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Author Topic: Finder Holders  (Read 9269 times)
Slim9797
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« Reply #80 on: November 04, 2015, 09:25:08 am »

I want to know how you can call a mans dogs junk, or tell him what they can and cannot do or in what areas they will fail to perform... Especially if you have never hunted behind the dogs?
Black streak, I spend quite a lot of time on here just reading and I can say your name along with judge peel and a few others have stuck out to me as guys who are very modest and knowledgable. You've got about as much of my respect as i can give through a screen
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« Reply #81 on: November 04, 2015, 03:08:12 pm »

Slim I think you exactly right, I have no clue and for all I know them dogs will catch every hog in the world, I'm merely speculating!   
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Fixitlouie
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« Reply #82 on: November 04, 2015, 08:24:23 pm »

Dam I go away for three days and this site looks like FB....lol

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Black Streak
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« Reply #83 on: November 04, 2015, 08:31:13 pm »

I want to know how you can call a mans dogs junk, or tell him what they can and cannot do or in what areas they will fail to perform... Especially if you have never hunted behind the dogs?
Black streak, I spend quite a lot of time on here just reading and I can say your name along with judge peel and a few others have stuck out to me as guys who are very modest and knowledgable. You've got about as much of my respect as i can give through a screen


Thank you slim.   I appreciate that very much  and i know peel and the others do as well.    
I'll have to finish my thought later ttomorrow cause my wife as slipped me a.sleeping pill.and I'mseeing ddoubledarn!  
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Silverton Boar Dogs
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« Reply #84 on: November 04, 2015, 11:37:52 pm »

Finder holders, yea they really are the deal. The most efficient dogs I hunt.

They have nothing in common with RCD's different beast entirely.

Black Streak, I know him, good man, solid dogman, his dogs? Top notch.

There are many good finder holders working in Texas, proven dogs, proven style..... To question that is really kinda silly and for the uneducated.

Cheers,
Paul T
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Black Streak
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« Reply #85 on: November 05, 2015, 06:48:55 am »

Well hello Paul!     Very very nice to see you on here again!     

Slim, sorry about my last reply.    I just flew in from work and  took a sleep aid  early last night that would allow me to sleep all night and allow me to reset me sleep schedule and get back on days with the rest of the people in this part of the world lol.   Anyway I do appreciate you thoughts as you expressed them. 
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charles
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« Reply #86 on: November 05, 2015, 07:16:09 am »

Black streak, where did u just fly in from?
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Slim9797
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« Reply #87 on: November 05, 2015, 07:18:38 am »

It's no problem black streak. Could I ask you what you have found to be the biggest differences between say a generic RCD and your finder holders? To me just looking at pictures, I imagine they are a lot faster,  due to what they are crossed with I bet they catch harder, and I think their size and overall build probably saves them from taking a beating as often as a RCD. Atleast that's what I conclude from the pictures
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Black Streak
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« Reply #88 on: November 05, 2015, 07:30:00 am »

Black streak, where did u just fly in from?


Alaska.    That's where i work.    I work two weeks on and am off two weeks.      Fixing to go 3 and 3
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Black Streak
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« Reply #89 on: November 05, 2015, 07:31:13 am »

It's no problem black streak. Could I ask you what you have found to be the biggest differences between say a generic RCD and your finder holders? To me just looking at pictures, I imagine they are a lot faster,  due to what they are crossed with I bet they catch harder, and I think their size and overall build probably saves them from taking a beating as often as a RCD. Atleast that's what I conclude from the pictures


I will reply to that later when I have time.   I promise I will though.
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charles
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« Reply #90 on: November 05, 2015, 08:48:22 am »

Black streak, where did u just fly in from?


Alaska.    That's where i work.    I work two weeks on and am off two weeks.      Fixing to go 3 and 3

I know what you mean on the time diff. I hated working days while in afghanistan and iraq. When i would come hm, my internal clock was on the opposite side of the clock, plus i cant sleep on airliners and that 15hr flt across the pond sucks. Them 2 and 1s are nice, 2 and 2 would better, but i dont think i could do a 3 and 3 right now, but if we end up going to south america, it will be a 28 days on and 28 days off. Hopefully within the next 2-3yrs, we will have at least 1 heavy lift in S A. Whats your proffession?
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« Reply #91 on: November 05, 2015, 11:59:57 am »

It's no problem black streak. Could I ask you what you have found to be the biggest differences between say a generic RCD and your finder holders? To me just looking at pictures, I imagine they are a lot faster,  due to what they are crossed with I bet they catch harder, and I think their size and overall build probably saves them from taking a beating as often as a RCD. Atleast that's what I conclude from the pictures


I don't have any eexperience with what most peoples definition of a rcd is.   I will compare what most consider an rcd on here to what I consider a finder holder.          There have been a few others on here such as SilvertonBoarDogs that could articulate the differences better than I can though.          First I would like to point out that finder holders are not a certain dog but are wide ranging.    Some are smaller than my dogs and some are larger.    Most are crosses but some are pure.   Different crosses are made for different reasons.   Some to speed up the mental maturity of the big dogs and some crosses are for strength and some for adding speed.    There are pro's and con's to different styles of finder holders and people that use them tend to tweek them to how they want them.    Generally the dogs used in the crosses are all catch dogs such as mastiff, dane, boxer, pit, bull,  wolfhound,  deerhound,  and stags.   I'm sure i left out a couple.    All these dogs mentioned are straight catch but have different attributes and different things they bring to the table but most all of these breeds are not what they once were orginally when they were first developed.    The dane and boxer were originally bred for boar hunting as catch dogs.   The dane would have been the original finder holder I'm sure.    Even the danes we have here in America still as pets when hunted by finder holder guys will almost always make decent finder holders with some being a little to much for a lot of guys that have used them, but danes like that will not be the norm now days.   The dane has also gotten to big and suffers health problems as a result and will not hold up well to the stresses put on its body as they used too.  Reasons like this are some of the reasons why pure bred are not used but rather crossed,  to somewhat in a weird way get back the dog they once where. 
I'll see if I can stop rambling and just answere the question lol.   Finder holder are used to hunt for pigs by smell primarily.   If not
hunting finder holders by smell but rather by sight primarily you could use stags for that work.   Even good stags will wind pigs and go to them from a little ways off but they are used primarily as sight dogs.    Finder holders need to be at a minimum faster than a pig and the faster the better for the most part.   Their body design helps them tremendously in keeping themselves safe when holding a good boar.   Their length of neck combined with their length of leg prevents the boar from being able to punish them as much and keeps what punishment there is being dished out, in the well protected neck, chest and front shoulder area.     Rarely will a boar be able to get one of these dogs in a position where he can run a tusk in behind the front sholder.     They must possess the speed it takes to run a fleeing hog down in short order and catch it.    One of the biggest reasons these dogs are able to keep themselves injury their ability and style of catching pigs emmediatly and not allowing the pig to run to a desired spot to make its stand.  Granted good boars are sometimes caught in bad places that he had rather have made his stand at than anywhere else but even then the attributes of these dogs help them to fair well.     For instance water,   catch a boar sleeping in a water hole in the hot summer.   The dogs length of leg allows it to stand and maneuver in shallow water better than a dog that can't touch good and is having to swim.    Last hog I caught in the water with bay dogs and bull dogs ate our lunch.   Water was a wide water canal looking thing and was about knee deep.    The boar could touch ok and could run and spin and fight very effectively in the water.    The bay dogs and bull dogs could not touch well at all.   Many of them were laid up for weeks after that hunt healing.    The boar was struck in a fairly open area by the curs and was allowed to go where it wanted before making his stand.       If a finder holder finds a boar close to the water or close to extremely dense brush, the boar will not be able to get to the water or brush.   Usually!     The size of a finder holder is an asset but only if the dog is strong and powerful and is extremely athletic and agile.    A big slow powerful dog don't make the cut as finder holders usually as they would allow to many hogs to get away from them or reach good cover before catching them.     The power and agility and speed of a finder holder not only allows it to catch pigs where they are found but hold them there also.    Many boars are caught in dense thickets.   Again the power of these dogs coupled with their agility and body structure allow them to keep themselves safer rather than being waded up and pumaled while still holding on.    Their agility and along with how alot of their minds work will have them holding on to the boar but still jumping out of the way of objects the boar is trying to drive them into or and they will stear the boar.
Too much bull blood in a finder holder can influence this style of holding and cause the dog not to hold smart but rather hold with brute force.    Finder holders have a little different mind to them than bull dogs when it comes to holding but still won't let go.    They process thing a little differently which contributes to there good holding style.   They don't have the mindset of a pit when they are holding a pig but are still similarly as hard.   Kinda hard to begin to think about taking the title away from the pit as being the hardest dog but a good finder holder won't be letting go either.
   Finder holders need lots of endurance and stamina.   Not only because they actively search for pigs but in large part because they are their holding a pig for longer than normal.  Your not just hot on the heels of one of these dogs when it first makes contact with the pig.    It's not uncommon for my dogs to be caught 700 yards away.   These dogs have a time limite.   They can't hold indefinitely but different finder holders can hold longer than others, thus a dog that can't hold long before wearing down should not be a deep hunter.    Finder holder such as a good dane will often times hunt far out and take his nose a mile off and catch a pig.    My dogs cant hold that long before getting their nor would I expect them too but a good dane I would.   See how the world of finder holder breeding works.   There are lots of different variations you can have and breed for, it's just what style suits you best and the amount of country you have to cover.    In a heavily dense brush area I would not want a dane finder holder.    Such a dog would be miss matched to the environment,  not because he couldn't effectively do his job, no no no! It would be because he has the goods to get out of your effective range it would take you to get to him before he tired out. 
You can hunt  finder holders any way you hunt a cur dog.   Rig dogs, casting, walking, sight, lead in style like a bull dog etc.   One thing I would not do is run them on the ground with gritty or loose curs though.
Your finder holder should be the first dog to the hog.   Not the second or the third.   In my opinion with most packs of hunting dogs,  a finder holder would be ineffective and also dead at a young age.   
   Compare these types of dogs with the normal rcd as recognized by most on this forum.   Pit x cur of something similar.      Even though the rcd might be as hard as a good finder holder bred dog, it's not gonna have the same mindset or thought processes I wouldn't think.   Many other things would also be different about the two dogs BUT who's to say your rcd can not be used as a finder holder if the dog is hard enough to go 1 out on a decent boar.    To me, the biggest difference would be how the dog is hunted but a LOT of little other things go into making up a good finder holder rather than what is known as the rcd on this forum.          I would also think, a good purposely bred finder holder would fair much better in keeping itself injury free than the normal rcd when running under the same circumstances as a finder holder.
 Oh, 1 other thing.     It is my opinion that a finder holder should fully be capable of holding decent boars by themselves.     Not because I run one out because I dont.    I run 2 dogs down usually but not all the time do both dogs catch the same pig and sometimes if one dog smells a pig and catches while the other is hunting a little ways off, the other dog my be totally unaware of the catch because the hog is not making a sound.    Have experienced these two examples many times and therefore I want my finder holders to be fully capable of running 1 out...

   Slim, since I don't have much if any experience with rcd's I did not want to describe them much and compare them much to a finder holder, but rather tell you what my opinion of a finder holder is and let you see the differences for yourself.     I also did not want to knock any type of dog because they can all be fun and used effectively all over this world and in any type of terrain.   Just need the right combination of dogs.      In my opinion rcd's are very effective when run as a pack or with extremely gritty bay dogs.       It is also my opinion that a finder holder could also fit in well in a pack of extreme gritty bay dogs but very few packs would be suitable for such a dog to run in, in my opnion.    Judge, cracker, Taz and anyone else that runs curs that are almost straight catch could probably incorporate one of my dogs into their pack.   Short of packs like this,  you would take away to much of what makes a finder holder an effectiv dog.
   SilvertonBoarDogs (Paul) does many types of hunting with dogs.    He has a plethora of dogs he can mix and match and does run finder holder type dogs with other dogs now and then I do belive.    But he is a very smart dog man and knows his dogs very well and is able to pair them together very purposely and effectively with great outcomes whether he run them with stags,  curs, or dogos.
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Black Streak
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« Reply #92 on: November 05, 2015, 12:04:57 pm »

Black streak, where did u just fly in from?


Alaska.    That's where i work.    I work two weeks on and am off two weeks.      Fixing to go 3 and 3

I know what you mean on the time diff. I hated working days while in afghanistan and iraq. When i would come hm, my internal clock was on the opposite side of the clock, plus i cant sleep on airliners and that 15hr flt across the pond sucks. Them 2 and 1s are nice, 2 and 2 would better, but i dont think i could do a 3 and 3 right now, but if we end up going to south america, it will be a 28 days on and 28 days off. Hopefully within the next 2-3yrs, we will have at least 1 heavy lift in S A. Whats your proffession?
   



I am a driller on a drilling rig.         I can sleep so so on the planes but I'm still rung out when I get home.    If II'm so tired I want to go to bed early I will just take a sleep aid so i don't wake up after 4 hours of great sleep and want to get up and go start my day at 1 am lol.    If I take a sleep aid like advil pm of something,  I will usually sleep a little longer and get back in the groove of things very quickly especially since I'll have a slept a little on the planes.
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Judge peel
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« Reply #93 on: November 05, 2015, 12:17:34 pm »

Black streak good write up on your dogs. By what you said you could classify two of mine as finder holders minus the speed one is pretty fast for a cur but the other ain't lol I have seen them caught on a hog a mile plus get there and hog has no ears and they will pull off cheek arm pits what ever they can get hold of. With any thing it takes playing with game to find the sweet spot 


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« Reply #94 on: November 05, 2015, 01:01:24 pm »

Black streak. Do your line of the finder/holders have any dog aggression?
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Slim9797
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« Reply #95 on: November 05, 2015, 01:32:40 pm »

Blackstreak. I appreciate you taking the time to explain the difference. I tell my buddies all the time I wish I could just talk dogs all day. I just got a cur pit cross that has a little bit of hound in him not sure what but the guy who bred him thinks it might have been whippet or greyhound I think is what he said. This dog hunts fairly deep and is straight catch. But unlike the pics of your finder holder dogs he does not parallel his body with the hog, he catches at a 90 like any normal bulldog usually does but for being 6 years old he doesn't look like he's taken to hard of a beating. I run a strike vest on him for extra measure but I know his original owner didnt run anything more than a cut collar. This dog isn't a big dog in fact he's built like a small agile cur dog but has that blocky pitbull head. He does strike his own and will blow out of the county on a hot track. I run him on the ground with are other dogs because they are all pretty rough. Anyway with the little I have hunted this dog and the way you have described your finder holders, I can see a big difference. Sounds like the breeding of finder holders was done with the idea of making a running catch dog whose build and brains are directly the cause of the longevity of their hunting careers. RCDs sound like they come a dime a dozen when compared to a finder holder
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charles
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« Reply #96 on: November 05, 2015, 01:39:28 pm »

Black streak, where did u just fly in from?


Alaska.    That's where i work.    I work two weeks on and am off two weeks.      Fixing to go 3 and 3

I know what you mean on the time diff. I hated working days while in afghanistan and iraq. When i would come hm, my internal clock was on the opposite side of the clock, plus i cant sleep on airliners and that 15hr flt across the pond sucks. Them 2 and 1s are nice, 2 and 2 would better, but i dont think i could do a 3 and 3 right now, but if we end up going to south america, it will be a 28 days on and 28 days off. Hopefully within the next 2-3yrs, we will have at least 1 heavy lift in S A. Whats your proffession?
   



I am a driller on a drilling rig.         I can sleep so so on the planes but I'm still rung out when I get home.    If II'm so tired I want to go to bed early I will just take a sleep aid so i don't wake up after 4 hours of great sleep and want to get up and go start my day at 1 am lol.    If I take a sleep aid like advil pm of something,  I will usually sleep a little longer and get back in the groove of things very quickly especially since I'll have a slept a little on the planes.

I'm assuming your on the north slope around prudo bay? Not sure when it was, I think in the mid 2000s a drilling company wanted to see if one of our 107s could pull a 20,000# (I think, I'd hade to research that particular job) load on a hover craft. It looked as if the Heli was in like 70 degree nose down pitch attitude to get a near strait line pull on the load, but evidently it was just the position the photographer was in.
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charles
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« Reply #97 on: November 05, 2015, 01:44:13 pm »

Hey black streak, I was completely wrong, it was in the 80s and the load was 40 tons with a combined total between load and hover barge was 220 tons. Here is the link.

http://www.colheli.com/news/the_hover_barge/

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Black Streak
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« Reply #98 on: November 05, 2015, 01:50:10 pm »

Black streak. Do your line of the finder/holders have any dog aggression?


These dogs are not my line.   There the line of dogs from another guy who is a member of this forum.
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Black Streak
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« Reply #99 on: November 05, 2015, 02:06:22 pm »

Hey black streak, I was completely wrong, it was in the 80s and the load was 40 tons with a combined total between load and hover barge was 220 tons. Here is the link.

http://www.colheli.com/news/the_hover_barge/





Holly crap, that's a wicked looking picture lol
      I'm actually not on the slope.   I'm drilling on the kenia peninsula.
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