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Author Topic: Please help me explain why these people are idiots...  (Read 1905 times)
TrueBlueLacys
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« on: August 29, 2009, 11:30:41 pm »

OK, so the reason I haven't finished up the Bremond pictures is because I've been putting out a massive fire for a Lacy friend who had a dog killed last week from a nasty boar, and I need y'alls help before my brain explodes. The very short story is our friend's dog received a very deep shoulder wound and they tried to save him but had to put him down (the whole story is here if you want to read it: http://www.nationallacydog.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1326). Well, to add insult to the pain of losing a dog, our friends were then accused of animal cruelty on another public Lacy board for their actions, several Lacy breeders actually encouraging someone to call the authorities on them because they were somehow negligent in how they cared for the dog, taking him to two vets and scheduling an amputation. By the way, this is one of many reasons why Monteria and I warn you all about buying Lacys from pet breeders, don't do it!

Now they are blaming our hunting/training/something methods for the reason this dog was killed. Keep in mind these are people who have never been on a hog dog hunt and have no clue. We hunt exactly like everyone else who runs curs and catch dogs. Our Lacys are short-to-medium in range and are a little gritty but are far from being catch dogs. They like to pile on shoats and they respect the big ones. This is the first time Steve or Mike have ever had a dog killed while hunting. If anything, our dogs get cut and injured a lot less than most, and I believe that is because of the compact size and quickness of the breed. But of course I'm so flabbergasted by the situation that I'm not sure how to approach it.

Here's what these people are claiming:

1.) They've heard of numerous Lacys being killed hog hunting over the last year (not true unless they've found some secret pack of Internet hog hunters I don't know about) but they have friends in Mississippi who run other breeds and their dogs rarely get fatally wounded. They then imply that fewer Catahoulas get killed than Lacys, that somehow Cats are less gritty than Lacys, or something to that effect.

2.) According to the idiots, we are, I quote, "encouraging dogs to get in too close, subjecting them to increased chances of serious injury. Adding protective equipment is nice, but calling a dog gritty and teaching them to catch is just a bad practice, and a corruption of what these herding dogs naturally do."

Um... first of all, how would you even do that? Do you guys actually train your dogs the style you want them to bay in? Because we don't. We teach our dogs to hate a pig in a pen and then let them do their thing. We've never manipulated their bay style. If anything that sounds extremely dangerous, trying to break a dog of their instincts rather than letting them deal with a hog as they see fit.

3.) Furthermore, apparently using catch dogs is what causes and/or exacerbates this issue. According to these people, all the "old timers" have told them "a good dog will bay at the front, and nip at the rear. And, that's how they train their dogs. Once the hog is bayed, they move in for the kill with a pistol, and the dogs back off to a safe distance. This is done without catch dogs. Sticking the hog with a knife requires catch dogs, and so does tying hogs for transport. But, that's an element that has been added to raise the excitement level of hog hunting. If the object is a dead hog, and it should be, using the gun makes a lot more sense, if you have your dogs trained correctly!"

I am not well versed in the history of hog hunting, but I don't believe it is out of line to assume that sticking hogs is a much older, probably thousands of years older, practice than shooting them. Furthermore, I've never heard that people who bay and shoot get less injuries to their bay dogs than those who catch, not to mention the risk of a stray bullet.

So obviously, as you can read from what I've quoted, these people are morons. Please elaborate on that statement if you can to help explain exactly why they are so stupid. Thanks.
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slimpickins
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« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2009, 11:41:17 pm »

Sometimes there is nothing you can say that will change someones mind. Best way is to show them on a hunt or In a baypen. I am sorry for your friends loss and it sounds like they went above and beyond to care for the dog. RIP to another good one chasing hogs in the clouds.
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« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2009, 11:55:57 pm »

My dad shoots over his dogs and runs lacys and let me tell you his dogs have been cut.  Not seriously but to the point of vet assistance.  A couple of hits that they have recieved if not in the shoulder could have been a lot worse.
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BobbyB
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« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2009, 11:56:34 pm »

Julie, I think you and Steve have an idea how I fell about the Lacy " pet" breeders. They are full of themselves and their newly discovered designer dog. You will not dissuade them from their thinking. They are idiots and remember, never argue with an idiot because they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

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TrueBlueLacys
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« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2009, 12:08:33 am »

Julie, I think you and Steve have an idea how I fell about the Lacy " pet" breeders. They are full of themselves and their newly discovered designer dog. You will not dissuade them from their thinking. They are idiots and remember, never argue with an idiot because they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Truer word have never been spoken! You really need to come up and hunt with us one of these days. Assuming Steve's pride survives the Pink Panties Assault on Labor Day Wink Of course you and Slim are right, I'm sure I'll never change the mind of the idiots. But if nothing else I'd like to educate others and collect points for any future "discussions" on the topic.

What I'm really interested, when I take a deep breath and think about it, is whether or not real hog hunters actually think their is any difference in injury to bay dogs in catching versus baying and shooting. We don't use running catch dogs, our dogs are bayed solid before we ever unclip the pits, and our "fat girls" hit on an ear and hunker down. The dogs don't have to bay and wait for us to line up a shot.  They aren't at risk from a stray bullet. I'm not saying that baying and shooting is worse, but in my opinion it is no safer for the bay dogs. As Purebreed said, dogs get cut whether your have a gun or a pit.
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« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2009, 12:15:20 am »

Now that I have hunted both ways there are ups to both.  Dads dogs bayed up a big hog a couple of months ago he gat close but no shot waited a min and the hog broke this happened three times before the dogs and hog let him have a safe shot.  Had he had catch dogs the first bay would have been caught hog and the dogs would not had to shut him down two more times.
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Barticus
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« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2009, 01:50:24 am »

You can't fix stupid.
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cantexduck
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« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2009, 09:38:09 am »

Julie,
  I am not one to back down from a fight with the Pet Lacy owners. Grin

 BUT, It isnt worth the effort to fight with them over this. You know how word travels......each person tells a differant story. It isnt going to change anything argueing over it. They will think what they want to think. Let them talk all the crap they want to and leave it be. You talk about un-proven pet dogs and they talk about inbred 5 legged lacy dogs. Let the people be the judge.
  I think less damage is done by the bay and shoot dogs. Makes more sense to me, you dont run gritty dogs if you shoot over them.
 People are going to think what they want to think, if they dont like the people behind the story then that will add fuel to the fire. It is a sad story, and to someone on the outside, it could be very easy to not see things in the right light.
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TrueBlueLacys
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« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2009, 01:20:32 pm »

Well, I think the way I want to approach it, completely for the benefit of people who don't know us or know about hog hunting, is to explain the various ways of hunting with dogs. I am a firm believer that education is the best medicine, and that merely offering an intelligent explanation of hunting style is enough. So this is where you guys can really help me. Here is a very basic outline, as I see it, of hunting styles with dogs in America. If you guys have insight on the Australian way to do it, awesome, cause I have no clue! I'd obviously expand on this, but anything you can add to the styles and the types of dogs used for each would be very helpful. I'll then build it out into an article for our blog.

1.) Bay and Catch - Using curs or hounds to bay up a hog, then the hunter releases a catch dog who holds the hog so it can be tied or stabbed
2.) Bay and Shoot - Using curs or hounds to bay up a hog, then the hunter gets as close as possible and wait for a clear shot
3.) Running Catch Dogs - These dogs find, track and then catch the hog, there is no baying
4.) Sight Hounds - Mandi could probably clarify this, but from what I understand this style is similar to other types of coursing in that the dogs makes a visual ID then runs to catch the hog, I'm assuming with back up on it's way
« Last Edit: August 30, 2009, 01:33:53 pm by TrueBlueLacys » Logged

Monteria
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« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2009, 03:06:50 pm »

Oh sweet Jesus let it go...... Your head will explode long before any of those morons cease to be morons.

Steve
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BobbyB
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« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2009, 03:40:07 pm »

Oh sweet Jesus let it go...... Your head will explode long before any of those morons cease to be morons.

Steve

What Steve said. They dont care. And as long as they dont care, education or any attempt to educate them is a waste of time. They dont care, and they dont want to know. If they did, they would have asked questions before they started making up their versions of how to hog hunt and what happened to the dog.

It took me a lot of years to figure this out, now, I just shake my head and laugh at their dumb asses. To their face if possible.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2009, 04:18:38 pm by BobbyB » Logged

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Black Gold
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« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2009, 04:11:39 pm »

When it comes to the world of hog hunting with dogs you need to be prepared to be exiled from other dog-friendly circles.....many cant grasp what they dont understand and dont know.
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« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2009, 05:14:33 pm »

Some people are just one sided no matter what, they will never understand why we love the working dogs so much....All we can do is keep being positive even to those people and do it with a smile Cheesy, thanks for all you guys do for the lacy's and us all!!!!!!!
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« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2009, 06:51:41 pm »

Sounds like if anything your freinds did a great job and spent alot of money at two vets going above and beyond trying to save the dog, many cant even do that, amputations are not cheap! Saying lacy's are cut more than catahoula's is spoken by someone who is clueless about hunting with dogs thats ridiculous Huh?. Heat kills more dogs than hogs do, bulldogs are obviously the most injured or killed not curs of any kind. Angry
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TexasJ
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« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2009, 10:06:21 pm »

When it comes to the world of hog hunting with dogs you need to be prepared to be exiled from other dog-friendly circles.....many cant grasp what they dont understand and dont know.

I agree, to also iclude other hunting/fishing groups.  Some of their reasoning also includes jelousy.  A rich man who loves hunting can't wake up one day decide he wants to try "hog dogging" and use his money to buy everything he needs overnight.  He may have gone to Africa and killed every animal on the planet but he's going to have a very difficult journey into attaining his own pack and becoming successful at hog dogging "over night".  "Over night" equalls years of time invested and a complete lifestyle adaptation.  They can buy the best of everything and have a mind set they are better then other folks, but not when it comes to dog hunting.  Thats what fuels their negativism.     
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« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2009, 01:19:34 am »

I am not well versed in the history of hog hunting, but I don't believe it is out of line to assume that sticking hogs is a much older, probably thousands of years older, practice than shooting them. Furthermore, I've never heard that people who bay and shoot get less injuries to their bay dogs than those who catch, not to mention the risk of a stray bullet.
So obviously, as you can read from what I've quoted, these people are morons. Please elaborate on that statement if you can to help explain exactly why they are so stupid. Thanks.

You need help explaining why are they so stupid? Gun hunting is the "old" way of doing things? Are they seriously able to say that with a straight face?

I very seriously doubt that there were too many guns lying around in the 3rd century... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boar_hunting

Now if they want to make the argument that a particularly young/modern breed may have been developed as a bay-dog for gun hunters, then they may have a valid argument... I don't know... I'd have to do some research on the specific breed in question before I could speak to that. But in general historical terms, whether they used catch dogs, bay dogs (or even bay elephants) or both, shooting with bows/arrows and sticking with spears/knives is definitely the "old school" approach.
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« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2009, 03:31:50 am »

In the hunting world a dog is a tool, like a racket to a tennis player. There is a difference between my pet dogs and my working dogs. I know of several dogs killed working in the cattle pens at feed lots. Does this mean we should quit raising cattle. Hog hunting with dogs has come a long way in the last twenty years.  I hate to say in the old days, but I will, there were no cut vests, collars or 4 wheelers. To me the greatest thing to come out is the dog tracking devices. In the past I spent more time hunting dogs than I did hunting hogs. I can't tell you the number of dogs killed or wounded when they caught up with a hog in the swamps and you couldn't find them for maybe an hour or two. You had to quarter hogs and carry them out on your back sometimes a few miles. I didn't get involved in hog hunting as a hobby, forty something years ago I started because I didn't want to be hungry. Let Obama keep going, these fancy pants dog breeders sure will show up at your front door for a pork chop. I have seen it before, let times get a little hard, people start loosing there jobs and they aren't quite as high and mighty with an empty stomach.  So the history of hog hunting is not much different than any other kind of hunting, people got hungry and killed an animal to eat. Unless these dog breeders are vegans, they eat meat.  Tell them a cow is murdered every time they eat a hamburger. Even better, offer to take them to a slaughter house a watch a cow get killed and processed. That will make there day.
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« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2009, 03:05:46 pm »

Julie
   i do love the passion that you bring into the hog hunting world and your a great team member to have on the TDHA
 i would hate to think i was on the recieving end of your rath
    keep up the good work
         Dexter
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« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2009, 11:45:33 am »

Hay Julie it's Lamar you know what i think. With some people you can't change stupid. 
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« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2009, 04:25:51 pm »

In the hunting world a dog is a tool, like a racket to a tennis player. There is a difference between my pet dogs and my working dogs. I know of several dogs killed working in the cattle pens at feed lots. Does this mean we should quit raising cattle. Hog hunting with dogs has come a long way in the last twenty years.  I hate to say in the old days, but I will, there were no cut vests, collars or 4 wheelers. To me the greatest thing to come out is the dog tracking devices. In the past I spent more time hunting dogs than I did hunting hogs. I can't tell you the number of dogs killed or wounded when they caught up with a hog in the swamps and you couldn't find them for maybe an hour or two. You had to quarter hogs and carry them out on your back sometimes a few miles. I didn't get involved in hog hunting as a hobby, forty something years ago I started because I didn't want to be hungry. Let Obama keep going, these fancy pants dog breeders sure will show up at your front door for a pork chop. I have seen it before, let times get a little hard, people start loosing there jobs and they aren't quite as high and mighty with an empty stomach.  So the history of hog hunting is not much different than any other kind of hunting, people got hungry and killed an animal to eat. Unless these dog breeders are vegans, they eat meat.  Tell them a cow is murdered every time they eat a hamburger. Even better, offer to take them to a slaughter house a watch a cow get killed and processed. That will make there day.
     



    mr . wilson , thats exactly right !  people that get them crazy ideas live too far away from reality . ill bet even if they are vagans , if they get hungry long enough they ll eat any damn thing you put in front of them  .     and kill to get it too
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