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Author Topic: Brother x sister cross  (Read 1796 times)
hillbilly
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« on: August 04, 2015, 03:07:06 pm »

What's the pros and cons?
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E barnes
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« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2015, 05:30:42 pm »

Mine wasnt good they all started well and at about 8 months old red mange took over only 1 out of 6 didnt have it.
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Semmes
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« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2015, 05:39:46 pm »

The most risky and inbred type of breeding. ....as long as the parents were scatter bred or even different breeds then it may take few more gens and dome line breeding to get a true assessment.
Surpasses the father/daughter, mother/son breeding which is inbreeding but also line breeding.
Two half siblings or cousins is line breeding without inbreeding too awful tight as long as a proponent dog isn't stacked hard in both as well.
This is from throughbred breeders and every other type of livestock including dogs.
It a useful tool to determine what crap my ly buried in the woodpile and will almost certainly help bring in out but also could line up to create the best of both parents and grandparents.
Should be willing to cull hard and critically even it the desired traits pop out if some more less desired traits you may not have known about rear up as far as health so as not to incorporate it perponently into the gene pool and taint it further.
From there, outcross on the next generation aggressively to see how the inbred dogs genes lines out with other crosses for desired traits that may best suit the next course of action.
In short it will bring out the good and bad quick and if you get any solid good ones across the board they may make for fine breeding, battle cross, animals throwing determinable set traits.
Willingness to cull hard would be mandatory.
This is assuming the dogs are not cross dogs from get go with no refinement
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Semmes
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« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2015, 05:51:38 pm »

Things like allegergies, cancer, hip dysplasia, mange, eye entropic, deafness, bite problems like parrot mouth in an earlier thread, severe conformational problems to the point of being useless. All the and way more problems in purebred genepools would have to be watched for and culled out. Not to mention you may get some pretty stupid animals in some cases.
Some dogs even when not bred similar on paper or even the same breds may still have the same recessive detrimental traits in genes of the grandparents which line up and are brought to the surface by inbreeding on those animals.
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Semmes
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« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2015, 06:02:23 pm »

Also not limited to physical defects it can show up as mental defects such as extreme shyness, extreme aggression (human or other dog), extreme nevousness leading to mental type handicaps such as OCD or  malifunctions that I can only explain in terms used on humans which may in turn developed into dif physical problems like obbsessive scratching at themselves or a myriad of other things, as well as complete mental retardation
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koyote76
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« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2015, 06:32:48 pm »

When you do a breeding like this you should go into it with  the understanding that your lookong looking for one or maybe 2 pups. This breeding in my mind is made to set the stage for the breedings in the future.There will be culls...but if you're lucky you will get one pup that has what you want that will help keep a line going and have traits that will carryover well with an outcross. You will more than likely get better pups when you do the outcross and when you breed the outcross back.
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hillbilly
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« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2015, 06:47:27 pm »

The parents are not related.
If I can be only expect one or two good pups then why make the cross?
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koyote76
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« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2015, 06:56:31 pm »

If they are unrelated it really wouldnt be too tight.
Most people do this cross as a last resort to save a line....so a few pups with the ability to strongly carry over desired traits is worth it.
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Semmes
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« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2015, 07:01:45 pm »

Agree with coyote ...
...the why is up to you.
Where the grandparents exceptional dogs? Are the offspring exceptional?
If so then ya aint got much to loose but time and feed.
The benefits would be to cleanse the line a bit and set some traits and be able to work from there
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hillbilly
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« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2015, 02:55:53 am »

The grandparents of these dogs were good dogs.
The sire and dam are good dogs.
This litter of pups have turned out better than there parents. Can't say for all the grandparents cause I didn't get to hunt with them all. But the ones I did the pups are better.
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Scott
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« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2015, 06:28:31 am »

I've done it a couple of times and had good results. As with any breeding...you should be prepared to cull. I've been pleased with the outcome of mine.
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ED BARNES
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« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2015, 08:16:46 am »

You will set ALL traits pretty solid, good and BAD! I assume this breeding is for you and you alone, not for sale? Cause you will have to keep them all and watch and cull.
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Reuben
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« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2015, 08:53:50 am »

If you are looking for consistency in breeding better dogs this is a good way to start...you said they are scatter bred but good dogs...don't worry about percentages right now. ..just see it as cleaning the gene pool for future generations...what you will see is the recessive traits pop up good and bad...cull the bad...brother and sister cross have recessive genes hidden because they are not displayed because of the dominant genes...but when each one of the parents pass the same recessive gene for a given trait then the 2 recessive genes become a dominant recessive...and then you will see that trait whether it be a color or hunting trait...I agree with semmes and koyote...and Scott saw lots of good because he already has a decent gene pool going with his dogs...Scott. ..just making an assumption based on previous posts and pics...
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« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2015, 09:34:01 am »

When a dominant gene matches up with a recessive then the dominant gene will be displayed...if a yellow dog is bred to a black dog it is possible to have all black pups for several reasons...the color black in dogs is dominant over yellow...to be yellow, a dog has to inherit a yellow gene from each parent because it is a recessive trait/color...a dog to be black only needs to inherit one black gene even if it pairs up with a yellow gene from the other parent because it is dominant..so if a black dog is bred to a yellow dog and all pups are born black then the black dog carries two black genes because he can only pass one gene and the yellow dog one as well...but more than likely the black dog inherited both black genes and his parent both were black...but if a black dog bred to a yellow dog and some pups are born black and some are born yellow then the black dog is carrying a dominant black and a recessive yellow...sometimes his recessive yellow gene will match up with they yellow dogs gene and now you will have a yellow pup...two yellow genes together become a dominant recessive and that is why the pup is yellow...

And because we don't know all there is to know about genes the best policy is to make sure we keep what does and acts and looks how we want...the best defense is a good offense...so that that is a good reason to keep them related and breed only to those that display similar traits...and retain those pups which display what we want in a dog...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
Reuben
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« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2015, 10:03:03 am »

When breeding brother and sister in my mind...there will be quite a few recessives matched with dominant genes..and making this cross the hope is to see what pops up and then cull needed...I call it cleaning the gene pool..the cream rises to the top. ..
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
Cajun
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« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2015, 01:57:56 pm »

I had a accidental breeding of two siblings. It worked pretty good, made above average dogs but I was surprised that they did not show more grit. The Sire was extremely gritty. Other then that, they had it all.
  I have made several 1/2 brother to 1/2 sister crosses with very good results.
  It is true you will double up on the good traits as well as the bad traits. A recessive gene will never become a Dominent gene. It requires both parents to carry a recessive gene to pass on that trait. You can inbreed as much as 6 generations without any adverse effects unless you had them in the line to start. I want to say it was Texas A & M who did the study on inbreeding & found out that it was in the 6th generation before they started noticing smaller litters & smaller size in the dogs being bred. Physical defects like overbites, Hip Dispasia, Red Mange would have to be in the background somewhere & inbreeding would bring it out.
  I think Rueban might have been referring to colors in Labs and it is a one to talk about.
2 Black Labs if they have all black genes will produce all black.
1 Black Lab with no yellow genes bred to a yellow lab will produce all blacks that carry yellow genes.
1 black lab with yellow genes bred to a yellow will produce half yellow labs & half Black which carry yellow genes.
2 black labs that carry yellow genes bred together will produce 1 in 4 yellows.
The choc. gene is also recessive & it is possible to get all three colors in a Lab.
Black is the dominant color but if the parent has both recessive genes it will produce that trait but they are still recessive genes & that goes for any trait.
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Reuben
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« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2015, 04:12:07 pm »

I was referring to colors to make it easier to understand how dominant and recessive genes work...whether it is color or any other trait...recessive genes are always recessive but it has been mentioned before as dominant recessive only because they are paired up...but only one can be passed on so it is still a recessive...I reckon it was meant as a dominant recessive when it is locked in like the yellow in the black mouth cur...as long as they are bred yellow to yellow...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
Reuben
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« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2015, 06:28:52 pm »

I was referring to colors to make it easier to understand how dominant and recessive genes work...whether it is color or any other trait...recessive genes are always recessive but it has been mentioned before as dominant recessive only because they are paired up...but only one can be passed on so it is still a recessive...I reckon it was meant as a dominant recessive when it is locked in like the yellow in the black mouth cur...as long as they are bred yellow to yellow they will be yellow...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
Reuben
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« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2015, 08:11:16 pm »

But...I have bred 2 yellow dogs and have gotten all brindle pups...so that was a curve ball for sure...I talked to Robert Kemmer and he told me anytime you bred a yellow kemmer anytime to another yellow dog from another breed or strain of mt cur and there will be brindles in the litter...the research I did on that subject is that sometimes a dog appears yo be yellow but in fact it is a brindle but the brindle is faded out...

I chose to talk about color because it is simple...so it seems...but there are other factors that can change the outcome...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
Reuben
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« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2015, 08:28:33 pm »

So breeding brother to sister will expose recessive traits but breeding the offspring to a dog of unknown heritage can take you back to square one...and that is one reason why there are so many culls out there...regardless of whether we are talking about inbreeding or outcrossing...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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