Am i the only one?

[Reuben]

you probably will not find higher standards than what I keep...but the dogs that come to mind are gone...and getting that quality of hog dogs doesn't happen over night...

but these pups showed me something I was real proud of this week...they caught 2 of 4 big sows in the thickest of thickets that we couldn't walk in on and the 2 wheel drive wheeler couldn't make it in... it took a 4x4 wheeler... about 30 or 40 acres of it and they hung in there and got it done...

[geronimo]

the woods i hunt most of the time u crawl through briars or catclaw vines and it sucks, now back to the original point, when a good help dog runs with a good strike/bay dog we almost always catch all the hogs we have bayed and can usually crawl right up to the bay to cut the catch dog loose. i belive the terrain u hunt and the pressure on the hogs u hunt play a big role in all this also. but it works good for me so i like to have a good help dog aROUND

 i belive the terrain u hunt and the pressure on the hogs u hunt play a big role in all this also. but it works good for me so i like to have a good help dog aROUND..

it was worth repeating...I have seen this system work...

A friend of mine had a dog that might find a hog once in a blue moon and if the hog broke he probably couldn't trail it much less find it...but when running with the pack, and he would make every step the pack made...he was the help dog that specialized in stopping a hog...

glad to know i aint the only one that thinks a good help dog is worth his feed if i hunted places the hogs didnt break and run on then i would understand not wanting to feed a help dog, but to many independent dogs just dont cut it where i hunt...

Where do you hunt?

Have y'all ever heard the term, "self fulfilling prophecy"? In breeding and raising hunting dogs, you will eventually reap what you've sewn. I think some people elevate a strike dog to some lofty post and accept many faults in dogs simply because they can find a hog. That's certainly not what I'm after.

Tshelly used the term "hog dog" earlier and that's my opinion as well. If we'd quit breaking dogs down into specialties and raise our expectations, you'd find that one of days, every dog you feed will be a hog dog.

Now as far as independence goes, every dog should honor the strike of it's pack mates, or shut its hog down awful quick. A few weeks back one of my gyps bayed a sow behind the house, and the other one had one bayed not a minute later. I went towards the younger dog first and as I glanced at the garmin I saw the older one moving slowly towards me but I figured she'd left her hog. After I legged that sow, I heard both gyps baying 40 yards from me. The older one had moved her sow toward the original bay! I didn't breed these, and I take no credit, but they've taught me that HIGH standards produce great results

  tebob i agree we should be striving for better dogs every time we make a breeding, but until you have nothing but true bad azz strike/bay dogs i think a good help dog is worth its feed. i have 3 dogs that will find and bay hogs by their self, but i have also had hogs break when they heard me or smelled me get close and break and never get bayed up again, and i have a good friend/hunting partner that has a dog we can turn out and she will stay with our strike/bay dogs and help keep a good hog bayed until we were able to get 10-20 yrds and turn loose the catch dog. in my mind shes worth feeding. im sure u are proud of the older dog you have that will herd one to you thats awsome but my mutts aint that good man. but im trying lol

[geronimo]

the woods i hunt most of the time u crawl through briars or catclaw vines and it sucks, now back to the original point, when a good help dog runs with a good strike/bay dog we almost always catch all the hogs we have bayed and can usually crawl right up to the bay to cut the catch dog loose. i belive the terrain u hunt and the pressure on the hogs u hunt play a big role in all this also. but it works good for me so i like to have a good help dog aROUND

 i belive the terrain u hunt and the pressure on the hogs u hunt play a big role in all this also. but it works good for me so i like to have a good help dog aROUND..

it was worth repeating...I have seen this system work...

A friend of mine had a dog that might find a hog once in a blue moon and if the hog broke he probably couldn't trail it much less find it...but when running with the pack, and he would make every step the pack made...he was the help dog that specialized in stopping a hog...

[geronimo]

the woods i hunt most of the time u crawl through briars or catclaw vines and it sucks, now back to the original point, when a good help dog runs with a good strike/bay dog we almost always catch all the hogs we have bayed and can usually crawl right up to the bay to cut the catch dog loose. i belive the terrain u hunt and the pressure on the hogs u hunt play a big role in all this also. but it works good for me so i like to have a good help dog aROUND

 i belive the terrain u hunt and the pressure on the hogs u hunt play a big role in all this also. but it works good for me so i like to have a good help dog aROUND..

it was worth repeating...I have seen this system work...

A friend of mine had a dog that might find a hog once in a blue moon and if the hog broke he probably couldn't trail it much less find it...but when running with the pack, and he would make every step the pack made...he was the help dog that specialized in stopping a hog...
    reuben i have seen a few guys where i live that hunt in big deer leases and not alot of hogs but what they do is cast a few cold nosed hounds and 1 or 2 curs that will run with their hound and when the hounds jump the curs shut the hogs down, and they manage a few hogs like this, its not how i hunt but it works for them and in my opinion they r all help dogs lol

[justincorbell]

Wasnt tryin to start any fights and im glad that it hasnt come to that, its nice to hear diff. Perspectives. The origional reason for this post is more or less due to the fact that i have seen a recent upward trend in "finished help dogs" being sold on this site for up to 400$!!!!! This blows my mind!

We as dogmen owe it to ourselves and each other to continually improve the dogs we produce, in my honest opinion this means culling substandard stock and "accidental/mistake breedings" out of unproven dogs. I did this 1 time(my duck and dove dog, akc lab tied up with a pit/curr mix that doesnt hunt) complete accident and i didnt see it happen, just had a good idea of it, out of 11 pups only 1 was worth keeping and he is my upcoming duck/dove dog.....i will never EVER do that again! I have been down that road and will tell anyone that will listen to bring em to the vet and ABORT. My creed now days is only buy dogs or pups from proven parents/ reputable hunters and cull hard.

 I hope this makes sense and does not offend but There is no place for a help dog in my yard, feed is too expensive these days to feed a dog that wont find and bay its own hog and honor anothers bay, I dont think its askin too much of em. to each his own and different strokes for different folks!


"the sun is shining somewhere in texas" -Jason Boland

[Reuben]

Wasnt tryin to start any fights and im glad that it hasnt come to that, its nice to hear diff. Perspectives. The origional reason for this post is more or less due to the fact that i have seen a recent upward trend in "finished help dogs" being sold on this site for up to 400$!!!!! This blows my mind!

We as dogmen owe it to ourselves and each other to continually improve the dogs we produce, in my honest opinion this means culling substandard stock and "accidental/mistake breedings" out of unproven dogs. I did this 1 time(my duck and dove dog, akc lab tied up with a pit/curr mix that doesnt hunt) complete accident and i didnt see it happen, just had a good idea of it, out of 11 pups only 1 was worth keeping and he is my upcoming duck/dove dog.....i will never EVER do that again! I have been down that road and will tell anyone that will listen to bring em to the vet and ABORT. My creed now days is only buy dogs or pups from proven parents/ reputable hunters and cull hard.

 I hope this makes sense and does not offend but There is no place for a help dog in my yard, feed is too expensive these days to feed a dog that wont find and bay its own hog and honor anothers bay, I dont think its askin too much of em. to each his own and different strokes for different folks!


"the sun is shining somewhere in texas" -Jason Boland

I agree with what you are saying...but sometimes a good me too dog is worth feeding but never worth breeding...always best to breed for all around hog dog for striking, baying, and stopping a hog...

[halfbreed]

well justin you bring up a good point . but let's see a finished [ help dog ]  you could actually call a well started hog dog . and with more woods time and hog tracks should become the allmighty strike dog lol . and to be a well started hog dog that goes to the bay and helps contain the hog has got to be a year or so old , and 400.00 isn't too far out of the standard price range for a dog that old . now me i don't own any help dogs just future hog dogs i believe in keeping dogs that will do it all when needed and the young dogs should be able to step it up when called upon to do so . help dog = future hog dog , shure some will never step up and should be taken out of the gene pool . you just have to look beyond this new age terminology . dogs are pack animals with a pecking order take out the number 1  and number 2 will normally pick up the slack

[justincorbell]

well justin you bring up a good point . but let's see a finished [ help dog ]  you could actually call a well started hog dog . and with more woods time and hog tracks should become the allmighty strike dog lol . and to be a well started hog dog that goes to the bay and helps contain the hog has got to be a year or so old , and 400.00 isn't too far out of the standard price range for a dog that old . now me i don't own any help dogs just future hog dogs i believe in keeping dogs that will do it all when needed and the young dogs should be able to step it up when called upon to do so . help dog = future hog dog , shure some will never step up and should be taken out of the gene pool . you just have to look beyond this new age terminology . dogs are pack animals with a pecking order take out the number 1  and number 2 will normally pick up the slack

I agree, just kinda throws me off lol


"the sun is shining somewhere in texas" -Jason Boland

[Acwells0808]

I like a help dog I have been in a bind before strike dogs are looking for pigs and they find there own .....now who is there to help hold it you got 3 strike dogs they all bay up seperate u need help for them I have been saved by a help dog before so I think they are great and will always have a couple

[Reuben]

well justin you bring up a good point . but let's see a finished [ help dog ]  you could actually call a well started hog dog . and with more woods time and hog tracks should become the allmighty strike dog lol . and to be a well started hog dog that goes to the bay and helps contain the hog has got to be a year or so old , and 400.00 isn't too far out of the standard price range for a dog that old . now me i don't own any help dogs just future hog dogs i believe in keeping dogs that will do it all when needed and the young dogs should be able to step it up when called upon to do so . help dog = future hog dog , shure some will never step up and should be taken out of the gene pool . you just have to look beyond this new age terminology . dogs are pack animals with a pecking order take out the number 1  and number 2 will normally pick up the slack

Ok Halfbreed,

for me a one year old pup better be hunting and running at least 20 minutes on a hog before dropping out...and this pup better be going all the way by 14 months...but this pup probably won't be a breeder...but his brother that goes all the way at 10 months old might be the lucky one to carry the line...Just how I see it...but I do not consider these pups as me too dogs/help dogs...

A good help dog is at least 2 years old and he probably will never be a strike dog because he is as good as he will ever be....I think some people confuse this type of dog as a well started dog and will advertise it as such...and someone buys it to be a future strike dog and will be very disapointed...or...the seller believes he has a good strike dog because he makes every step the strike dogs make...but this dog will never find a pig or even hunt alone...and sometimes the seller is actually trying to pull a fast one and make some fast money on a cull...

so to me there is a difference between an up and coming pup and a good help dog...because the pup is still improving and maturing and the help dog is already all he will ever be...

[tnhillbilly]

No help dogs for me, only up and comers.

Why not strive for dogs that can do it all?

How many of these help dogs "ARE" getting bred?

I cant afford to feed "help" dogs, but I have before and it cost just as much to feed one that can do it all.

Are all my dogs great? Nope, but if they cant produce game, I move on to the next prospect.
  If your content with hunting help dogs and enjoy hunting with them, hunt them up. Your the one buyimg the feed. We all had to start somewhere. And I didn't get what ive got overnight, and still not where I want to be.

[T-Bob Parker]

Look, plain and simple, people will defend help dogs because they own them and feel a sence of pride in that good ol me too dog, BUT have any of you ever heard of anyone saying "man I am really short on help dogs, I think I'm gonna breed a couple of my crummy no hog findin me too dogs so I'll have more help dogs around."




Oh, wait. Actually I think that happens everyday and they end up in classified ads 

[smacdown]

dogs are pack animals with a pecking order take out the number 1  and number 2 will normally pick up the slack

X2

[Brushraider]

Before I ask I will start by saying I just recently got into this and a young guy gave me 7dogs, two pups 4grown bay dogs a pitbull some gear. I have only caught 9hogs with them jn the past month and a half I've had them. My point is I don't know much, so forgive me if this is dumb question. I here y'all call these dogs help dogs that occasionally find a hog or dogs that work a hog but wont one, Is this really a help dog or just close range dog getting out hunted? I've been reading a lot on here and some of y'all have some long range dogs, is it possible that your help dogs would be strike dogs with a different pack of dogs? The guy who gave me mine said they will find hogs and finish a track but never get the chance with his dogs.  the one gyp that has found 80% of the hogs gets out there and goes. Had her at least a half mile away bayed up along with younger ones...they just don't track one as quick. Maybe it's the hound in her Im not sure but she take a track at full sprint. Either way they were more help dogs for him but they are catching me hogs. I know 9hogs is nothing but I'm sure proud of them. again just my two cents and when it comes to hog hunting you all probably know way more but I had to ask after reading this

[Reuben]

brushraider,
in my opinion 9 hogs in six weeks is pretty good for anyone...usually the best strikr dogs will always strike first...leave the best dog at home and then you will know if another will step up and strike almost as good...or you might find that you have one strike dog and the rest are help dogs...

 

[geronimo]

Look, plain and simple, people will defend help dogs because they own them and feel a sence of pride in that good ol me too dog, BUT have any of you ever heard of anyone saying "man I am really short on help dogs, I think I'm gonna breed a couple of my crummy no hog findin me too dogs so I'll have more help dogs around."




Oh, wait. Actually I think that happens everyday and they end up in classified ads 

i dont own any me to or help dogs but i have a good friend who has a good help dog and i wouldnt cull it, never said it would be bred and he has never sold ANY dogs so my point was in my opinion a good help dog is not a cull. and we both have dogs that can get a hog struck and bayed by their self but some times that help dog has helped us produce caught hogs when with out her i belive the hog would have broke and not bayed again...
 not everybody hunts the same places and not all big smart hogs will stand easy even with a good hog dog baying him, jmo

[Reuben]

Look, plain and simple, people will defend help dogs because they own them and feel a sence of pride in that good ol me too dog, BUT have any of you ever heard of anyone saying "man I am really short on help dogs, I think I'm gonna breed a couple of my crummy no hog findin me too dogs so I'll have more help dogs around."




Oh, wait. Actually I think that happens everyday and they end up in classified ads 

i dont own any me to or help dogs but i have a good friend who has a good help dog and i wouldnt cull it, never said it would be bred and he has never sold ANY dogs so my point was in my opinion a good help dog is not a cull. and we both have dogs that can get a hog struck and bayed by their self but some times that help dog has helped us produce caught hogs when with out her i belive the hog would have broke and not bayed again...
 not everybody hunts the same places and not all big smart hogs will stand easy even with a good hog dog baying him, jmo

x2...

[Brushraider]

brushraider,
in my opinion 9 hogs in six weeks is pretty good for anyone...usually the best strikr dogs will always strike first...leave the best dog at home and then you will know if another will step up and strike almost as good...or you might find that you have one strike dog and the rest are help dogs...

 

You might be right.I will have to try this once my young males are completely trashbroke. Two of the three have found a hog in between me and my gyp but I she is the only dog that comes back when other dogs are messing up. I haven't used the shocking system he gave me yet as I was advised not to do it until they have been on more hogs with me...

[Noah]

Haha, sorry Justin, wasn't tryin' to call you out brother... sorry if it came out that way!  T-Bob touched on it, but all I was trying to do was illustrate that ANY of us that run more than one dog at a time are relying on a "help dog" in some sense...

I believe we are all pretty much on the same page when it comes to help dogs in general... it comes down to evaluation of each dog INDIVIDUALLY to accurately judge a hog dog...

Even if you dump 10 dogs on the ground every time, typically, ONE dog is gonna carry the work load... one dog is gonna strike first, bring a good hog to bay faster(my favorite quality  ), stick longer, etc, etc... 

THIS is what I think we all strive for, everything else is, by default, on some level a "help dog".

Good post by the way.

[justincorbell]

Haha, sorry Justin, wasn't tryin' to call you out brother... sorry if it came out that way!  T-Bob touched on it, but all I was trying to do was illustrate that ANY of us that run more than one dog at a time are relying on a "help dog" in some sense...

I believe we are all pretty much on the same page when it comes to help dogs in general... it comes down to evaluation of each dog INDIVIDUALLY to accurately judge a hog dog...

Even if you dump 10 dogs on the ground every time, typically, ONE dog is gonna carry the work load... one dog is gonna strike first, bring a good hog to bay faster(my favorite quality  ), stick longer, etc, etc... 

THIS is what I think we all strive for, everything else is, by default, on some level a "help dog".

Good post by the way.

Makes sense to me noah, i kinda figured thats where you were goin with it, just wasnt sure. and no harm no foul!


"the sun is shining somewhere in texas" -Jason Boland