dogs stopping a hog, learned or born with it ????

[buddylee]

 I imagine stopping ability is learned and instictive but I wonder how much of  it comes from genetics and how much of it comes from experience. I recently bought two Campbell cur pups which are an inbred line of dogs know as outstanding dogs. From what I have gathered they are usually natural hog stoppers, stopping and baying the hog. I plan to work them in a pen to speed up the learning process as hog numbers in the woods are low where I hunt. If it can be learned, how should I go about working young dogs ?

[shawn]

hunt  hunt, and hunt some more

[txmaverick]

to much pen work is not a good thing, hunt, hunt, hunt............if you know there is nothing to hunt then make trails for them again to much pen can be a bad thing for young dogs

i would have to say "stopping power" in young dogs is from breeding with experiance adding to that natural instinct with a bit of "learned" ability to finish things off.

Breeding i think is the strongest factor in the "stopping power" of any dog, if they dont have it in them from birth it is sure hard to make it happen no matter how hard you work.

Experiance only adds to the natural ability of the dog, just like with us the more we do something the more natural it becomes. Its the same with dogs, the more they do the more they learn, the better they get.

Learned, this is the hard part. How can you teach a dog to stop a hog without making it to gritty? That seems to be the biggest problem I have seen over the years. You can but the work involved is great that is why breeding is important, you only get peach jam from peaches which only comes from peach trees. Why waist your time trying to make peach jam while useing grapes?

[lonewolf]

hunt  hunt, and hunt some more

I agree and hunt sme more!

[WAARHEID]

How can you teach a dog to stop a hog without making it too gritty? That seems to be the biggest problem I have seen over the years. You can but the work involved is great that is why breeding is important...

Bingo!

This is what we do in lots of aspects of dog breeding. Sheep dogs and bird dogs are great examples of this. With the bird dogs we breed pointers to chase birds... but not catch them. We breed retrievers to want nothing more than to put something in their mouth... and then to happily surrender it to us.
It seems to me that the best bay dog is a bit of a contradiction too. The dog will do whatever it has to do to stop the hog, but then back up and bay. That's a tall order. And it seems like you almost have to specifically breed for this type of dog because the odds of getting it by accident are so low. Breeding a good working dog is hard because in so many ways, we're breeding both for and against different natural instincts at the same time.

[buddylee]

I was referring to either a two acre wooded pen or a 7 acre wooded pen. The hog has somewhere to run versus running in a circle. If a dog has the desire to stop a hog, is there an age where I should expect it oran age where if I'm not seeing it I should move to another dog ?

[BigAinaBuilt]

Hey BuddyLee! I think just like hunting only on a 1000 acre high fence ranch putting a dog in a pen a little to much the dog will learn to count on the fence and  when taken to an open field would be at a disadvantage.All in all it's just a bigger circle! As far as when to give up on a dog that is all up to the hunter and how dissappointed you get with the dog in question.

[djhogdogger]

I think...for what its worth...that they have to be born with the instinct but that they all learn something from each hog that they stop or let get away. Basically, a good hunting dog is born with it, but they hone their skills with experience. Does that make sense?

[txmaverick]

How does hunting a 1000 acre high fence ranch do anything to a dog?

[BigAinaBuilt]

Think MMA Vs. Street fighting. If you're a bigger guy that just comes straight forward swinging for the fences with heavy hands you learn to use the cage to your advantage to "corner" your opponent and pummel them because they have nowhere to run. It is the same way for a dog that never gets the oppurtunity to hunt in the open, They will learn to use the fence to their advantage just like when in a bay pen most of the steady bays take place with a barrier blocking 50% of the hogs ass. When this dog gets put in fenceless pen they will be hoping for a fence and end up either not getting the hog stopped (burnt) or if they have "bottom" they will get the hog stopped 1-5 miles away! (Way to far for me to be answering bark).

[txmaverick]

Well i asked that question since 90% of what i hunt is high fence. Trust me being high fence means nothing. This is where many are mistaken, just because something is high fence doesnt mean it is hog proof. Now there is a difference between high fenced and game proof, a game proof fence is just that "game proof", meaning that anything that cant climb it will not get in or out. So to say a high fence will effect dogs is wrong, if you want to reword and compare a hog proof fence then yes you are right.
The best hog proof fence is not a high fence at all.

Since i hunt several game proof fences that are in the 1000 acre range i will disagree with you bigainabuilt about the swinging for the fence mentality of dogs in that kind of situation, they will work in that range just like they do outside it, now if all you hunt is that kind of country it would be different; but what i see on those kind of places is not the dogs changing but the hogs and its not the fight that changes but the intellect on back trailing, cross trailing, circleing round. They know they cant leave so they try to outsmart the dogs more, I have had a 4 hr run on 900 acres with my top dog eating the privss out of one the whole time.

[BigAinaBuilt]

I hear you on the High VS Game proof fence and I have No experience hunting my dogs on fenced in animals but posted more what I saw it as "easier" but you've got me as far as experience and I've learned experience is usually more on it then what I think will happen! 

[txmaverick]

that is for sure trying to out guess a boar some times is worse than trying to out guess my wife.

[buddylee]

What got me thinking about this was the guy I bought them from has the seven acre pen. He said he can't tell a difference between young dogs started in the pen and those started in the woods. He said the same thing about the hogs getting smart. He said in a little pen the hogs can't really go any where and they know it. In a bigger pen they run for the other side and learn this habit. Thats why I was thinking it would be a good idea to help get young dogs started "huntin' and maybe learn to stop one. Figured I might could see which ones will do it or learn it. Keep the ones who will and get rid of the rest. Lotta hogs here run for miles. I can't run that far .

[BigAinaBuilt]

I have nothing against getting a dog started in a pen no matter the size I just think if that is what the dog is used to it will begin to rely on it and be at a disadvantage when in the open compared to trained in the open and then run in a pen.

[Reuben]

to much pen work is not a good thing, hunt, hunt, hunt............if you know there is nothing to hunt then make trails for them again to much pen can be a bad thing for young dogs

i would have to say "stopping power" in young dogs is from breeding with experiance adding to that natural instinct with a bit of "learned" ability to finish things off.

Breeding i think is the strongest factor in the "stopping power" of any dog, if they dont have it in them from birth it is sure hard to make it happen no matter how hard you work.

Experiance only adds to the natural ability of the dog, just like with us the more we do something the more natural it becomes. Its the same with dogs, the more they do the more they learn, the better they get.

Learned, this is the hard part. How can you teach a dog to stop a hog without making it to gritty? That seems to be the biggest problem I have seen over the years. You can but the work involved is great that is why breeding is important, you only get peach jam from peaches which only comes from peach trees. Why waist your time trying to make peach jam while useing grapes?

This thread is a year old but I liked txmaverics response so I drug it back up.

[Reuben]

How can you teach a dog to stop a hog without making it too gritty? That seems to be the biggest problem I have seen over the years. You can but the work involved is great that is why breeding is important...

Bingo!

This is what we do in lots of aspects of dog breeding. Sheep dogs and bird dogs are great examples of this. With the bird dogs we breed pointers to chase birds... but not catch them. We breed retrievers to want nothing more than to put something in their mouth... and then to happily surrender it to us.
It seems to me that the best bay dog is a bit of a contradiction too. The dog will do whatever it has to do to stop the hog, but then back up and bay. That's a tall order. And it seems like you almost have to specifically breed for this type of dog because the odds of getting it by accident are so low. Breeding a good working dog is hard because in so many ways, we're breeding both for and against different natural instincts at the same time.

Excellent post.


In my mind a rough cow dog that wants to windmill a herd of cows or hogs and will do all it can to stop and bring back a hog/cow that broke from the herd might make a great hog dog if the dog has a good nose and a lot of hunt.

It would be nice to have four or five of these dogs that wouldn't get rough unless told to catch.

Usually, gritty strike dogs get rough if 2 or more are hunting together and sometimes one real gritty strike dog will try to stop a hog but will back up and bay once the hog is stopped. This doesn't always work.

I think the bay pen is good for a young dog so that he/she can get experience and confidence to stop a hog. Once this happens there is no need to put the dog in a pen.

A lot of the kemmers, especially the females will learn to stop the hog by grabbing the back end of a running hog and sit down like a roping horse and then let go and circle to the front end and bay. The dog also learns that as the hog wears down, to circle to the back end and work on it. As the hog wears down the dog circles to the back end more often and hangs on for longer periods of time. In my opinion, a well bred hunting dog with the right amount of bay pen training makes for a better hog dog as long as it is the right amount of training.

But to answer the question; It is my belief that a hog dog is born and it can learn to hunt in the woods just by exposing him to the right game, but I also believe that training can take him to a higher level at an earlier age.

[charles]

genetics and training are both key feature in our dogs. i was out feeding my training pigs and 1 of the pups from my current litter went with me. he is 8wks old and weighs a whopping 12lbs already, but when threw the corn over the fence, the hogs ran to it and he started barking and running in circles and would stop and start barking again and then tried to climb in the pen. he has never seen a pig before, only heard my older pups and of course all the other dogs on chains barking. i dont know yet if it is in genetics or just couriosity but im hoping for genetics since both parents are hog dogs. i think he is on a fast track for success, im gonna start letting him run around the pen and watch what is going on and get a lot bigger b4 i put him in there, i got a sow who wont hesitate to run up to an unaware dog and get her a mouthfull of the dog. a lil role reversal goin on

[BarrNinja]

I imagine stopping ability is learned and instictive but I wonder how much of  it comes from genetics and how much of it comes from experience. I recently bought two Campbell cur pups which are an inbred line of dogs know as outstanding dogs. From what I have gathered they are usually natural hog stoppers, stopping and baying the hog. I plan to work them in a pen to speed up the learning process as hog numbers in the woods are low where I hunt. If it can be learned, how should I go about working young dogs ?

So how is it that this blood line stops a hog anyway? There is more than one way a dog stops a hog and a stock bred dog is going to get ahead of hogs to stop and bunch them before they will put a mouth on them if they can.

I think hog stopping and bay style go hand and hand. I also think baying pups a little “around” a small circular pen is better than dropping them in a pen with a hog.

Im no cowboy and do not work my dogs on cattle but ask some of these cowboys on this board about “bay style” in a dog and how it relates to shutting hogs down. You never hear them whining about getting burned or outran. I know it happens to us all but I think it happens a lot less with the cowboys and their dogs because of how their dogs are bread and how they are trained/worked (wired) from an early age.

Its breeding and training/working/hunting in my opinion that makes the best hog dogs but its best to start with the breeding like you have lonewolf.