inbreeding/linebreeding or open breeding/outcrossing???

[Reuben]

back in the olden days you could ask the average old timer about breeding closely related dogs and most would say it makes crazy and deformed dogs etc...etc...

after reading many articles over the years...and breeding mutts as a kid and purebreds as an adult I have developed my personal theories on some of these ideas/reasoning...

closely related animals have similar genes and more alike when sire and dam are bred...that is why they look the same, act the same, hunt the same and so on...each parent passes on one gene and quite a few of these match up as the same...the lack of diversity in these paired up genes makes for a weaker immune system as they become more alike over a few generations...most purebred pups won't make it past 3 months without worming's and vaccines...that alone would be enough to discourage the old timers from breeding too close...back then there were no vaccines...

so the old timers believed in outcrossing and just breeding good dogs that weren't related or even of the same breed but they tended to look alike or maybe hunt alike...so if they did breed a certain amount of like to like then they would lose some of the pups but the ones that survived were the ones who lived to hunt and breed...

some scientist's say that when selecting correctly the lack of diversity is not a big problem because one should select the very healthy ones...there is some truth to that because out in the wild there is quite a bit of inbreeding but mother nature tends to do an excellent job of culling the inferior...she does not make mistakes so the strong survive to live, hunt and breed...coyote etc...etc...

some of us with the purebred dogs do all we can to save the whole litter because if they all live we can sell a few of these stem winders and make a profit especially if they have some great dogs in the pedigree...thus more inferior dogs produced to carry on with the inferior genes...

when I was a kid I bred some of the throw aways that were thrown out on our country road and there were no such thing as taking them to the vet and no worming and most lived and hunted...hunger is a great motivator for a pup to hunt...with 9 kids in a family there were no such thing as table scraps...

like Justin said on the other thread...just trying to start some conversation...getting a little slow so thought I would throw this out there... 

 

[Bo Pugh]

I have never done any line breeding but I do have a ? I have a male dog I really like. I recently bred him to a female that's a decent dog. Well I ended up with 5 male pups off of them. But I recently picked up a female pup off of the male dogs sister which would be his niece. What should be my next steps. I'm thinking breed him back to his niece and then when them pups come and start going breed one of them females to one of the 5 other pups I have which would be half bro x half sister crosses or would this not be good

[YELLOWBLACKMASK]

Always an interesting topic.

As far as referring to the breeding practices of "Old Timers".
Most lines were kept only by certain individuals located in pockets of each perspective area.
those men linebred, inbred and outcrossed. But typically due to transportation issues of the period.....they didn't outcross to far and it was usually within a circle of men that at some point came right back around to the same dogs again.

So that being said.....is that called circle breeding? Haha

I believe a healthy combination of all breeding practices listed above are necessary to promote a healthy, productive line that promotes future progression of the desired traits that the breeder seeks.

I enjoy linebreeding with an occasional outcross, when one is located that is "as good or better"  than what you have.
But the obvious downside to outcrossing is the introduction of new unknown traits that have to be identified and regulated with breeding maintenance. (Not a very widley practiced method these days)

An occasional inbreeding.......only two reasons.......when you posses two dogs that are almost identical in desired traits that you want to magnify. Or when you are in danger of losing your line and no suitable outcrosses are immediately available.
But better put your safety glass and lab coat on for that one while holding a claw hammer. Extreme and harsh maintenance needs to apply for anything that close to the fire....especially after several generations of line breeding.

My ole favorite .....Best to Best and Cull the rest....preferably kindred dogs.

Touching on blood goin stale.........A long healthy line of dogs that have been maintained properly ....will sometimes go into a slump ....I call it (Blood goin stale).  This is when the line is not progressing properly out of good brood worthy line dogs.

I like to slip out a couple generations and come back across with a line dog that is not as close related...but still holds the same line blood just from a different tree branch sort of speaking .

Have had extremely good luck on churning the stale blood and getting back on track for progression of the line.

Only one way to go.....FORWARD .......or ya just spinning your wheels.

Jmo.  

[Reuben]

I believe that inbreeding once at the beginning with scatter bred dogs to tighten up the genetic pool is the way to go...but the dogs have to be very good dogs and choosing the right pups from that cross most important...inbreeding is not necessary if we are lucky enough to already have dogs that are linebred and hunting well...next step is to turn over fairly quick to get where we want to be with the genetics and to also have a higher percentage of good pups from each litter...once that goal is met then we keep them longer and just breed to replace pups otherwise one will reach that stale/tired blood and then it will be time to add an out cross but only a fraction should be brought in into the line otherwise it won't be our line any more...the most important part of any breeding program is breeding the very best...the cream rises to the top...

[Scott]

I prefer to line/inbreed, then outcross when I feel it is necessary to another suitable linebred/inbred dog. But, the sort is just as important...

[KKNOTT]

I think line breeding is when you have an excellent male and cross him to his daughter then grand daughter then great grand daughter. So if you look at the pedigree it goes in a line. Not stating facts just what I have heard. Supposed to be some good information on the texas A&M website. You can use a mother and son but think it could produce more birth defects that way.

[Crib]

back in the olden days you could ask the average old timer about breeding closely related dogs and most would say it makes crazy and deformed dogs etc...etc...

after reading many articles over the years...and breeding mutts as a kid and purebreds as an adult I have developed my personal theories on some of these ideas/reasoning...

closely related animals have similar genes and more alike when sire and dam are bred...that is why they look the same, act the same, hunt the same and so on...each parent passes on one gene and quite a few of these match up as the same...the lack of diversity in these paired up genes makes for a weaker immune system as they become more alike over a few generations...most purebred pups won't make it past 3 months without worming's and vaccines...that alone would be enough to discourage the old timers from breeding too close...back then there were no vaccines...

so the old timers believed in outcrossing and just breeding good dogs that weren't related or even of the same breed but they tended to look alike or maybe hunt alike...so if they did breed a certain amount of like to like then they would lose some of the pups but the ones that survived were the ones who lived to hunt and breed...

some scientist's say that when selecting correctly the lack of diversity is not a big problem because one should select the very healthy ones...there is some truth to that because out in the wild there is quite a bit of inbreeding but mother nature tends to do an excellent job of culling the inferior...she does not make mistakes so the strong survive to live, hunt and breed...coyote etc...etc...

some of us with the purebred dogs do all we can to save the whole litter because if they all live we can sell a few of these stem winders and make a profit especially if they have some great dogs in the pedigree...thus more inferior dogs produced to carry on with the inferior genes...

when I was a kid I bred some of the throw aways that were thrown out on our country road and there were no such thing as taking them to the vet and no worming and most lived and hunted...hunger is a great motivator for a pup to hunt...with 9 kids in a family there were no such thing as table scraps...

like Justin said on the other thread...just trying to start some conversation...getting a little slow so thought I would throw this out there... 
 

The part about sellin a few to make money.. that's why I don't do that. I know that the people who pay more money have their plans on breeding and if the dog isnt tested I wouldn't want it bred. So I give my dogs to friends and people they personally refer to me. Is it expensive? Yes.. but instead of using the dog to bail myself out I just take a break or farm the dog out to someone I trust. Why do I do this? its prevents unknowledgable people from breeding dogs I don't feel will improve the bloodline. This is a breeding practice not breeding it self.

I like to start out with linebred or inbred stock then make the outcrosses myself. That way I know what I'm starting with. I know people who used outcross with unknown stuff then got upset when something strange popped up and they blamed the linebred/inbred stuff that I knew from personal experience did not have those traits.

In our minds we need to separate the choices the "breeder" makes from the actual breeding results. This way a person knows what the next step is and doesn't waste time and money.

[Crib]

I have never done any line breeding but I do have a ? I have a male dog I really like. I recently bred him to a female that's a decent dog. Well I ended up with 5 male pups off of them. But I recently picked up a female pup off of the male dogs sister which would be his niece. What should be my next steps. I'm thinking breed him back to his niece and then when them pups come and start going breed one of them females to one of the 5 other pups I have which would be half bro x half sister crosses or would this not be good

Bo Pugh, do you have any pedigree information on your dogs? I'd like to try and help you answer your question.

[Crib]

I think line breeding is when you have an excellent male and cross him to his daughter then grand daughter then great grand daughter. So if you look at the pedigree it goes in a line. Not stating facts just what I have heard. Supposed to be some good information on the texas A&M website. You can use a mother and son but think it could produce more birth defects that way.

Dogs pulls from anywhere in the ancestry so formulas like this are "relative" to the dogs used in the breeding. In others words this does not apply to every dog or breeding.

[Bo Pugh]

I have never done any line breeding but I do have a ? I have a male dog I really like. I recently bred him to a female that's a decent dog. Well I ended up with 5 male pups off of them. But I recently picked up a female pup off of the male dogs sister which would be his niece. What should be my next steps. I'm thinking breed him back to his niece and then when them pups come and start going breed one of them females to one of the 5 other pups I have which would be half bro x half sister crosses or would this not be good

Bo Pugh, do you have any pedigree information on your dogs? I'd like to try and help you answer your question.

i do not have any pedigree information on the dogs i have, but what i do have is one male dog i really like he is what i want to build off of from here on out, hes the kind of dog that really suites me i would really like to duplicate him into about 10 pups and keep them all, the female i bred him to is a pretty nice dog as were her parents shes bred right to and i ended up with 5 male pups off of the two, and i just recently acquired a neice thats about a year old to my male dog.  we have always bred good dog to good dog but you never know what your going to get and i know nothing about line breeding could i breed my male to his niece and then later on down the road breed one of my male pups to his half sister or would they come out with three eyes or something and whats the difference in line breeding and inbreeding

[Crib]

OK, thanks

I would do the more linebred breeding 1st. And from this point it would be good for you to keep track of who is being bred to who and what you get off each breeding. This way you can go back and compare and if stuff pops up you don't like you will have a good idea of where it came from. You will have to try different combinations too since you are basically starting from scratch.

After you use your male to the nice I would do a brother sister from that. At this same time you could try your male to that other unrelated female just to see. If you get good pups off the inbred litter you can pair pups from those tow litters. By then you should know what you have both good and bad.

Keep in mind, linebreeding/inbreeding doesn't cause the problems, those problems were already there. Line breeding exposes the problems so you can get rid of them. You have to not breed the problem dogs in order to be successful.

[Crib]

Its says "nice" I meant niece*

[Coady Curbow]

Uncle to Niece or Aunt to Nephew are some of the best crosses to make with good dogs. My Opinion.

[halfbreed]

  bo you asked what the difference was in line breeding and inbreeding well i'll put it to you the way it was told to me ,  it is line breeding when it works and inbreeding when it doesn't   lol   a lot of folks are confused by the two but in all actuality they are the same , ancestors to ancestors or descendant's .
 
  a lot of folks are held up by human Christian influence in the breeding of animals . in other words we as humans are not supposed to marry our cousins or close relatives and produce offspring . it just ain't the Christian thing to do !!  lol  if you want to keep producing a line of animals it is the only way [ breeding within the family ] to do it .   go as close as you want or skip a generation or two , but the closer you breed [ without an outcross ] the faster your results . just be diligent with the axe and admit a fault if one occurs .

[t-dog]

I'm a fan of linebreeding and all that myself. As said before, when done "right", it's the fastest path to getting where you want to be. You have to be extremely selective. Any bad trait you add is always there no matter how far you try to breed away from it. Sooner or later it is gonna rear it's ugly head and it always seems to happen at the most inopportune time. So if you don't like something you sure better decide if it's a dislike you can live with when breeding an animal, especially when line breeding because your most likely doubling up on it. Your not just intensifying the good but the bad too. For me, consistency is one of the most important things I look at. If the animal I'm considering is the only one or one of a couple out of a litter that is what I want, they don't get bred unless they are extremely tight bred. But even then their aunts, uncles, etc. etc. have to be right. If they are one of a couple out of an extremely tight bred mating, they can't be bred to just any dog. It should be an immediate family member. Say the dog your wanting is a gyp, she should be bred to her father or brother and no others. Just my opinion. Good thread.

[Amokabs]

Uncle to niece has been a pretty solid formula.

[Cajun]

I have always been a big fan of line breeding & inbreeding. Like said above just make sure the parents are as fault free as possible. It will defitently doulble up on the good as well as the bad characteristics. After a while you will reach a plateau where the dogs seem to revert back to average. (For lack of a better phrase, like said above, blood going stale.lol) I myself like to find another line of close bred dogs with the same characteristics I like for a outcross. Seems like this is where a lot of superstars come from or complete duds. You never know what to expect when you outcross.
  Some of my best crosses were Father to daughter or 1/2 bother to 1/2 sister crosses.
  Of course we are from the country.lol

[YELLOWBLACKMASK]

X2

On the Father X Daughter and 1/2 brother X 1/2 Sister.

Very nice results with those combos.

[Irondog87]

"Best too best, cull the rest" makes it easy. My kinfolk reminded me to not get clouded visions on dogs that you have to make excuses for. If your constantly having to say mabe they will do better next time, it's time to go.
Line breeding for perfection until it plateaus then find the best outcross that is the desire of your hunting style and what you want to add to your line or enhance what you already have.
 

[BigCutters4]

Cajun and YELLOWBLACKMASK what route would you go w the best pups out of that father daughter cross ?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk