleased. His sister was exactly the same and threw it to her pups.

Once I wised up and culled that dog and changed my methods the quality of my dogs incresed by leaps and bounds.  After that when I got a dog I put them in front of a horse and they better run to the front and keep up with me. If they didn't they got culled. If you want to fool with them go ahead and be my guest. Seen lots of guys that had winners "all I got to do is get him to handle".  Good luck.

My best hog dogs kind of come here doing it. They liked me, wanted to please me, hunted for me, and were hog crazy. Had some that could care less what planet I was on and no telling which way they were going to hunt. As high as food is these days I cannot afford to mess with a whole bunch of dogs. I know there are guys out there that probably have better dogs than mine but they please me.

[Noah]

Haha!  I knew I could count on a strong opinion from you Krystal 

Brain... still.... worn out.... from bein' on call this wk.... 

When I get to feelin' like myself again, I'll try and clear up what kind of dog I'm talking about... everyone will see this differently based on personal experience, take what you will, leave the rest... that's what I do

[scdogman]

When u get time describe a top notch dog? 

Also I will take the bet about a golden as catch dog and the random pound pup turning into a "top notch" strike dog.

Scdogman out.

[Noah]

Noah, Now Use some Human Physcology, and think about it, Mother Nature is working against us, Or I should say we are working against her. THINK if you were going to Train and Get ahad of the game, you would start using Hog Phsycology, figure out how to whisper to the hogs, I believe that what Pat would do, as that would be the way to understand it naturally. As now you are thinking of of to use one animal against another in an unatural way, not for survival or coexistance but as a "Control method" and thats not natural thats human.

Had to re-read that to get it, sorry Krystal!    You have studied your Parelli, haven't you?   

I, however, have been privvy to what really goes on "behind the barn"... where the "real" training goes down.  "Real" does not really sell.  Just as people don't want to know where their hamburger comes from, neither do they want to know how Rugged Lark became the super horse that he is... It doesn't just "magically" appear, wrapped in celophane at walmart.... just as Lark wasn't "magically" trained to be what he is by Lynn Palm...   

What you point out is where Mr. Parelli and myself differed, and ultimately, came to an impass... again, it was not pretty...

I used to be MUCH more aggressive in my younger days... was quick to take the lead if you know what I mean....  I became aggrevated in Parelli's "passive" ways when i knew that he used much more "aggressive" techniques on his own horses... and I saw fit to demonstrate this on my own to the masses.... wasn't long and there was a split in the ranks... those that had gone to him, now asked me... "me" in my "vast" equine experience of all of 3yrs... ... (I was waaay too big for my britches...)

I've always been a quick student, and very good at finding what works...

On another man's ranch, with "his" students now looking to some 19yo punk for advice did not rest well obviously... and so there was the break....

I was asked to return when "submissive" lol... let's just say that never happened... 

Fact of the matter is, what he taught me, I took what I wanted... which is how to train an animal with utmost efficiency...   Sometimes that requires not being "completely natural" as defined by the public... as defined by nature, however, there are no rules 

[leonidas]

I agree 100% in this...

Ahhhh.... but what if I said that I believe all dogs posess the same basic fundamental skills/instincts....

... if one dog can smell one molecule out of a thousand and another can smell one in 1100... I say they can both smell a hog 

I've personally seen more trained hog dogs than purposefully genetic hog dogs.... as far as dogs I consider true hog dogs...

I believe we can tweak a dog through breeding to "start earlier", "hustle more", "take a colder track", etc... but I am really startin' to believe at some point you just got to pick one out and put the time in to make it great.

[sdillard]

TTT want to hear more on this one Noah.

[Noah]

TTT want to hear more on this one Noah.

Haha!  Thanks brother, but I figured everybody had probably had enuff of my bullchit for a while... 

I do have more to say, but I'm savin' my energy up for it... cuz I got a gut feeling it's gonna be one a lot of people will have intense opinions about 

[uglydog]

 Noah,
I was a waiting..... kinda dissapointed truthfully, I had an idea of what you would come back with... and all you got is "I ain't got nuff energy", I do have a whole other theory, one day when I have more energy and plenty of wind I will share with you on the conditioning/genetics also, beause I do feel you can go wrong/ overboard with the genetics its only theory after trying so hard to grasp more knowledge on the subect, where it will end up/go and the conclusion I have come too,

After all Parelli, Lyons,Anderson, Cox, Cameron, Reis and all the other 2nd generation "whisperers" took their info from the ones before them,  still brainstorming off one anothers, and applied what works in their areana, gave it a new name/twist and marketed it to sale it.
"Dog Trainers" do the same thing,

[Reuben]

Noah,
I was a waiting..... kinda dissapointed truthfully, I had an idea of what you would come back with... and all you got is "I ain't got nuff energy", I do have a whole other theory, one day when I have more energy and plenty of wind I will share with you on the conditioning/genetics also, beause I do feel you can go wrong/ overboard with the genetics its only theory after trying so hard to grasp more knowledge on the subect, where it will end up/go and the conclusion I have come too,

After all Parelli, Lyons,Anderson, Cox, Cameron, Reis and all the other 2nd generation "whisperers" took their info from the ones before them,  still brainstorming off one anothers, and applied what works in their areana, gave it a new name/twist and marketed it to sale it.
"Dog Trainers" do the same thing,

New names that mean exactly the same thing like:


1940's... shell shock
1960's... toxic shock syndrome
1980's... post traumatic stress syndrome

 

[TX HOG]

X2. I'd like to hear more also. Keep it coming Noah and Krystal

[scdogman]

I was waiting on the superior trainer to train a golden into a catch dog and a "top notch" strike dog.

[TX HOG]

I was waiting on the superior trainer to train a golden into a catch dog and a "top notch" strike dog.

.....