Hogdog culls or Cowdog gold

[Circle C]

I do know that Randy Wright breeds for the all around dog. If everyone who buys his line of dogs followed his methods then the majority of those Ben dogs would be top all around dogs. The problem is that when someone gets a pup that is a cull they breed it because it is a ben bred dog and they will get there money back and then some, thus, there goes the line of dogs that Randy has culled hard for.

One of my hunting buddies dad raises quite a few PBR bulls, and he just traded Randy a few bulls for quite a few dogs....
Included in this deal was a "STUD" dog, a "BROOD" bitch

According to him, the Stud and the Brood have had no type of hunting experience... So why are they being used for breeding?
They may be out of proven lines, but neither have proved themselves...

If hes breeding dogs with no experience, exactly how "proven" is his line??

That easy, his line is 100% proven.....  It's proven to make $$$$$

[t.wilbanks]

I do know that Randy Wright breeds for the all around dog. If everyone who buys his line of dogs followed his methods then the majority of those Ben dogs would be top all around dogs. The problem is that when someone gets a pup that is a cull they breed it because it is a ben bred dog and they will get there money back and then some, thus, there goes the line of dogs that Randy has culled hard for.

One of my hunting buddies dad raises quite a few PBR bulls, and he just traded Randy a few bulls for quite a few dogs....
Included in this deal was a "STUD" dog, a "BROOD" bitch

According to him, the Stud and the Brood have had no type of hunting experience... So why are they being used for breeding?
They may be out of proven lines, but neither have proved themselves...

If hes breeding dogs with no experience, exactly how "proven" is his line??

That easy, his line is 100% proven.....  It's proven to make $$$$$

Exactly!!! 

Most of these big breeders are breeding for papers and looks, which is worthless in the woods, besides having a good looking dog under your feet.... 

I forgot to mention that a young well started cowdog was included in the deal, and he wont even look at a cow.. 
I wonder if he is out of the Stud or Brood they got??  I may have to look into this alittle more...

[jerryg]

Once again,…. No disrespect to anyone:

We all breed for different objectives; I guess I have always had an issue with the term “All around Dog”.  In my opinion, if I state I have an all around dog in the ranching environment, then that dog should be able to perform and excel at any given task within that environment, if you do not do blood tracking or tree squirrels, hunt rabbits, tree coons, then I don’t think you can claim that you have an all around dog, ….and remember, this is one dog performing and “excelling” at these different tasks……… not this dog hunts hogs and this dog finds cows and this dog blood trails…breeding and consistently  producing  dogs that are excelling at all disciplines. 
OR
Is the term “All around Dog” breed specific?
I don’t want a dog that is good at many disciplines, I want a dog that is great at one discipline….maybe I have screwed up breeding this way, but it’s what “I“need.   

Jerryg

[jerryg]

Is it deer season yet...I need to put some dogs on some wounded deer and get off the computer...

Jerryg

[Circle C]

Some people want a "Jack of all trades, master of none" type dog, while others want them to excel at a given job.


I personally do not believe there is a dog born than can excel at all things cur dogs are used for.   Sure some may be great hog/cow dogs, but lack in the blood trailing aspect, or maybe they aren't worth a flip in a pen...


I'd rather have a jack of all trades, but it's because I don't want to have 30 dogs on the yard.  We have a dog that can pen cattle, work sheep, bay hogs, and trail deer. She's not great at any of the above, but she does all well enough to earn her keep... I think that's the type of dog the old timers had too.

[TColt]

I think if you have a dog that is excellent at hog/cattle, you could teach them to run a blood trail pretty easy. They may not be the best at it but they can get the job done. I like the jack of all trades dogs because I cant afford nor do I have room for a ton of dogs. But my dogs will be masters at catching hogs. Hopefully one day I will have some dogs that are masters at hogs and cattle, then can do whatever else I might need them to do, like blood trail. I got a buddy that his first hog dog is now 10 yo and he retired him and trained him as a blood trail dog and he is an excellent dog on blood trailing and could still be an excellent hog dog if need be.

I have been out with Paul, Silverton Boar Dogs, and watched his dogs (even the young year old dogs) go out and work cattle, and they are masters at it. He can call them out by name, and they are excellent at their job. Then we take those same dogs hog hunting and they are 500 + yards out and dont touch a cow.

It takes a dog with true brain to be able to be a master at two + trades, but it also takes one heck of a handler. Someone who spends every day with their dogs, and someone who culls hard. Im not saying that a great handler can take any ol dog and make them a master at cow and hog with a great handle on them too. But the right dogs with the right person can do some amazing things.

I do personally think it is easier to make a good hog dog than a good cow dog. But I also think that when it comes to stopping and baying a hog, sounder, stray cow, or herd of cattle, the technique is interchangeable. Working wild cattle will make working a hog easy for a dog.

[warrent423]

I agree that handle is everything when trying to work cattle or hogs with the same dogs.

[t.wilbanks]

" I believe it is impossible to breed a dog that is great at all disciplines "

 " I would think it impossible to breed a top-notch all around dog that excels at any given task. "

Well Sir's I respectfully disagree 100%, The men who trusted on the early BMC ( or Catahoulas for that fact ) demanded much to help them survive rough unsettled country and wouldn't/couldn't keep one string of cow dogs, one set of guard dogs, one set of tree dogs, one set of hog dogs ect. They kept very few dogs and those few were required to excel at many given task, perhaps we have lost sight of that and have bred the dogs down instead of up?

Here is a thought....

Back in the days when people were using dogs to help survive, they werent looking for a bmc or cat that would find hogs or bay cows...Pure bred dogs with papers were no where in their minds at that time....
How many of their dogs do you think they used on just hogs, cows, squirrels, etc..
What ever that dog went out and found/caught was usually dinner... trash breaking was no concern and would hinder what they needed/expected out of the dog....

In todays world, we dont rely on dogs as they did back then. And breed, papers, color, size, etc. are more sought after than drive, range, bottom for many buyers/breeders... Therfore, todays dogs are a hell of alot better looking, but the drive and hunt has been lost in most of them  

[Reuben]

When I was a kid in the 60's we didn't have pure bred dogs but every dog we had earned its keep because if it wanted to eat it had to catch game. They weren't specialty dogs but they were trained in the way of the ranch and farm life. I could herd the cows with then and chase the neighbors hogs out the fields and blood trail wounded deer for us. and kill coons an possums that tried to get in the chicken coop at night etc. etc.. Killed tons of rats in the barn with them that were eating our grain.

[waylon-N.E. OK]

bayed hard hog dogs- Thanks I was starting to think I was a one legged man in but kicking contest 

I don't think I have the type of dog I am talking about  YET, but I know I am close enough with my dogs to make it happen one day, It don't bother me if other folks think it can't be done or that it is out of reach. If that type of dog as easy to find we wouldn't be talking about it right now, I ain't scared to cull, ain't scared of hard work and am not blind to my dogs faults. But that type of " Old Yeller " dog is what I'm after, it's my goal and I won't be knocked off course by discouragement.

I know an old man from right here in Oklahoma who told me he once started 3 litters of pup's all born around the same time from one male and 3 different gyps, there were near 30 pups at the beginning of the summer, by a year old he had culled all but 4, by 2 years old he had 3 left. He said " you are gonna have to leave your heart in the house and keep a sharp axe if your gonna raise good head dogs "

I respect all opinions expressed here and am not arguing with any one or there way of doing things, but I believe if your gonna have dogs that are better than the next man's then your gonna have to cull harder, work harder, hunt more and spend more time with your dogs than the next guy will. Oh and pray for a lot of guidance cause I'm to dumb to do it on my own 

[FLBayNSlay]

I know down here in FL alot of Cow dog culls are used for hog hunting. Most of them are real rough medium range curs from whats left of old stock. Alot of ranches will not part with there dogs or puppys for any amount of money. If your lucky they may Stud a male out to a friend or close partner. Im by no means a Cow dog expert but I grew up in Central and South FL where cattle and ranching is popular and have great respect for a good Cow dog. Most I have seen will work cattle or a hog but tend to prefer one or the other. As Reuben said some Ranches are smaller and jus need dogs to keep them close and move them, not necessarily go find them in thick under brush. My buddy is on several ranches as big as 30,000 acre's where the dog has to hunt and find the stray cattle. It is by no means any easy task. His dog excels at hog or cattle and is a BMC probly one of the best I have been around.

I prefer a dog with a lot of hunt and right now I currently own 3 full blooded Catahoulas. Two came from LA and the other from a ranch in S FL.  All of them will find and bay hogs, cattle, they will tree coons or possums, they would probly run a bear if I put them on it  I consider them trash broke because when I go to hunt hogs they know were hunting hogs. If I take them to cattle they know were herding cattle. I expect them to be gamey hunting dogs with the want to hunt WHATEVER I PUT THEM ON. I hunt places with cows and hogs and they know when that Garmin is around there neck were lookin for POPPA HOG!!!! 

[t.wilbanks]

  All of them will find and bay hogs, cattle, they will tree coons or possums, they would probly run a bear if I put them on it  I consider them trash broke because when I go to hunt hogs they know were hunting hogs. If I take them to cattle they know were herding cattle. I expect them to be gamey hunting dogs with the want to hunt WHATEVER I PUT THEM ON. I hunt places with cows and hogs and they know when that Garmin is around there neck were lookin for POPPA HOG!!!! 

Couple questions -

Do you purposely put them on a possum track? If so, why?
Do you use the dogs to go out and find cattle or just herd cattle in a pen or pasture?
Do you not put a Garmin on them when they are out finding cattle?

[YELLOWBLACKMASK]

Just curious. I have been watching the polls above. The catagory for completly culling without attempting a crossover to cattle is currently leading. Is this mainly because you have a make it or break it attitude or you just simply don't have a direct cowdog outlet to give them a second shot before you cull hard?

Great views so far.

[waylon-N.E. OK]

make it or break it attitude

[Bigdog]

its harder to find a good cow dog then it is a good hog dog.i mean a dog that will get on the front end and work a set of cows right.a dog that will bay tight when needed and bay loose and back up so u can drive cows when needed.i have helped drive cattle for miles in the mountians and a good dog is hard to come by.a good complete cow dog is hard to come by,good handle,brains,heart,bottom.just because a dog bays a cow dont make it a cow dog.one reason people thinks u cant have a dog do several things is because we dont use dogs like oldtimers used to.when i was a kid we ran deer with our hounds all during the day and coon hunted them at nite and never had a deer race.go gather cows with cur dogs one day and go hog hunting the next and ride rite thru cows.it called using a dog.not hun ting once a week or two times a week,its using a dog to fine tune them so they can b the best at what there doing.most dogs dont get used enough to ever b topnotch dogs.i think u can have all around dogs to a point.main thing is what there bred to do.

[Bigdog]

waylon when u get tired of them bm curs call me and ill set u up with some good hounds.lmao

[sfboarbuster]

I prefer a dog with a lot of hunt and right now I currently own 3 full blooded Catahoulas. Two came from LA and the other from a ranch in S FL.  All of them will find and bay hogs, cattle, they will tree coons or possums, they would probly run a bear if I put them on it  I consider them trash broke because when I go to hunt hogs they know were hunting hogs. If I take them to cattle they know were herding cattle. I expect them to be gamey hunting dogs with the want to hunt WHATEVER I PUT THEM ON. I hunt places with cows and hogs and they know when that Garmin is around there neck were lookin for POPPA HOG!!!! 

Matt, i'm your buddy, but I've got to call BS on this. Your two catahoulas from louisiana haven't found and bayed a hog on their own and you haven't owned Skeeter for more than 6 months. Have you caught a hog with only your dogs on the ground yet?

[t.wilbanks]

I prefer a dog with a lot of hunt and right now I currently own 3 full blooded Catahoulas. Two came from LA and the other from a ranch in S FL.  All of them will find and bay hogs, cattle, they will tree coons or possums, they would probly run a bear if I put them on it  I consider them trash broke because when I go to hunt hogs they know were hunting hogs. If I take them to cattle they know were herding cattle. I expect them to be gamey hunting dogs with the want to hunt WHATEVER I PUT THEM ON. I hunt places with cows and hogs and they know when that Garmin is around there neck were lookin for POPPA HOG!!!! 

Matt, i'm your buddy, but I've got to call BS on this. Your two catahoulas from louisiana haven't found and bayed a hog on their own and you haven't owned Skeeter for more than 6 months. Have you caught a hog with only your dogs on the ground yet?

   Kind of what i figured, but thats bad when your own buddy has to call BS on you!!!   

Thanks for trying to keep him honest sfboarbuster!!!

[FLBayNSlay]

I prefer a dog with a lot of hunt and right now I currently own 3 full blooded Catahoulas. Two came from LA and the other from a ranch in S FL.  All of them will find and bay hogs, cattle, they will tree coons or possums, they would probly run a bear if I put them on it  I consider them trash broke because when I go to hunt hogs they know were hunting hogs. If I take them to cattle they know were herding cattle. I expect them to be gamey hunting dogs with the want to hunt WHATEVER I PUT THEM ON. I hunt places with cows and hogs and they know when that Garmin is around there neck were lookin for POPPA HOG!!!! 

Matt, i'm your buddy, but I've got to call BS on this. Your two catahoulas from louisiana haven't found and bayed a hog on their own and you haven't owned Skeeter for more than 6 months. Have you caught a hog with only your dogs on the ground yet?

John you gotta start hunting with me more buddy, You cant expect to come hunt twice a year and expect to know what my dogs will and wont do.  Yes I have found and bayed a hog a few times with only Bubba on the ground I cant give you names of ppl that are there. The gyp isint far behind if the conditions are right. I havent owned Skeeter long but have hunted with him several years when my buddy owned him and the guy before that. I know what he will and wont do. All 3 dogs have bayed cattle, not going and finding just herding and grouping.

[FLBayNSlay]

  All of them will find and bay hogs, cattle, they will tree coons or possums, they would probly run a bear if I put them on it  I consider them trash broke because when I go to hunt hogs they know were hunting hogs. If I take them to cattle they know were herding cattle. I expect them to be gamey hunting dogs with the want to hunt WHATEVER I PUT THEM ON. I hunt places with cows and hogs and they know when that Garmin is around there neck were lookin for POPPA HOG!!!! 

Couple questions -

Do you purposely put them on a possum track? If so, why?
Do you use the dogs to go out and find cattle or just herd cattle in a pen or pasture?
Do you not put a Garmin on them when they are out finding cattle?

The point I was getting at was more along what Reuben was saying. I dont have 8 different dogs to do 8 differnt things.

-No I dont put them on a possum track or a coon track purposely 
-They do not go and find cattle, Im not a rancher or a cow expert. I just hunt a few places with cows and wanted to see what they would do. I believe my lead dog came from old cow dog stock. 
-No garmin needed when there herding cows, it would only say NEAR.