Pen dogs?

[Myles Man]

...........a pen dog is a dog that performs great in a bay pen but not to good in the woods? A jam up bay dog is a good dog in the woods but don't really care to work in a bay pen?
I would figure if its good in a pen, its good in the woods. 
If you can, give me input/examples as to why its one, the other, or both.

[CutNShootHD]

Well, ive had it explained to me kinda like this: u can ruin a woods dog by it learning he only has to bay for a certain amt of time then it`s done, and the dog wont hunt cuz it expects a hog to be "handed" to it.  And that a pen dog wont hunt well for the same reasons, doesnt know how to use its nose, etc.  Now i have woods dogs, and one of them actually took 2nd place this.past saturday at a baypen, and i dont have problems with him in the woods.  I was also told a woods dog will keep lookin away from the hog, which is frowned upon in the pen, because they are used to a cd runnin up and coming in.  Bleu is a pretty dern good pen dog, and ruff as heck, but in my opinion is a good woods dog too.  He ranges well, takes only real fresh tracks, which is fine by me.  I would like to hear others opinions on this too.  I dont baypen my dogs a whole lot tho, i definitely  hunt them more often.

[dub]

A bay dog that looks back for the catch dog? That dog will get hurt. To me a pen dog gets lazy. They don't need to go look for a hog because they get delivered. I don't mind some pen work at first. That way you have a controlled environment so that nobody gets hurts. I also want loose baying dogs so I like to work them outside a small pen with the pig inside. But it is mostly to see what they do and can they hold a pig without touching the pig. I also want them to know what I want and they learn that in a pen. After they know pigs are ok to bark at I can trash break them. That is all the use I have for pen. I want to go catch pigs not play with pigs that are already caught. Now if you want to go to a pen knock yourself out.

[Reuben]

I like the pen to teach the pups how to bay and want a pig...once they got that down I want a bigger pig to teach them a little respect...

I also believe that the pen is good to teach the dog how much pressure to apply but also teaches the dog when/how to stop the hog and this is a big confidence booster for the dog...

too much pen work and the dog will lose interest in the bay pen but will still hunt in the woods...

there are some awesome pen dogs that you will stumble all over them when hunting because they won't get out from under foot...

there are some some awesome hunting hog dogs that won't bay much in the pen...most of the time it was because the pen was used too often and/or too long...

JMO, but that is what I have seen...

[KevinN]

I spent a little over a year hitting the competition pens. I would attend at least 1 sometimes 2 a month.
I enjoyed it a lot for various reasons.

Here is what I observed....and some of the opinions I heard.

1. MOST people with Jam up pen dogs....dogs that place on a regular basis and have a shot at getting in the money at the big show...would not even think of putting that dog in the woods. Purely based on the fact that the dog could die. You can make some decent money with a jam up pen dog, through winnings and selling puppies. (You won't find said puppies listed on this site usually).

2. MOST good woods dogs won't score well in the pen. There are exceptions, but the dog will usually bay loose or catch out. Sometimes they won't bay at all. It's funny...they are usually great hunting dogs but just don't know "why the heck am I in this pen".

I'm with Reuben as far as a pen being a training tool. I REALLY believe they are a great way to get your pups started early as well as a way to help in the early phases of the culling process (when you have a whole litter of pups).

As far as attending a baying or entering a dog/pup in competition...I think it's great. It won't hurt a pup to bay in competition a couple two or three times in his 5-8 month old stages. If nothing else it's great for socialization. As far as dogs go...I don't think I would make it a monthly thing for my woods dogs...maybe a couple times a year...but that's just me.

[mtarrant23]

People breed pen dogs to be pen dogs just like most of us breed them to be woods dogs I think they are both considered bay dogs but you have pen dogs and then you have huntin dogs a big difference with a few rare exceptions

[KevinN]

People breed pen dogs to be pen dogs just like most of us breed them to be woods dogs I think they are both considered bay dogs but you have pen dogs and then you have huntin dogs a big difference with a few rare exceptions

In not trying to be argumentative...your probably right for the most part, but....the guys that helped me get started way back when bred their dogs...looking to get great dogs...period.

That being said...all pups were started in the bay pen...if they had the knack at an early age...they stayed there until they proved otherwise. They used the pen as their culling system. If a dog wasn't going to be a good competition dog...he went to the woods, lol.

These guys caught plenty of hogs too. Just goes to show...good blood is good blood...there just comes a time when a decision has to be made as to where that blood will be better placed...woods or pen.

[cantexduck]

So your dogs came from pen dogs ?

  Cull bay pen dogs went hunting ?
  Just trying to understand your post.



 

[hillbilly]

I would never use a bay pen as a tool to cull my hunting dogs. IMO it should only be used to get pups started baying and then some might never bay in a pen. I have saw several good woods dogs never bay a hog in a pen. I have saw several mutts bay the hair off a hog in a pen.

[KevinN]

So your dogs came from pen dogs ?

  Cull bay pen dogs went hunting ?
  Just trying to understand your post.



 

Not mine now...well...actually, my CD is 1/4 Catahoula...he's out of that blood, lol.

Maybe I didn't explain it properly..... The dogs in their yards were all around great dogs. They were Catahoulas. They ran a competition pen but also participated in others competitions...including Uncle Earls. They weren't just superior bay pen dogs but they would place in the other pens on a regular basis and always had a shot at money at Earls.

Their woods dogs found pigs on a regular basis and there weren't many long chases. It was a rare occasion to lose a hog. They weren't catchy but just worked a pig hard.

Anytime they made a breeding they would start the pups in the pen. Pups that showed potential as a competition dog kept getting worked and started getting run in competitions. The pups that didn't show to have that "bay pen style" were usually kept on the yard and were woods trained.

Make more sense?

[KevinN]

I would never use a bay pen as a tool to cull my hunting dogs. IMO it should only be used to get pups started baying and then some might never bay in a pen. I have saw several good woods dogs never bay a hog in a pen. I have saw several mutts bay the hair off a hog in a pen.

I don't think I said dogs....I believe I said it was a very good way of culling (selecting which pups your going to keep) pups when you've got a litter. The ones that start early TYPICALLY make dogs. Of course there are exceptions and even slow starters will make dogs as well....but....if you don't keep the entire litter I think the bay pen is a good tool to help you decide.

[Jared H.]

I'm confused..... The ones that didn't do good in the pen weren't the culls but were made into hunting dogs???

[KevinN]

I'm confused..... The ones that didn't do good in the pen weren't the culls but were made into hunting dogs???

Ok....let me break it down further. To get in the money in the competitions...a dog has to bay with a certain style. Are you with me?

They have to be energetic...they have to have a certain amount of gritt...but not to much. They have to work REAL close. I'm talkin nose to nose. They have got to have focus. These things make or break a dog in competition.

In any litter of pups, attributes are going to vary to a certain degree...ever so slightly. This can make a difference in a competition dog. Out of a litter of pups you may have 1 dog that will place on a regular basis and the rest never see the money.

Like I said before....these dogs were good blooded. They produced some very good woods dogs. But if you've ever been around competitions...you should know it takes a certain something to succeed.

[Jeep]

What do y'all think about workin pups an tuning older dogs up in a 2 acre wooded pen with one hog in it

[Reuben]

What do y'all think about workin pups an tuning older dogs up in a 2 acre wooded pen with one hog in it

if you don't hunt as much as the dogs need then the tune up is a good thing...especially if you do it right before a hunt...

[Hogsnatchers]

What do y'all think about workin pups an tuning older dogs up in a 2 acre wooded pen with one hog in it

Its helped my dogs out doing the same thing. Especially the pups gives them an idea of what's going on and they get the feel and experience of woods (vines trees etc.) Not just running right into a hog and seeing it standing in an open pen.

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[Myles Man]

Ok, I got a better understanding. I have only used a bay pen a couple dozen times and have watched 10 or so dogs in it(3 or 4 of em were my dogs in which I only have 1). Thats all I can go off of since I have never been to a bay competition, and from looking at yall's view and what I have seen-it all makes good sense to me. I appreciate the break down and input from what yall have learned from experience....its valuable info!!
So from what I can tell, my 10 month boy that shows lots of grit and lots of hunt can get ruined if he was put in a bay pen once a week for 5 minutes for 6 months? I could do this to "teach" him what I want him to do.  BUT: that could make/break him depending on him- I'm thinkin.

 I have not got to roll him out with the pros in 2 months(pros meaning garmin/vest/CD/experienced strike dog, etc) since I've been busy. I do let him hit the woods by himself with me and a RCD 2 or 3 times a week, which is a good thing so far. I'm workin on him trashin. He runs out and hunts real nice for his age, plus he keeps pretty silent.
I remember- at 6 or 7 mths he did hang with the big dogs on a run but quit after the garmin said 1 mile, he gave it all he had then came back to me while the other 2 swam across the river. I can say I'm glad he has hit the woods 20 times more than the bay pen. So this thread has helped me see he's prob gonna turn out to be a good "woods" dog. Now, my next goal is to turn him out with the 4 yr veteran strike dog as a helper---thats gonna be an interesting run for sure, hopefully in a week or 2.

[KevinN]

Sounds like you've done real well getting him started. A veteran dog is great for helping a pup in the woods but if nothing else...just feed him tracks now and you'll be doing good!

[t.wilbanks]

I'm confused..... The ones that didn't do good in the pen weren't the culls but were made into hunting dogs???

Ok....let me break it down further. To get in the money in the competitions...a dog has to bay with a certain style. Are you with me?

They have to be energetic...they have to have a certain amount of gritt...but not to much. They have to work REAL close. I'm talkin nose to nose. They have got to have focus. These things make or break a dog in competition.

In any litter of pups, attributes are going to vary to a certain degree...ever so slightly. This can make a difference in a competition dog. Out of a litter of pups you may have 1 dog that will place on a regular basis and the rest never see the money.

Like I said before....these dogs were good blooded. They produced some very good woods dogs. But if you've ever been around competitions...you should know it takes a certain something to succeed.

Did most of their woods dogs make strike dogs or did they also keep help dogs??

[KevinN]

Well....im NOT gonna get into that can of worns anymore.....my opinion on help dogs is probably well known.

To answer your question......there were help dogs in their yard as well as strike dogs. We would hunt pups on occasion just like anyone else who already has a full team of experienced dogs. But most of the time the pack would consist of a couple strike dogs and a couple "help dogs".