old school logic versus new school philosophy

[goose]

i dont usually post much on here but spend a great deal of time on this forum looking around and reading. it has got me to wondering where has the old school logic gone, i'm talking about the tried and true methods that have been thrown out the window, i'm not trying to start any arguments or ruffle any feathers, but i enjoy talking dogs and of the days gone by with every old timer i have the chance and some of the things they say have really stuck out and have gotten me to thinking, and i wanted everybody elses opinions and thoughts......they never had "help" dogs, either the dog did the job or it didn't live period they weren't sold or given away as "help" dogs, they were culls plain and simple and were disposed of to keep those genetics out of the gene pool...you never heard of all these off the wall crosses, one of the old timers said that some of the crosses he heres of today had you mentioned them years ago you were laughed at and not thought very highly of, he said who on earth ever heard of cur x dane x ab x and what ever somebody else thinks they need to add in the mix crosses, that folks had been using good cur dogs or hounds of every color for years and a good solid bulldog be it pit or Ab and nowadays people are to worried about making their own cross and putting some off the wall name on it and breeding them for profit instead of production and last the subject of breeding always came up, he said people are to worried about the dogs percentage of certain genetics of whats popular and about what they've read on the internet that they have strayed away from keeping those genes pure and true and tested, just because a dog is out of so and so's male dog so and so, and so and so's gyp is a pup out of so and so's  male who is such and such % so and so doesn't mean their all going to make dogs that theres always going to be culls no matter the breed or line....just has got me to wondering where has all the old timers tried and true methods of the dog game gone versus some of the new school thoughts and philosophies....like i said i'm not trying to start an argument, point fingers at anyone individual, or ruffle any feathers, just would like to here what others have to say if anybody cares to elaborate on the subject........

[YELLOWBLACKMASK]

Well you might not post much.. but so far so good my man.

Preach on.....liking it immensely patna. 

[levibarcus]

Deep thoughts there man, lol, no but seriously, I know very little about hog dogging. Been at it 3 yrs now and know less than when I started it feels like but what you say sure makes good sense.

[MrsLouisianaHogDog]

I'm interested to hear any thoughts on this as well. Nice post!

[jimco]

This is my thoughts on the subject. I think a lot of the old timers had jamb up dogs and were very knowledgeable dog men. These men
raised and bred their own line of dogs and they had a system in place that worked for them and they were very successful.
   However, I don't think that all of them were equally successful, whether it be deer dogs, coon dogs, hog dogs etc. Through the years
if some of them felt their line was lacking they would try different crosses to get where they wanted to be. If crossing curs to hounds etc.
got them what they wanted then they were back on track if not they kept trying. One thing that has influenced all the change is, there is
a ton more people hunting with dogs today than there was back in the day. I think folks get started hunting with dogs and in this world of no patience we live in today, within 2 or 3 years they've done tried every breed under the sun. Next they start crossing with other breeds
that they hope will get them to where they want to be. And on the subject of breeding for profit, there is more people wanting to buy dogs now then ever. People that has been hunting for some time will not pay a lot for dogs but some one that is just starting and has caught the " fever " will pay top dollar, hence the motivation to breed for profit.  This Website for example has hundreds of people on it,
but there is only a dozen or so hunters that have a system in place and they are not changing nothing for they are exactly where they want to be with their program. The majority (though they will not admit it openly) are not where they want to be so they try different
things to see what will work.     I'm 50 yrs. old and don't hunt a whole lot but I do go every now and then with the younger folks and
they are very impatient. The properties we hunt hold very few hogs. if they have a dry run they are ready to get new dogs lol. I think
starting with the right prospects and learning and listening from the right people and weeding through all the bull chit is good start.

[buddylee]

Maybe "back in the day" they didn't have all the different breeds available that we do today. From what I've been told by older hunters is that it was much easier to catch hogs. Basically any old dog would do. Hogs pretty much always bayed up. I for one like different crosses. I also believe in tight bred dogs.

[reatj81]

You'll all have very good points.  I think in years past other breeds were introduced into a line to try and fill a void.   But more often than not that cross was kept hush, hush.   Over time and correct breading desired traits were achieved, while hiding the appearance of the outcross.   For instance if you bread white rabbits and wanted them bigger.   Well let's just say pink rabbits were bigger, you could make cross of white & pink achieving  larger rabbits & and over a few generations you could have them all white again and larger threw selective breading!   

Most of my dogs are around 1/4 hound.  Some of the pups show more hound traits than others.   If wanted to I could cull the ones that showed the hound ear.   Then cull by hunting abilities, keeping only the best.   And stay breading within the line and within a few generations it would be hard to see the hound in them.   But they would still be around 1/4 hound, with the desired traits.        Webster defines cur dog---- mongrel of inferior breeding---- so is that saying they are a cross?     I believe so until the desired traits were achieved then line bread to lock the gens down.   
Not picking on curs just an example, of a cross bread purified over the last 200 yrs.    Not saying I am correct, just a thought.

[Dino1]

The Webster definition does not mean the breed of dog(s) we call Curs. It is an insulting term for a mixed breed dog. Dog fighters use the term to describe a dog that quits in the pit. Curs are not an inferior breed of dog. In actualilty they are one of the healthiest, most versatile, and smartest. In regards to the earlier posting, most of the real old timers bred best to best. In a way this was a method of inbreeding because if a man had a good dog, the whole area bred to him and probably males and females that were bred by neighbors and friends were down from that superior dog anyway. Most (not all mind you) of the old time cur or catch dog breeders that I spoke to in Florida nd Georgia simply bred best to best. If there is one breeding system that produced a higher number of top dogs, we would all use it. Many of the so called highly inbred dogs we are sold by top breeders have fake pedigrees anyway and may well be an outcross. Many people used my stud dog in Florida and asked me not to talk about it. Why do you think that is?

[KevinN]

I'm waiting for Reuben to chime in, I'm sure he's putting his thoughts together on this post and will develop a good response (I'm never disappointed in Reuben's posts) ....or........maybe he's like me. I read the initial post. Read the responses that were made and I started one of my own. I put my thoughts together....typed....put my thoughts together...typed, deleted...typed...deleted, typed and deleted it all.

Jimco had one thing right for sure and I think any issues with the quality of pure bred dogs being run today go back to this....supply and demand. Now I'm not saying ALL the lines are watered down. There are still some great ones out there. One things for sure THERE ARE a ton of people who run dogs now days. I think it has become more of a hobby than a lifestyle and it shows.

BuddyLee also made a good point. Although I disagree with the breeds available part, his statement about catching hogs easier back in the day, I believe is probably true. I'm not gonna say that just any old dog would do but I will say this.....MOST, not all but most places have been dogged at one time or another and some places, though they still hold a lot of hogs have been dogged excessively. This has got to educate the hogs and make them harder to catch.

I think the combination of a watered down supply of dogs and educated hogs has led people to want to "improve" a breed of dog. Is it really necessary? Would a very strong breeding/culling program achieve the same goal? Probably, but it would definitely take longer and this is where the patience thing comes in. Like I said, I think more hunters think of it as a hobby than a lifestyle.

[DWEST]

I dont think there is anything wrong with making crosses if you have a goal in mind and thats what you are breeding towards.  Thats how many of the "cur" lines started back in the day, and thats why you see some variations from region to region IMO.

But, on the impatient part of it...what do you guys think of breeding younger dogs?  Seems some people might breed a 1-1/2 to 2yr old dog that is turning on good.  Now this might turn out good and it might not.  It could be breeding towards earlier starting dogs, but the line could have illness and durability issues show up at say 3-4 years old?

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[t.wilbanks]

But you also have to remember that the hog population wasn't near what it is now in a lot of areas...

Just like nowadays, Plenty of dogs will bark at a hog, and many can find one in a heavily populated area...

But you can't take " any ol dog" where hogs are scarce and bring home the bacon consistently...  

Heck a lot of em cant get it done where there is a hog under every bush!!  

[bigo]

The day is fast approaching when a man will have to breed inferior dogs just to able to hunt them. No hunt, no trailing, no bottom. If the day comes before I die, it's the last day I'll have a dog.

[Lance]

The day is fast approaching when a man will have to breed inferior dogs just to able to hunt them. No hunt, no trailing, no bottom. If the day comes before I die, it's the last day I'll have a dog.

Yes sir, you are right on the money. Places are getting smaller and and neighbors are getting less tolerant. It's getting harder and harder to avoid the trespassing tickets.

[TexasHogDogs]

I will tell you why the new school is doing it because they have no ideal what they are doing in the first place .  Its a perfect classic example of inexperience if you have no ideal what you are doing then you are just trying anything to get some thing to work with no ideal you are just making it worse and worse .

The new school does not want to put the time in , does not want to put the work in , does not want to put the money in , does not have any ideal of what it takes to breed family's of dog's , has no ideal of old school breeding , has no ideal of really how and when to even start dogs ,  does not know when enuff is enuff are when not enuff is not enuff and don't want to take the time to learn it .   This stuff takes years and years of hands on experience and the only short cut to it is if you know some old timer and he is willing to help you and teach you a few things and then most the time the new school is all in and bail out once they figure out not even half of what it takes and what they Ole timers have been threw to get these lines of dogs!

Times have changed big time from the Ole school .   The world is a lot faster place now rather than 30 40 yrs ago but the thing that has not changed is how long and how much work it takes to develop lines of great dogs and the two just does not mix !

There is not fast answer to great lines of dogs .   The answer is still the same as it was 50 yrs ago,  know how , hard work, time consuming , lots of money , dedication and so on , this is what the dog world has lost in this new generation and thats why there are so many dog culls and completely whole lines of dogs that are noting more than culls !

There is no substitute for hands on experience and the only way to get it ,  well you just read it !

[TexasHogDogs]

It is a rare person that really wants to learn the ole school ways and how it was really done.

Why do I say this ,  because I bred bulldogs for nearly 30 yrs and in those nearly 30  yrs I had dozens and dozens of youngsters that thought they wanted to learn .  Yeah it was great at first but then with in a year are maybe two the real truth came out and they all bailed each going his on ways for what ever reasons some had family problems and others had this and that . The same as the cur dogs and any other breeds.  It takes a special person and there may be one in a thousand to see it threw.

What biggest thing I use to get a kick out of is this.

You would help a man out teach him things and he would get a few good dogs and the next thing you know , guess what he knows more than you now and he would bust out on his own and doing good at first and bashing the damn man that give him his start .  Well I use to laugh because it was  inevitable he would come to a bitter end .  Because those dogs could only take him so far and then the knowledge of the person comes in and all the breedings he made fell apart and he soon became just another person that failed at the game of breeding great dogs right back were he started from.  While the line he had still lives on today in the hands of experience dog men .  I have had lots of them come back and to get back in the door but once the door was shut that was it.  All that bullnumber 2 they talked just came back to haunt them !

These are many real life experiences am telling you about not fake made up stories this was in the bulldog game and breeding dogs .

Don't burn your bridges people its a good lesson to learn in the dog game !

[Bigdog]

just because someone is old and has been doing sumthing for years dont mean ther doing it right.a dumass is a dumass know matter how old they are.its help if u have a wise older person who will take time to show u the ropes.

[goose]

i appreciate all the replies and in some way agree with everyones point of view, yes the hogs were easier to catch back in the day but have you put the consideration in that they might have been easier to catch because of GOOD DOGS, and "just any old dog" would do, they werent nearly as many culls around as there are today, back then dogs were a tool and a neccessity in which people used to make a livng and feed their families, and if the dogs didnt work they were killed plain and simple,it takes the same amount of money to feed a bad dog as it does a useful dog that is a vital piece of euipment in which they made their living.....and yes i realize that curs are nothing more than crosses of other breeds that have been fine tuned and purified to make them what they are, i understand that when they were lacking nose they might have bred some bird dog or hound into their lines or looking for more roughness and grit might have added some ridgeback or bulldog into their line but you better believe that they just didn't cross any old hound or bull dog or whatever they needed into their the dogs, the dogs they used as an outcross were the top notch of their game....as far as not having acess to as amny breeds as we do today, they didn't need them they used what was available and fine tuned it and perfected to suit their needs, we as dogmen today tend to forget that dogs were used as a means of life to make a living and not for fun and recreation......i guess its just my way of thinking and beliefs and i have been blessed to be born into a dog hunting family on both sides and am marrying into one and have always been around old school dogmen who knew what they were doing when they made a breeding decision

[goose]

yea big dog a dumd a$$ is a dumb a$$ and the same is said about a smart A$$ to, not calling you one so get your feathers ruffled but were talking about men and women who were successful at what they did, if somebody did the same breedings and training strategies as someone who did it and it didnt work for them then their the dumb one for trying it as well

[Reuben]

I saw this thread right away and did want to comment but I have been kind of busy...

so what is an old timer???it all depends on who you ask...Ask a 10 year old and he will say a 30 year old man is real old...Ask me and I will probably say someone from the 1940's and 1950s and before...

a dog man is a dog man whether it was back then or now...they are in for the long haul and it takes lots of work and lots of thought as to what gets bred etc...etc...

some folks get in to the dog game and the average length of time is 5 years before they get out...they get in for different reasons...a good example is someone goes on one hog hunt and now they want their own pack and then they start breeding dogs...  

what I perceive as old timers and how they operated is like this...I am talking about the true dog men...back then there was not much line breeding or inbreeding because that reduced the diversity of the gene pool...when that happens then there will be dogs that will be susceptible to disease and back then there were no vaccines...also not much information on breeding so outcrossing was the way to go...but that is not a bad thing because if all dogs are proven hunting dogs then there will be hunting dogs produced...but outcrosses produce a lower percentage hunting dogs because of the diversity...but back then it was a necessity to have good dogs because there wasn't room for pets...every family member had to contribute something to the house hold...culls were eliminated...

I do know that some guys were linebreeding in the 1960's but it was top secret and in the 1970's a few were catching on...As a young man I read every article I could find on hunting/working dogs and also on breeding better dogs...

I knew lots of dog men who were totally against any type of linebreeding even in the 1990's...I just agreed and did my own thing...I put down 5 pups on a hunt and the man asked me if I had 1 pup per litter that turned out and I didn't tell him they were littermates...he was one who believed in pure outcrosses...

What I see today are all these crosses to produce better dogs...it will never work if we are constantly doing that...

I like the mt. cur but the majority are too small or even too open on track...I chose to breed pure parker cur with kemmer mt. cur but I know what the mt. cur is capable of doing...I am breeding the best of this cross back to a good mt. cur and then breed that way...this way I can keep hunt and size in one package...I just want to breed a few good dogs for me and breeding for high percentage of hunting dogs in a litter gets expensive to do because it takes 3 or 4 generations of breeding related dogs to produce a high percentage of hunting dogs...and the dogs used for breeding must be of the highest hunting quality...I am not saying this is the only way but how many people know to do this or even care to learn on what is a better way...most I suspect just make an instant decision on a cross and go for it...

some want more grit and they breed a line of loose baying dogs to a pitbull that can't find his way back from a broken bay...if I were looking to make a cross like this I would use a leggy pit bull that caught and hunted and cross it to a line of curs that already had grit...

back in the old days folks had more land to hunt and less stringent laws but didn't have the information that is readily accessible today...so todays dogman has access to lots of information on breeding, but most don't have access to the hunting land...

I don't think that there is much difference in the dog men from back then and today...because in my mind I believe that a true dog man is one that is constantly looking to breed a better dog and then he is also doing all he can to bring out the best from within his dogs...

[YELLOWBLACKMASK]

back then dogs were a tool and a neccessity in which people used to make a livng and feed their families, and if the dogs didnt work they were killed plain and simple,it takes the same amount of money to feed a bad dog as it does a useful dog that is a vital piece of euipment in which they made their living.....

There it is folks.... finally someone throwed it out there.    TOOL. 

There is your ultimate differentiation.