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Author Topic: need some of yall's input  (Read 2181 times)
l.h.cracker
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« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2015, 10:23:09 am »

I like the breakdown slim hard to argue with the numbers.
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redriverslim
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« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2015, 10:24:14 am »

Good post red river. People always think adding pit will answer there dreams of having a rough dog ya its a easy fix but your just taking away from each breed. Imo


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I agree 100%.  I've made the bulldog/baydog cross several times over the years and raised the pups, and spent all that time getting them going and all that work, etc. It jut seems to never pay off.  The results are just too inconsistent in the pups, and if you just reach in the puppy pen and decide to keep the "2 best ones" (lol) and sell the rest or whatever, you just don't know if you're picking the right ones.  You waste a lot of time and get disappointed when they turn out to be straight catch dogs "or" straight bay dogs.  So you really need to keep the whole litter to see this project through until the end. For me, it just costs too much and its too inconsistent.  Now I can breed my two best bulldogs together, and I can almost guarantee that they are gonna catch . . . every one of them.  The same can be said for breeding you two best find/bay dogs together. You know what you're gonna get, or at least have a pretty good idea because your breeding similar traits.  When you cross two totally different breeds with two totally separate functions . . . it just seem to "cross-fire" as I like to call it.  I call it buying "scratch off" tickets.

It's so much easier to let the other fellow do the experimenting and then just go buy the end result from him.  All you're really doing at the end of the day is buying the other man's hard work.  You ALWAYS come out cheaper.  
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Sambo5500
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« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2015, 10:52:57 am »

I am totally with judge and slim on this. I have a great cur x pit mix but it is not the norm. Mine is what people want when they make the cross but it does not usually happen that way. Like slim said and like I said earlier you will pretty much have to keep the whole litter to get what you want. When it hits right it's very good but highly unlikely. I got lucky and bought mine from a guy that sold him to young. I do have a buddy that also has a cur x pit gyp that is showing some of the right things so far. If she keeps progressing we have talked about breeding them and see if we can get a higher percentage of what we want from the cross.
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Semmes
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« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2015, 11:50:54 am »

Here's a link to an old thread on here.
http://www.easttexashogdoggers.com/forum/index.php?topic=83330.0

I bred the second dog pictured in the thread.

It was a total accidental breeding...never would have set out to do it, but it happened.

Only four pups of the litter made it the first week. Of that I was glad because there were 13 born and I didn't know what the hell I was gonna do with all them damn puppies lol

Of the four I kept one, place two with close hunting buds and gave one to an old couple that we hunt for only because they demanded I do so because they wanted it. I knew it would be too much dog for them when it got older tho.

One of my buds was spooky and was culled, the other was dog aggressive to a fault and was culled. I was hoping the one I kept would be kinda a gritty baydog with a bit of hunt. We put him in a pen with a feisty decent size hog at about 5-6 months old And he went straight in and caught right on the ear. He is a natural.
I didn't want him as a catchdog because I have bulldogs for that so I have him to a mutual friend that's a hunter in a town that has outlawed pitbulls (bsl). They love him down there and he has made a hell of a cd.
The one the old couple had turned out to be too much for them and we rehomed it and it ran off lol.

All this to say that I agree with red and judge. Out of those four only 1 turned out. 25% ain't good odds just too many variables to work out with crossing dif breeds.

Now I did a recent cross with same dam that I set out purposely to do. I bred her to a game dog. I wanted to add some things that were lacking in the ab breed for hog hunting, and that is jmo, I know other folks like their fine. And I too like mine... I just wanted a touch more wind and better teeth among a few other things.
The dam is linebred from a proven catchdog line of abs, the sire is a game dog, but from a catchweight line and I saw his sire catch for many years and sine of his siblings as well. Yes, being gamebred, they are kind of a pain in the butt on hunts at times. But I figured the ab and line she came from, being known for their good temperament and handle would even that issue out. So far those pups are just over a year and they have turned out to be just what I wanted and expected/hoped for.
I think two similar bullbreeds that are individually line bred on certain traits and as similar as the standard ab and a pitbull can be crossed to produce a better and more predictable outcome % wise
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redriverslim
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« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2015, 03:49:46 pm »

I 100% agree with Semmes in every way.  I also am breeding an AB female to a game APBT stud.  I don't have to worry about the inconsistency of inheritable traits because it's bulldog to bulldog.  While being different breeds, they still have the same function at their core, to catch anything with fur on it and not let go.  But the bulldog/cur cross, well that's different. 

Here are the results of two of the bulldog/baydog crosses I made:

1) Bred a stomp down catching machine APBT 60 lbs. to a Jude Hart bred yellow cur, real good go yonder gyp, loose bay, not gritty, but find a hog.
2) Also made the cross the opposite way. I bred my Rip dog, go yonder Hart bred male, real good dog to a real good bulldog gyp.   

I forgot how many pups were between the 2 litters but I ended up keeping 6 puppies. I won't separate the pups into two different categories for sake of this discussion because both the yeller dogs used were both real good dogs and similar bred, 1/2 bro and sis, and the bulldogs were both top notch.
So out of these 6 dogs, we hunted them in groups of 2 at a time, with 2 seasoned older dogs on the ground with them.  Never taking a bunch of puppies at the same time so they wouldn't pick up bad habits from each other. Sometimes we ran just one pup with 2 or 3 older dogs finished dogs. Ran Garmins on everything.  Waited until they around a year old to start them, and we had them going with some real deal yeller dogs too, not something trashy.  Started them in a 5 acre training pen, the whole deal.  I'm saying that they weren't just thrown to the wolves and told to make it or die.  They were actually brought along right.  Out of the 6 . . . NONE MADE IT.

Here's what I got: A couple would pack-up and go step for step, even if it was a mile or more.  They would either just be another "me too" loose baying help dog, or the other extreme and be a "wanna-be" catch dog.  Not enough bulldog blood.  This is a common problem with this cross.  The pup thinks he's a real bulldog and he's only half of one.  Just nothing more than a bay buster as far as I'm concerned.  A couple of them would range out about 500 yards tops, turn around and come back to the ATV's, but take em to the bay and turn em loose and they thought they were bulldogs too, but they weren't either.  So these were useless as find dogs "or" catch dogs.  Nothing more than a liability.  One pup was inconsistent, looked like a million one day, and junk the next.  He didn't know whether he wanted to be a hunting baydog or a catch dog, just depended on the day.   And finally the last one showed a lot of promise.  He would pack up, or break off and hunt by himself.  Had a range of about 3/4 mile (in no sign).  He was at almost every bay, not too rough like a bay buster, but gritty.  We really like this dog.  He found and stopped two hogs on his own.  Then one day, he just decided he couldn't stand it and turned into a straight running catch dog, which is OK if you like or need that, but all my older dogs were loose baying find and stop bay dogs.  So now you got this puppy catching everything and the older dogs are now backing him.  Well this pup aint the bulldog he thinks he is, so he's getting the older dogs cut down.  I gave him to guy and last I heard he was using him as a lead in catch dog and loved him.

The percentages and consistency are just not there.  Of the ones I gave away from the two litters, all reports I got back were similar and most all of them were culled as far as I know.         
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redriverslim
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« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2015, 04:34:57 pm »

P.S. . . . As a side note, I will NEVER make another bulldog/baydog cross again, and if anyone on this board sees me doing it, please make an intervention and call me out on it, lol.   I've done it 4 times, and I have a buddy whose probably done it about 4 or 5 times as well over the years.  He has real good yella dogs (top notch stuff) and real good bulldogs too.  We talk about this subject on occasion and we both agree that it never works out to a degree that would make you want to do it again.  It's just a waste of time and a whole lot of effort and work and training and hunting, just to get disappointed.  I believe that bulldogs have a very specific purpose, and it needs to be kept pure and not messed with.  It's not the cur that messes up the cross, it's the bulldog that messes it up.  REAL bulldogs are just so "task specific" that they don't need to be confused by crossing them other breeds.   
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Reuben
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« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2015, 07:14:50 pm »

I have been kicking it around for a while but here lately these running hogs have me at my wits end. I actually got fed up enough to take the 30-30 last time I went which worked out well but I'm out there to catch hogs not shoot them. So my question is how much luck would I have breeding my lead strike dog male to my lead catch dog which is full pit? She is more of the older style pit so she has a decent build not just a bully dog. I am wanting either a dog that's rough enough to stop it or flat out catch I don't care. I just didn't know if they would come like I need them to because I know it looks good on paper but what actually comes out is a different story

if you breed pit with cur dog you want to breed as similar traits as you can...a pit bull that is built leggy that has some hunt to him as well as some of his close kin having had similar traits...the cur dog should have plenty of hunt and  with a decent nose...and a gritty tight baying cur dog...

This time around I have a redbone/pitbull cross and his 2 sons that are quarter redbone, quarter pitbull, and 1/2 mt cur...bred one of the 1/2 mt cur with a plott gyp and now have 1/8th pit pups...time will tell what I will have but so far I am happy with the 3 older dogs and the pups are looking pretty good at this time...

I just got rid of a 1/2 parker 1/2 pitbull that was given to me as a pup because she didn't have either of her parents qualities...she started out looking like a cur and she matured into a pitbull looking dog that didn't have a nose, hunt nor any catch...she is a good me too catch dog but me too catch dogs are a dime a dozen...I want all the traits I mentioned but not a solid catching cur/pit mix...

ultimately I want a few dogs that are telling the hog if you run I will rip your nuts out then I will catch you by your ear...A hog can read a dog...and he will pay close attention if he believes it...

if you breed to a stock type dog make sure it has lots of hunt and a great nose and can find a hog...
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Semmes
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« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2015, 07:41:43 pm »

The catahoula in the post above that bred my ab by accident is 10yrs old now. He is hot nosed and got plenty of hunt and bottom once he gets in one...as much as his older body will let him nowadays.
Gritty as can be but will bay even smaller hogs by himself but once another dog gets there it's on. He wears scars to proove he be left holding the bag in more than one occasion over the years.

Guess his proponent genetics lined up pretty well with the ab in that one dog.

He is a very blocky built sob... Lots folks on leases we hunt ask if he is a pit mix. But he is all cat out of mason chilli/blue breeding
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Semmes
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« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2015, 08:04:35 pm »

I plan to bred that cross pup back into one these pit cross pups with same dam down the road...since he came out straight catch and fold that into a cross of one these other pit cross pups bred with a full performance ab breeding I did with the same dam as well. And therefore line breed on that b!tch with a gamedog out, a catahoula out, and a performance ab out. Ought ta be plenty of genes to work with in the future with all those dogs and all being out of proven catchdogs.

This is purely catchdog breeding scheme. If it works out over the next four years ought to be some pretty healthy and genetically diverse but line bred dogs at the same time, by trying to cinch down on traits with all the tools to be not only great catchdogs but athletes as well...

Off topic I know...but it has been a plan in my head and I don't intend to over accelerate the process either....chit may change over time...

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Reuben
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« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2015, 08:23:42 pm »

Semmes...I am bringing it from the other angle...a little more power and a stronger jaw and yet retain all the hunting/strike dog traits that I like in a strike dog...some will be a little too catchy but hopefully I will breed one or 2 with the right blend of traits...
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Semmes
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« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2015, 08:34:45 pm »

I can appreciate that approach...

It's all about a vision...breeding working dogs...

No matter what angle or goal or application, one has to keep vision and breed (and cull) toward it.

Catchdogs is what brougt me into hog hunting and that is still where my heart is

But I sure wouldn't have any hog to catch without strike/bay dogs lol

Glad I got folks around me whose vision is in that arena. We all mutually benifit haha
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ED BARNES
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« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2015, 08:11:17 am »

Heres my take on running hogs...rougher is not always the answer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUvbcb4BGdE
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Judge peel
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« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2015, 11:28:52 am »

That fella made few key points that I like and agree with. One was that people say well you can't catch the hogs over here there or at my buddy's place total nonsense like this guy stated. Second rough dogs ain't the answer most of the time it ain't bout rough or loose. It's bout having the right dogs. Another was every one thinks there right this is the biggest one lol the more open minded you are the better you can adapt to what's going on jmo


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WayOutWest
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« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2015, 11:41:45 am »

You said a mouthful right there when you said you needed to be open minded about something. Soon as you make blanket statements about a subject, someone is gonna come along and make you look like a fool!
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l.h.cracker
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« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2015, 01:33:48 pm »

I totally agree Judge and way-out. There ain't nothing set in stone bout the best way to catch a hog.The pit crosses that I have and plan on in the future come from pits that strike and catch hogs as well as the Curs the only added benefit for the cross is heavier catching on one side and heat tolerance and endurance on the other side.I agree that crossing a loose dog and a walk in catch dog would be highly unlikely to get what you're after but if both sides lines already perform similarly then its not such a crap shoot. That being said I retract my earlier statement.
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« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2015, 03:30:28 pm »

That fella made few key points that I like and agree with. One was that people say well you can't catch the hogs over here there or at my buddy's place total nonsense like this guy stated. Second rough dogs ain't the answer most of the time it ain't bout rough or loose. It's bout having the right dogs. Another was every one thinks there right this is the biggest one lol the more open minded you are the better you can adapt to what's going on jmo


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x2... Keep an empty cup!!! If you're cup is too full, there is no room for more. Grin so many different styles of hunting, different dog breeds, crosses, to each his own... But if anyone thinks there way is end all be all they are most certainly wrong. There are so many ways this can be done and done "right"...
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