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Author Topic: Help Dog - the final plea  (Read 1267 times)
KevinN
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« on: April 08, 2013, 10:06:02 am »

If your a one out hunter you can quit reading and move on  Grin You use a differ hunting style and this won't have anything to do with you. I am speaking more to the conventional 3 to 4 dogs in a pack hunters.

I don't have a problem with keeping a help dog in my yard, for a period of time, if it fits my hunting style.

Don't hit the reply button yet! There are a lot of thoughts here and a summary. Please read the entire post!

I've "argued" in support of the help dog a couple times but mostly, I believe, my musings have fell on deaf ears. I personally believe its for just a couple of reasons. Individual understanding/definition of words or ego.

The easiest way to explain my point of view...is to TRY and make sure we are all on the same page as far as definitions go. I used the www.merriam-Webster.com for my definitions.

Some may argue otherwise but based off of pure definition...a pack ( 1.c.1 a number of individual components,  5.a1 a group of domesticated animals trained to hunt or run together) consist of a strike dog( the dog of a pack that customarily first closes with game) and 2 to 3 help (1. to give assistance or support) dogs.

Some individuals will say they don't keep help dogs on their yard, they have some young dogs or some up and comers but no help dogs. Well....it is the rare occasion that a pack will divide the striking duties amongst themselves evenly. One dog will usually take the lead roll and be the primary dog to strike the game. He may be followed closely by another dog but by pure definition....any and every dog besides the lead dog serves in a helping roll and there is nothing wrong with that.

All this being said....I wouldn't begin to put all help dogs in the same class. The guys that have GREAT lines (not 1 or 2 dogs out of a great lines), a yard full of good blood, will also usually have grade "A" help dogs.

I have never started a pack with a high powered very well started dog. Please......if you have the funds available and access to such a dog then take advantage...that's the best way to go....but that's not the way that's possible for every hunter.

I have always started with luck of the draw to good to well bred pups from 6 weeks to 10 months. It's work, its a lot of work, but you can raise a pack this way. A pack that will put you in pork.

In doing it this way you end up with dogs of varying levels of ability. This kind of brings me full circle. Let me just make it perfectly clear....I, just like everyone else, strive for that perfect line, The one that fits ME perfectly. No one WANTS a yard full of mediocre dogs but in even the best yards there is going to be a variance in ability levels and even "help" dogs can serve a purpose while your waiting  Wink


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maverick10
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« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2013, 11:59:47 am »

I think your right Kevin to me this is so true IMO..
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« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2013, 12:34:05 pm »

I will agree. On another note a help dog today could be lead or strike tomorrow. All of my dogs have struck their own hog. That by no means says they are all strike dogs. All but one were help dog or less when I got them. One of my gyps climbed out the bay pen 3 times before I got her to bay. I'm a poor boy too and buying top notch dogs are out of the question. This fact is probly what will keep me from breading the dogs I have.  Until I get rich or lucky I will keep getting cheap or free pot lickers from others and work with them till I got at least a decent dog
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TexasHogDogs
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« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2013, 12:44:50 pm »

Well its a lot easier if you been breeding your own dogs for some years.  I run from 4 to 5 dogs on the ground because I just like dogs .  Also because I like to get my young dogs going and experience they need.  There is not a grown dog on this yard that cant find its own hog.  There is  a pecking order here which then again there is no pecking order because at one time are another each of them will find the hog first  .  It goes from Horn to Whitey to Ole Blue to Bell to Hannah to Horns young son and now the Cracker Partin Fla cur and so on they all work they all hunt they all help each other and you take one out of the bunch and they are missed till they can get back in action just the way my pack works .
Over time I have kept what I wanted and sold the rest to good people simply because I cannot hunt them all .  Whats funny about the deal is I can have a young dog here and he 18 months to  two years old and been running with this pack he finds hogs here and there and he has learned his ways from these and some even shares their blood but when he is sold he becomes a really really good dog and people call back and ask how can you sell dogs like that well because I got dogs like that .  The thing is while he was here he was in a pecking order when he leaves out to another yard he makes his own pecking order but here he is under a chain of command here .  Anyway I like four five dogs on the ground and after years of breeding them I don't keep dogs that don't find their on hogs are show high ability to do so  ,  so are these dogs really help dogs I don't think so they are just dogs brought up on the yard with great dogs and they learn from them so when they are able to go to a new owner they are ready to start their on pecking order.

Just a plain on help dog that wont hunt no I don't keep them and I have been guilty of calling them bona fide culls but for somethat have not bred their on dogs for some years and are less fortunate are just young and starting out the help dogs have their place in a pack of dogs but here they would not make it not the kind that wont get out and hunt and have the ability to find their own hog .

One thing about it folks they dogs you keep only have to please you and everybody else can kiss the dark side of the moon .  
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Demondoggers
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« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2013, 01:17:25 pm »

Soooo what do you call a running catch dog that doesn't out strike my lead dog but has many other peoples numerous times? If she is last to the squeal is she just a help dog? My dogs aren't big into the whole baying thing. Lol
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« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2013, 03:41:27 pm »

I have 2 litter mates. A male and a female. The female is small in stature but she makes up for it in grit and determination. The male is bigger stronger and faster. They are both close range dogs. The male will check back in more frequent than the female. The male has found his own hog but mostly it's the female doing the striking and he ends up right there with her at the bay. I've seen on a few occasions where the hog breaks bay and the male is right there to shut him down and get him bayed again. I guess you would consider
him a help dog but it works for me. We don't have a lot of hogs so I'm still evaluating him. Maybe if I try him by his self he would step right up. I guess it all goes back to the standards one has for his pack. I wouldn't want a yard full of help dogs but I don't have a problem with
one as long as he is contributing in some way.
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« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2013, 04:25:34 pm »

i will not hunt something i would not breed to and help dogs should not be bred at all by anyone.
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« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2013, 05:27:56 pm »

You thread stealing sum buck!  Cheesy Thai is sorta the same topic I'm trying to cover in hog dog ology if ol Stretch Chad-strong would quit getting off topic lol  laugh laugh
(I'm just picking on you Chad)

Let me say it right here, once and for all. NOBODY NOBODY NOBODY gets a new (cur, hound, terrier) puppy in hopes that one day that puppy will grow into being a world renowned jam-up help dog.

If I'm wrong and there's a bunch of you out there who want a pack full o no huntin Helpers, then please let me know, BECUASE I will round up every stray mutt I can catch, teach em to get to a bay and bark at hog and be a dang millionaire by next January!  Wink



Help dogs may be a necessity if you are starting anew in this sport and don't know how anyone yet, but I would hope that everyone out there's striving to have a better pack than one dog who can locate a hog and a bunch of Helpers to bark at it.  Grin

I'll leave you with some words of wisdom.
If you can't be with the one you love, love the one your with.
Or
Dance with the one who brung ya, until you find a better dancer with a car.
 

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Reuben
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« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2013, 06:46:22 pm »

You thread stealing sum buck!  Cheesy Thai is sorta the same topic I'm trying to cover in hog dog ology if ol Stretch Chad-strong would quit getting off topic lol  laugh laugh
(I'm just picking on you Chad)



I thought both of you stole mine...

What is a good hog dog??? and why so many culls???

not exactly the same but close...the end result is about the same...

some folks run help dogs intentionally...a mixed pack of 1 or 2 good strike dogs that are not gritty or maybe gritty/rough strike dogs with a mix of mixed breed ruff dogs that don't really hunt alone but will run to hell and back as long as the strike dogs stick...don't need a catch dog with this pack of dogs...

still others think they have a good pack of hog dogs and really they only have one or two...and when that main dog is lost/killed they find out the hard way...went from being a mighty hunter of hogs to not catching but a few if any...

so...there is a place for a "HELP DOG"...it just now occurred to me that there is a difference between me too dogs and help dogs...someone intentionally is running help dogs in the pack for a reason...

A "ME TOO DOG" is a dog that someone thinks is a good all around hog dog but really the dog has wrongfully been evaluated because of the rose colored glasses or plain ole in-experience...  Cheesy Smiley



 
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« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2013, 09:02:43 pm »

I usually run at least two dogs at a time no more than four. All have bayed by themself. But the way you put  it I guess  you are saying if the dog don't bay the hog first the other dogs are just help. If you look at it that way I agree.
But  I have a different definition for a help dog. A dog that won't hunt but will cover a bay or help catch.
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cantexduck
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« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2013, 09:10:24 pm »

 Good strike dog- If a dog is a good strike dog then it doesnt need help. I run four dogs on the ground more times then not. Each one will find a hog. Two go out together more times then not and the other two off their own way. When one bays the others honor. Catch hog and repeat.
 I see no need for a dog just to help. The above dogs can and have all found hogs and held them at bay alone. Any dog over two should be hunting good and not just waiting for the others to find a hog.


Reuben- I think those glasses might be brindel colored instead of red.
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« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2013, 10:02:28 pm »

Everyone including myself is looking for the perfect dogs to breed. I know alot of you have your opinions but I Want everyone to step back and think, how many champions have come from winning stock? I cant remember the last time that a race horse champ has produced the same results, just a thought. Raised horses and cattle for 30 plus years and myself and family way longer. The bottom line you get alot less culls but still don't get what you think. Hell, the best stock I've come across are the animals that aren't supposed to be!!
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TexasHogDogs
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« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2013, 10:40:24 pm »

Good strike dog- If a dog is a good strike dog then it doesnt need help. I run four dogs on the ground more times then not. Each one will find a hog. Two go out together more times then not and the other two off their own way. When one bays the others honor. Catch hog and repeat.
 I see no need for a dog just to help. The above dogs can and have all found hogs and held them at bay alone. Any dog over two should be hunting good and not just waiting for the others to find a hog.


Reuben- I think those glasses might be brindel colored instead of red.

Yup yup 10/4 I agree !
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« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2013, 10:49:52 pm »

Pain and simple...I won't feed a help dog. Food getting to expensive.
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Reuben
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« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2013, 07:08:46 am »

Good strike dog- If a dog is a good strike dog then it doesnt need help. I run four dogs on the ground more times then not. Each one will find a hog. Two go out together more times then not and the other two off their own way. When one bays the others honor. Catch hog and repeat.
 I see no need for a dog just to help. The above dogs can and have all found hogs and held them at bay alone. Any dog over two should be hunting good and not just waiting for the others to find a hog.


Reuben- I think those glasses might be brindel colored instead of red.

Yup yup 10/4 I agree !

this thread is about help dogs...but I will not own any...like you said, dog food is too expensive and room to keep dogs is in short supply...
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« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2013, 11:18:53 am »

Qb
We
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Wmwendler
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« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2013, 03:47:05 pm »

A good help dog can be a great benefit.  But a help dog is not just any ole dog that will go to a bay and bark at a hog, or mob in on a catch.  They cannot just simply be "present", they have to be HELPING the situation.  I have always said just barking at a hog is not baying.  Yeah the dog is there, yeah he is barking, but is he really contributing to the bay.  They have to actually contribute something for me to call one a help dog. Sometimes dogs can even get in the way of the other dogs at a bay, or worse, push the hog, bust bays, ect.   Then in that case you have an anti-help dog, a "hinder" dog if you will. 

What really defines a strike dog to me is what will they do when hunted by them selves.  Sure they might not usually strike hogs first because another dog in the pack is faster or smarter on track.  But can you take that dog and turn them into reasonably fresh hog sign (6-10 hours old) and depend on them to find the hog(s)? If the answer is yes then you have a strike dog.  If the answer is no, or only if the track is super fresh (1-3 hours old) and they don't have to carry the track very far, then you don't have a strike dog in my opinion.  However, if the dog has no bad habits, and actually contributes to getting the hog bayed after the strike, then that is a help dog.  And I do believe they have their place. 

Here is a hypothetical, Just say for instance you turn two dogs loose into some hog sign both are jam up strike dogs.  You used to have three dogs but you culled one because he did not strike hogs.  Both strike dogs take a separate track by random chance and each end up on two separate rank, spoilt boar hogs.  These are the type of boar hogs that you need at least two dogs working together to get bayed without a long chase.  But since they are by them selves on the rank and spoilt boar hogs, a long chase ensues.  Now you are stuck having the make the decision of which dog to follow first.  You flip a coin,  he tries hard to get the hog bayed and does after a long chase and you get the hog.  But.....your dog is cut down and you tend to him and put him up.  You then turn your attention to the other chase.  You get close, but too much time has passed and the other strike dog is worn out and she too gets cut down and the hog give you the slip because you were not able to get to her fast enough.  Next week you get some great hunting weather and you really want to hunt but both of your dogs (strike dogs) are cut down.  So you swallow your pride and call your "buddy" to bring his help dogs they don't find any hogs for you.  You are number 2 out of luck  until your dogs heal.

Now say you owned three dogs.  One of them was a help dog and you are ok with that.  Today you turned one strike dog and a help dog into that hog sign.  They go and bay the first boar, they work together and the hog bays close.  You get that hog and the strike dog rolls out.  The help dog stays there because after all he is just a help dog.  The strike dog strikes on the other boar, and the help dog goes to the bay but the hog breaks.  This hog is alerted because he heard the commotion from the first bay.  He gives a good race but comes bayed and you get him also but your strike dog got cut down.  The help dog got a few nicks but nothing serious....  Next week comes around and you take your other strike dog and your help dog and you are still in the hunt.  Grin

Many times it pays to have a help dog that you know will be there to help the strike dog when he opens.

Waylon
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« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2013, 10:41:03 am »

I have four dogs that will find there own hog from 11 yrs old to 4 yrs old , to me they are bad a$$ , I dont call them finshed because theyll still eat small game and bump a deer from time to time and all are at diffrent levels , I can take all four and if you find hogs you better get the shoes on and be ready for multiple bays miles appart and I dont care how much land you got we more than likely will be on the neighbor or his neighbor , for this reason I only take two at a time , one older and one younger , I really never considered one as a help dog which you could make that case, just one with less experiance than the other , I guess if I was going to give my idea of a help dog it would be a younger dog with drive , learning to use its nose and hunting but just not there yet , a dog that stands around and dont leave out but smart enought to know what the other dogs are doing  , looking up and listening for a bay and then hauling butt to it when it fires up  is a  cull ,ah man sounds like ive had one of those before  LOL
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