Ben this Ben that.......

[Wmwendler]

He sounds like a good one.

Waylon

[AnthonyB]

hog runner......I didn't mean the ones I had seen were straight catch dogs.  They were just catchy which to me means baying too tight, putting teeth on a hog when its standing at bay, catching single hogs out of a group and busting the rest.  Just a general lack of finess and stock holding ability.  Thats what I've seen out dogs who carried the Ben lable.  Sure you can "bay" hogs like that but you will end up with allot of single hog bays when there was a group to start with......AND is it really a bay up with dogs like that?...... or is the hog just too busy defending himself to run off like he wants to.  To me a true bay up is when the hog (or cow for that matter) is standing relatively still and calm, paying attention to the dog but not defending itself from it.

A man can use those kind of catchy dogs for hogs and if he does not care about busting up groups of hogs and just wants to catch a hog or two.  But you cannot use them on cattle because busting up the group will get a dog culled quick.  Thats why you don't see many these "Ben dogs" in the back of a stock trailer with a few horses.

Waylon

Waylon, what kind of been dogs have you seen??? Not trying to be rude, but I have never seen a true Ben bred dog, work the way you are describing. What I have seen are dogs that are as rough as the animal they are chasing want to get. I would surely hope that my dogs would force a runner to stop rather than follow him until he wants to stop, because in this part of the country that would be never. The dogs I have seen pretty much work the same way on cattle as they do pigs, hunt them find them and group them if there is more than one. The only difference I have seen is with smaller hogs (0-100lbs) they will just catch and hold them. If a hog chooses to fight and try and break they will put teeth on them to keep him in his place, but if he wants to stand still they will loosen up and just bay him where he stands. I've seen my dogs bay from 2 to around 30-35 pigs and hold them in the pasture. While we do catch a lot of stag boars, a bay with multiple hogs is far from uncommon. As for who uses these dogs, when I began researching this line before buying one then several more. I went to some of the most experienced hunters and ranchers that I knew to see what they were using. What I found was that those that were serious hunters and had been doing it full time to help support themselves wanted a no nonsense dog that they could depend on day in and day out. While not all were Ben dogs a majority were. After having them for some time now I have seen the difference in those that hunt them and hunt other dogs. While I am NOT saying that this is the case in the responses to this post or others in this forum regarding this subject, I will say that from what I have seen are a lot of weekend warriors that either won't spend or don't have the money to spend on the dogs, so they knit pick and imagine any number of things to talk them down, wether it is about the dogs that they have seen or their account of the history of how this line came to be. The other thing I have seen are people claiming to have something that they do not. Had a guy on a hunt once that said he had a Ben dog, after asking how the dog was breed I figured out that the dog was a Ben dog because his dams great grand father on the dams sires side was supposed to be Ben bred, and blah blah blah. I guess I just think this subject has been beat to death already. If you don't like them don't hunt them, and if you don't like the price or can't afford it, don't spend it. Simple as that. A line that produced dogs that don't work would not have survived this long or be as sought after as they are no matter how good the hype was, and a pups will only cost as much as what someone is willing to pay for it. With the prices where they are, obviously some think they are worth it and like the way the dogs work. 
Anthony

[T-Bob Parker]

hog runner......I didn't mean the ones I had seen were straight catch dogs.  They were just catchy which to me means baying too tight, putting teeth on a hog when its standing at bay, catching single hogs out of a group and busting the rest.  Just a general lack of finess and stock holding ability.  Thats what I've seen out dogs who carried the Ben lable.  Sure you can "bay" hogs like that but you will end up with allot of single hog bays when there was a group to start with......AND is it really a bay up with dogs like that?...... or is the hog just too busy defending himself to run off like he wants to.  To me a true bay up is when the hog (or cow for that matter) is standing relatively still and calm, paying attention to the dog but not defending itself from it.

A man can use those kind of catchy dogs for hogs and if he does not care about busting up groups of hogs and just wants to catch a hog or two.  But you cannot use them on cattle because busting up the group will get a dog culled quick.  Thats why you don't see many these "Ben dogs" in the back of a stock trailer with a few horses.

Waylon

Waylon, what kind of been dogs have you seen??? Not trying to be rude, but I have never seen a true Ben bred dog, work the way you are describing. What I have seen are dogs that are as rough as the animal they are chasing want to get. I would surely hope that my dogs would force a runner to stop rather than follow him until he wants to stop, because in this part of the country that would be never. The dogs I have seen pretty much work the same way on cattle as they do pigs, hunt them find them and group them if there is more than one. The only difference I have seen is with smaller hogs (0-100lbs) they will just catch and hold them. If a hog chooses to fight and try and break they will put teeth on them to keep him in his place, but if he wants to stand still they will loosen up and just bay him where he stands. I've seen my dogs bay from 2 to around 30-35 pigs and hold them in the pasture. While we do catch a lot of stag boars, a bay with multiple hogs is far from uncommon. As for who uses these dogs, when I began researching this line before buying one then several more. I went to some of the most experienced hunters and ranchers that I knew to see what they were using. What I found was that those that were serious hunters and had been doing it full time to help support themselves wanted a no nonsense dog that they could depend on day in and day out. While not all were Ben dogs a majority were. After having them for some time now I have seen the difference in those that hunt them and hunt other dogs. While I am NOT saying that this is the case in the responses to this post or others in this forum regarding this subject, I will say that from what I have seen are a lot of weekend warriors that either won't spend or don't have the money to spend on the dogs, so they knit pick and imagine any number of things to talk them down, wether it is about the dogs that they have seen or their account of the history of how this line came to be. The other thing I have seen are people claiming to have something that they do not. Had a guy on a hunt once that said he had a Ben dog, after asking how the dog was breed I figured out that the dog was a Ben dog because his dams great grand father on the dams sires side was supposed to be Ben bred, and blah blah blah. I guess I just think this subject has been beat to death already. If you don't like them don't hunt them, and if you don't like the price or can't afford it, don't spend it. Simple as that. A line that produced dogs that don't work would not have survived this long or be as sought after as they are no matter how good the hype was, and a pups will only cost as much as what someone is willing to pay for it. With the prices where they are, obviously some think they are worth it and like the way the dogs work. 
Anthony

Two things,
The Ben dog I personally had came either directly from Three rivers, or within a couple generations. It's not that they didn't work, just didn't work as well.

That's the second time I've heard someone say force a runner to stop rather than follow him till he wants to, if the working mans yellers that you've seen " followed a hog till he wanted to stop" then I hope you shot them. A dog don't have to get toothy with an animal all the time to make em obey, but in my experience, that's all the Ben dogs I've seen have in their arsenal. Granted, I haven't seen them all.

[BIG BEN]

 There has to be a reason why none of the ole timers that had a hand in the making of Ben have any blood from the particular dog in there lines. Why was there not a single ben bred dog at the last cow dog trials in Oklahoma? There has to be a reasonable explanation right.

[cward]

There has to be a reason why none of the ole timers that had a hand in the making of Ben have any blood from the particular dog in there lines. Why was there not a single ben bred dog at the last cow dog trials in Oklahoma? There has to be a reasonable explanation right.

Yea cause it was a cow penning contest not a cow catching contest.lol

[BIG BEN]

There has to be a reason why none of the ole timers that had a hand in the making of Ben have any blood from the particular dog in there lines. Why was there not a single ben bred dog at the last cow dog trials in Oklahoma? There has to be a reasonable explanation right.

Yea cause it was a cow penning contest not a cow catching contest.lol

LOL winner winner chicken dinner

[Wmwendler]

Since I don't like to hunt on the weekend.....does that exempt me from being considered a weekend warrior?

I'm Not bashing any dogs just speaking plainly about what I've seen in them, and everyone is welcome to hunt what ever they feel like hunting.  A man could even hunt with something crazy like number 2zoos or hounds if he feelt like it and more power to him.  I really can't say exactly what kind of Ben dogs I have seen.  Other than the endless ads for weatherfords been bred dogs in the thrifty nicle classifieds, they reall do not seem to be all that popular around here.  So what I have seen could be an uncharacterisit subset.  I really cannot cay for sure.  But I do know for sure the ones I have seen work, the dogs whose owners used " High % Weathords Ben breeding" as the identity with which they chose to describe them,  did not impress me.  They were one dementional, very rough baying, got cut up allot, lacked finess, and tended to bust bays.  Sure those dogs caught hogs but unless the hog was solo to begin with, that caught hog was usally a stragler which originated from a busted bay.  

Its very possible that I've seen some good dogs that have some percentage of Weatherford's Ben in thier backround, yet that fact escaped me because it was not the Sole Identity of those dogs.  It is also possible that the dogs I hunt share some common ancestors with the line of dogs which produced weatherford's ben. (From way back)  I say this based on some conversations I've had with people knowledgeable on those blood lines.  There is also the possibility that they don't share that common ancestry.  Which, really it makes no difference to me becuase the dogs I hunt have a more recent ancestry which is what I am really interested in.  The point is I was never impressed by any YBMC ive seen work that carried the lable of Weathorford's ben blood.  The idea that said dogs identities were based off of a single individual dog, makes me skeptical from the start.  And like I said the so called weatherfords ben dogs I've see did nothing to erase that skepticism, they reinforced it.   Now come to find out, that dog was originally culled for a reason which I would also cull a dog for.  
Waylon

[cward]

All im going to say is the been dogs were easier to get your hands on. Waylon me and you are not going to shuttle our dogs all over the country.  But my point is people who have been dogs more than likely have not seen any other TRUE blood lines work. Not trying to down grade anyone by saying that. There are some gentics out there in this world that are plum impressive. Ben is not one of them in my eyes.

[T-Bob Parker]

Well then Waylon and Chance let me ask this, is it possible for a guy who is willing to put in the hard work over several years to take the dogs that are most often available for sale and through an honest eye and a sharp shovel, build himself a better strain of working dog?

I've seen that I only know enough to be offensive and not enough to be helpful in most cases, so I will from now on stay out of these discussions and stick to joking around. 

[cward]

Yes Tbob but you said it a sharp shovel. If I pay 300 plus for a pup and raise it to a year old its hard to get that 5 dollar shovel out of the barn.  But it can be done. I know a guy here locally who has culled dogs he paid 2500 for he ain't rich he just has moral and want resale the dog. but he has some jam up dogs. Now he is breeding them. And getting some really good young dogs. So yes it can be done.

[Wmwendler]

Sure its possible t-bob.

But Just speaking for myself I would rather put the time and effort into getting to know the folks that allready have the better strains of working dogs, pay my dues with something other than cash, and earn the respect it takes to get ahold of dogs like that.  Then take those dogs I got from a good or excellent line, do my best to keep them that way, and stay gratefull to those to whom credit is due.  The old timers who made the great dogs what they are.

I would much rather do that than I would to take a set of mediocre dogs and try make them a better strain of dog.  Not saying the later way cannot be done, its just not my way.  The catch is, most people are impatient, they don't wanna pay the dues.  It seems like most people want the instant gratification of having thier OWN dogs. If and when they do get in on some good dogs, many of them are quick to give credit to themselves for the success of the dogs they own, rather than where it should be with the source of the dogs.  And then quickly alienate themselves from the source of said dogs and loose the resource/blood line they need to keep them going.

There is a stigma that the great bloodlines of dogs are hard to get ahold of, and held tight among those that have them.  And for the most part it is true.  But its not because the people that have great blood lines are stingy.  I'd say most dog men would welcome a person that was willing to earn thier respect, and get them started in some good dogs.  In the long run, that may represent a means of carring on the work that hes done over the years rather than letting it fade away as very often is the case.  And in the short run, its a means of creating a genetic pool of the same or very similar genetics that the old dog man can dip back into if he ever runs short on dogs and needs to do so.  The problem is finding that person whos patient and willing enough to pay the dues, earn the respect, and show he's interested in becoming part of that "community" of good dogs.  Its a commitment and said person has to realize he/she needs to become part of that "community" before they can get thier hands on said dogs.  And once they do be willing to accept the fact that having the dogs means they will be forever in debt to the person who they came from, the person who did all the hard work to get the dogs where they are.  What that "debt" means is treating the blood line with respect, always showing respect and credit to the source, not using the blood line to profit financially, and have a willingness to always help the ones that helped you get in the game.  Its a gift so to speak and should be treated as such.

Waylon

[T-Bob Parker]

Thank you both for the responses, I couldn't agree more.

[Americanlegendz]

All this talk about this Ben would love to see a pic.  Anyone have a pic?

[YELLOWBLACKMASK]

Cward and Wmwendler

Well put..... and sound advice from both of you last posts.

Shovels boyz keep em sharp with fresh dirt on the blades.   

[AnthonyB]

Tbob, did the dog you have come from three rivers, of something else?  Was it registered? I only ask to try and kind of pin point what kind of dog you had as far as breeding. And that was my point about a runner, while some will stop fairly quickly on their own others have no interest in stopping, and I don't have a use for a dog that won't stop one as quickly as possible. 
Anthony

[Mike]

Tbob, did the dog you have come from three rivers, of something else?  Was it registered? I only ask to try and kind of pin point what kind of dog you had as far as breeding. And that was my point about a runner, while some will stop fairly quickly on their own others have no interest in stopping, and I don't have a use for a dog that won't stop one as quickly as possible.
Anthony

Anthony, do you have these runner stopping dogs? If so, maybe you could bring them out sometimes, because I sure would like to see them work. I've got a few places where the hogs run like deer and no one has been able to "stop" them yet... only run the air out of them till they decide to bay.

[BIG BEN]

Sure its possible t-bob.

But Just speaking for myself I would rather put the time and effort into getting to know the folks that allready have the better strains of working dogs, pay my dues with something other than cash, and earn the respect it takes to get ahold of dogs like that.  Then take those dogs I got from a good or excellent line, do my best to keep them that way, and stay gratefull to those to whom credit is due.  The old timers who made the great dogs what they are.

I would much rather do that than I would to take a set of mediocre dogs and try make them a better strain of dog.  Not saying the later way cannot be done, its just not my way.  The catch is, most people are impatient, they don't wanna pay the dues.  It seems like most people want the instant gratification of having thier OWN dogs. If and when they do get in on some good dogs, many of them are quick to give credit to themselves for the success of the dogs they own, rather than where it should be with the source of the dogs.  And then quickly alienate themselves from the source of said dogs and loose the resource/blood line they need to keep them going.

There is a stigma that the great bloodlines of dogs are hard to get ahold of, and held tight among those that have them.  And for the most part it is true.  But its not because the people that have great blood lines are stingy.  I'd say most dog men would welcome a person that was willing to earn thier respect, and get them started in some good dogs.  In the long run, that may represent a means of carring on the work that hes done over the years rather than letting it fade away as very often is the case.  And in the short run, its a means of creating a genetic pool of the same or very similar genetics that the old dog man can dip back into if he ever runs short on dogs and needs to do so.  The problem is finding that person whos patient and willing enough to pay the dues, earn the respect, and show he's interested in becoming part of that "community" of good dogs.  Its a commitment and said person has to realize he/she needs to become part of that "community" before they can get thier hands on said dogs.  And once they do be willing to accept the fact that having the dogs means they will be forever in debt to the person who they came from, the person who did all the hard work to get the dogs where they are.  What that "debt" means is treating the blood line with respect, always showing respect and credit to the source, not using the blood line to profit financially, and have a willingness to always help the ones that helped you get in the game.  Its a gift so to speak and should be treated as such.

Waylon

X100 good post Waylon

[airduster29]

whens the hunt I have some dogs that would love to stop a runner

[Mike]

whens the hunt I have some dogs that would love to stop a runner

Whenever you can get down around Houston, come on. I want every one we start stopped.

One thing I've learned in all the years I've hunted is this... if a hog wants to run, it's gonna run. Just hope your dogs the bottom to stick with it until it bays.

I've been fortunate enough to have hunted with hundreds of people and probably thousands of dogs all over Texas. Any time I see folks say their dogs shut down running hogs, I just want to see them in action.

I like to see good dogs work... especially where hogs are spoiled from being dogged many, many years.

[airduster29]

well I defenantly am not worried about trying my dogs, they may turn the otherway when they see a tree or a slew coming from this desert but still wouldnt mind coming to play