Putting young in the woods

[Gibson]

About what are do y'all start to let pups go on actual hunts?

[Black Streak]

I like to start easing mine in to actual hunts  at around 1 yr old but i do my best to insure they do not encounter anything big.    At 18 months old I don't mind them getting on big stuff and will start hunting them as finder holders around this time for two reasons.  1 being they are most likely experienced enough now to feel some good pigs and 2 is because the big dogs skeletal  structure is normally finished maturing by this time and can start to handle a heavy work load and strenuous exercise without running much risk of causing an early onset of arthritis in its joints.     Once the bones, joints, ligaments and tendons have fully developed,  i give them the full hunting experience and I let them run and hunt as hard and as much as they want.

[Judge peel]

Some folks say 6 months some say a year old I will take them when I feel they are ready for the action lol. But I usely just keep on a lead till the others are bayed or caught then turn loose after few time of that and I see kinda what there doing I will match them with a similar set and let them get after it


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[Black Streak]

Some folks say 6 months some say a year old I will take them when I feel they are ready for the action lol. But I usely just keep on a lead till the others are bayed or caught then turn loose after few time of that and I see kinda what there doing I will match them with a similar set and let them get after it


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Wheres the science in this?   You go off of way to much feel and not near enough science Judge!    Shame on you for using  your feelings!     

[hoghunter71409]

I have five pups now that range from 5 months old to 9 months old.  I've taken them to the woods twice and casted them with one older dog in no sign.  I do this so pups learn to go with another or other dogs.  I cast around creeks or thick woods to see what pups will do and what they wont do.  I like to expose them to small creeks and other obstacles early.  There is plenty of time to get them on hogs after a year old.

When I put them on their first hog (and I'll decide what there first hog is by carefully trying to choose the hog), I want them to be comfortable in the woods.  I start walking pups in the woods and pastures around the house at 3-4 months old.

I also take pups to the woods early so they learn to ride in and on top of the dog box, wear collars, and learn how to behave in the woods.

I do not support raising dogs in or around a bay pen and them turning them loose to an already bayed hog in the woods.  I don't think this teaches a dog how to hunt or trail.

My science can be found by looking at my boot tread.  No Six Sigma, ISO, or ASQ needed for my success.

[oconee]

It varies from pup to pup around here.    Some seem ready at around 8-10 months and some don't get mentally right until close to a yr old.    At any rate I usually show mine a penned pig at some point leading up to there first hunt but I do agree with Jon that I don't overdo the pen action.   When I deem one ready I simply throw him in the box like the others and from that point on he is part of the team.   If he/she performs up to standard then they continue to be part of the team and if not the don't.    I do pay close attention to the level of maturity before I put them in this position but thats pretty much how I do it.

[Bo Pugh]

I have a pen built behind my dog pens that's attached all the way to the back of them with a little holding pen off to the back I let a hog out and all my dogs stay in their Kennels and chains and get to bark even the littlest of the pups get to see the action from my puppy pen then when I open the door to the holding pen they get back quiet. I have a bay pen about 1 acre but I hardly ever use it. I use to send young dogs into bays and I think it makes them dependent on another dog to do all the work and they tend to want to become more of a "
Me too" type dog . I might send them in a time or two but I'm more focused on a dog taking a track and going hunting and than one going to another dog baying. If they won't go hunting i sure aint worrying if they will go to another dog baying or not. I know all dogs don't mature the same buty best dog now at 9 months old was going hunting by him self and leading races with grown dogs when he was 9/10 months old. So I think by 14 months old they should be able to put a hog in the books for you.

[l.h.cracker]

My first set of pups when I first started were ruined by me lol.I thought I was training hog dogs and I worked them every other day I put them on a shoat at 8 weeks and they were all over it I thought I had super stars from there I'd work them in a pen a couple times a week at least then I did mock hunts in the woods by dragging a hog and tieing to a tree and putting them on the trail but I would be pushing them they'd find the hog and catch it but never get very far from me I thought they were just immature and needed more work lol so I'd work them more.They had the best handle of any dogs you ever saw lol.At about a year I started hunting them and they didn't hunt for sh@t never ranged more than 100yds ever I waisted some more time on them before I realized that I was doing just that.

Since then I have learned a lot and the methods I use now are seeming to work much better. I don't worry to much about training a pup I will take them to the woods(where I know there aren't hogs) at a young age and just let them run and watch them not really push or even pay them any attention just observe. Then at about 6 months I'll put them in a pen with a beagle that bays really good just to see if they like a hog if so than that's it if not I wait a couple months and try again. At about a year when I feel that they are physically able to handle a hunt I'll bring them to the woods and let them hunt and only one pup with my grown dogs.Some mature faster than others but around a year I am looking for that dog to be independent and hunting not hanging around me or only following other dogs.I don't emphasise to much on handle but that's just me I want them to come if I call and don't ask much more than that.After a dog has proven itself as a hunter I will work on things like loading up and coming off a caught hog but I try not to interfere with the natural process of a dog learning to hunt anymore. I tend to wait a bit longer than some people simply because I walk hunt and if the dog can't physically handle a full hunt I don't want to have to drag or carry the dog back.

[Reuben]

They have to be mature enough to dodge a hog...puppy clumsiness must be outgrown or they could get hurt bad or  have a hamstring cut...

[Gibson]

Thanks for all the feed back guys. I ask because I normally  just run my 2 farm dogs that will find a pig if it's close but won't go hunt for 1 and I just recently got another puppy that I'd actually like to get out and hunt and I don't want to ruin him like I did the others just like L.H. said. This cur pup is 4 months old and has seen pigs when I load them from a trap to trailer and always barks his butt off but other than that I've only worked with him on basic stuff like riding in the ranger and so on.

Without having a solid lead dog to kind of teach him the ropes how can you work on getting a young dog to range out and hunt on his own?

[hoghunter71409]

I would let a hog loose in front of him (in woods, not open fields) and see if he wants to chase and use his nose.  At some point, the hog will get out of sight distance and he will have to trail the hog.  By this time he should be several hundred yards out.  Make him either find the hog or trail his way back.  Don't go and get him as soon as he stops.  Repeating this will lead to a better trailing dog and one day he will come across scent and he will start to trail knowing what is on the other end.

This is what I do to decide what hog will be the first for my pups.  Medium sized sows and small boars with no teeth are ideal.

[Black Streak]

When i work with a dog and its nose, i wont ever let the dog see the pig till it tracks to it with its nose.    I set the hunts up differently for tracking vs winding but never let the dog see the pig till it takes its nose to it from start to finish in either hunt.   Plus I always want a successful ending for the pup and don't want to teach it to give up and come back because the pig has fled 3 counties over. At first it's easy finds but soon turns into as close to an actual hunt as you can get and still be called a mock hunt.    Course my dogs are lurchers and long dogs.    No need in working their see and chase abilities.   
    I get pretty elaborate with my mock hunts and young pups when bringing out their scent hunting ablilities.   Very fun for me and educational for the pup.   I also feel like this brings to surface an independent and confident hunter instead of a me too dog.  Everybody has their own way, this is just an idea of what I do and why, when working on hunting by scent.

[Slim9797]

Black streak, I just got a new pup given to me and I got high hopes for him. I like how you explained what you do with your pups and I'm thinking I'm gonna have to implement that training style with this new little guy. Makes a lot of sense making them work a trail out to see a pig. Can I ask if you introduce them to a live hog first or do you only introduce them to the smell and make them work the scent to see their very first hog? And how young do you start this process?  Certain age or wait until they stop acting puppy?

[Slim9797]

Also how do you change it up between trailing and winding?

[ED BARNES]

I start them as soon as they know how to bay a little, and can keep up with the big dogs.  If they start babbling telling the other dogs to wait up then its back to the kennel for a bit. Usually around 9-12 months seems about the average for hunting.  Even then its not all night, usually just one good cast, maybe 2-3 miles, 3 - 4 hours.

[Black Streak]

I will have already introduced the pup to pigs.   When the pup is pig crazy I will then start having it use its nose to find what it wants without having seen it or even know that something is up.    For all the pup knows on the first couple mock hunts by smell, the pups being taken to the pasture on just a normal outing.   I take pups to the pasture a lot in order to let them get used to and learn to negotiate things such as cactus,  fences,  tall grass,  cliffs, thickets, uneven ground (creeks, armadillo holes, depressions etc)   hills are easy to see and go up but not easy to see at speed when they are heading to the edge.    Raise a running dog in this sort of environment and it will normal live a long happy life.   Don't raise it in this sort of environment and you will regret turning an older dog loose in it sometimes.     Broken necks, picking cactus out for hours, lost game etc will be on the list of common occurances.       So the pups spend lots of time in the woods exploring but when they get excited about hogs, I start making them hunt for them by smell.
      Winding I normally work on after they have the trailing down.    It helps prevent them from smelling the track and running around looking when first getting them trailing.   I'll tell you a little about how I get them trailing but you need to PM me for the entire progression steps for this.
   I always always always pay attention to wind direction.   It's just something I do that I incorporate into my style of hunting.   Makes sense to me in many ways but many people don't worry with it.    However you hunt is up to you but in mock hunting, you need to pay attention to wind direction and your approach to the different mock hunts, as it makes or breaks the lesson.    In scent trailing I will have dragged the pig the entire way with the wind at my back.    I don't drag in a straight line either.  I make the pup work to stay on track.      When i guide the pup to the scent trail, it will be from the side of the trail and have the dog cross over it around the start of the trail.    This way the dog can only smell the scent on the ground and not wind the pig from up wind as the pig isn't up wind, it's down wind from the dog.    To find the pig this way, you are forcing the dog to work the scent on the ground.      If your dog smells it and takes to running around looking and finds it just by stumbling over it, you need to make the scent drags a lot longer to force the dog to trail to find it.   Most pups this won't be a problem, older dogs maybe so.    After the pup finds the pig and gets to bay it, I let the pup know it's done a good job but do little interfering up to this point.   Don't show the pup the pig, just let it work the trail out.   If it takes setting around till your pup gets board and goes off exploring so be it.   Leave the big ego at home as you don't have a constant flow of puppies at home.   You have one or two pups to work with, in which to make the best dogs possible out of.    Breeders should or might want to take a different approach but most of us aren't breeders.    On the next time, make the scent drag a little farther and so on.
    Winding is easier and less work on you.    Simply drop decent size  pig off in a trap or holding pen in the woods and not on the road either.   Pig should be hidden from veiw.       Go back and get your dog and walk the pup down wind of the pig and accross the scent being carried by the breeze.    I'll normally start a couple hundred yards away to begin with.   Again just let the pup do its thing and don't pay the pup any attention as in talking to it or petting it etc.   When you see the pup catch the scent by perking up or throwing it's head up and stopping to look etc when you know you should be close to the scent stream, just be patient and let the pup try to work its way to the source.    As the pup goes to the source you might want to follow a little ways behind.   Same as in scent trailing in the begining.    This helps the pups that take it for a little ways and keep coming back time and time again without getting much farther ahead each time.   As you ease up as they are taking the scent trail or wind scent, your essentially encouraging the pup to continue on.    In the beginning this to me isn't a big deal but several hunts in, you shouldn't have to encourage the pup to continue its way to the source.       Don't do mock hunts in the same place twice either.   Don't want your pup running straight to the pig from memory.   You want it hunting the pig by smell.     
      Slim, if your imagination gets the better of you and you have more questions on top of this somewhat vague explanation from me, then we will have to talk off line so just PM me.     Stuff like this is a good start to training but ain't the end.   But you got to get to this point before you can take it any farther if wanting to take it further.   However this is normally good enough and a better start than a lot of dogs get or people have time for.    I like fiddling with pups though.

[Reuben]

lots of good posts here...Ed is right about the pups babbling when they get behind...

Black Streak good info right there...

just to reinforce some things already mentioned...I think the bay pen should be first to get the pups fired up and wanting hog...

then scent training is good like black streak mentioned...the wind is always a priority even when hunting...

teaching the pups to wind is fairly easy...stage the pig upwind in a hidden place and make sure to mark the spot where the wind is carrying the scent exactly across where you are driving the truck or 4 wheeler with the pups...drive very slowly and when the pups are winding let em out and hiss them on...you can help a little if needed but make them do the work...

3 or 4 times of each session and it is a done deal...if you want them to bark when you are rigging then when the pups are winding hiss them on...clap your hands or whatever it is you do to fire your pups up...once they bark turn em out...this way you can teach your dogs to rig while wind training...

teaching the pups to range...take em out to an open woods...make sure they have been taken straight from the pen to the dog box and to the site you will turn them out on...turn them out...and just let them roam...if they aren't rolling out just kick back and ignore them...hopefully they will get bored and go...if they roll out walk along and let them hunt...

teach them to come to you at home when they are pups...call as if you were calling them out of the woods...break them to gunfire as 6-8 week old pups...

the biggest thing with the bay pen is that you can burn the pups out...10 minutes every other week is good for 5 or 6 times...however...at some point they need to learn to respect a hog or they might not live past the first big boar in the woods..

[Bo Pugh]

Thanks for all the feed back guys. I ask because I normally  just run my 2 farm dogs that will find a pig if it's close but won't go hunt for 1 and I just recently got another puppy that I'd actually like to get out and hunt and I don't want to ruin him like I did the others just like L.H. said. This cur pup is 4 months old and has seen pigs when I load them from a trap to trailer and always barks his butt off but other than that I've only worked with him on basic stuff like riding in the ranger and so on.

Without having a solid lead dog to kind of teach him the ropes how can you work on getting a young dog to range out and hunt on his own?

If them other two dogs are standing around and not hunting don't let them young dogs stand around with them. don't turn them all loose and let them run back and forth all playing put them back in the box if they don't wanna hunt. I don't know how you hunt but I have a box on my four wheeler and their either gone hunting or in that box. And they will get use to when they get out of the box its time to hunt. Ride them in a box until you see some sign you know they can smell and put them on it and if they don't do anything back in the box they will get use to when they come out of the box its time to get gone. And  this is where genetics comes in also. I think a dog needs to be bred with a little want to, to get one that picks up natural

[decker]

ill tie a hog up, and turn 1 or 2 pups loose and just kinda let them run around until they stumble across it, if they get fired up and bay really good the first time. ill take them off of it right away. then go tie the pups up where they cant see the hog anymore. then I go drag that hog a couple hundred yards and tie him up again in the brush where they cant see him. I turn the pups loose they usually run right to where that hog was tied up if they want it. then just let them figure the rest out. if they figure it out ill tie one up every now and then in the brush. (once a month, once in two months). and turn them loose and let them hunt for it, I sit in the ranger and ignore them until they bay it up. when they are physically mature enough to go hunting they get hunted just like the rest of the dogs. but I do try to turn a pup out on fresh stuff before a grown dog just to let them try to do it on their own.

[Austesus]

So first off, sorry for reviving an old post! But, I didn't want to start a new topic when there are so many on puppy training and this one has some great information! Anyways, my question is this... when doing mock hunts does it make a big difference if you have a pig at the end or if you just use a cut out of hide? I did two mock hunts with my puppies when they were about 3-1/2 months old (same day) and I had a potbelly piglet in a dog kennel at the end. Since then I've made a pen at my house and I currently have a 30lb little boar/shoat in it. Since it is in the back of my fenced in yard, every time I let the puppies out of the kennel they get to go bay as much as they want through the pen. I know that they shouldn't get to bay all the time or they might get burn out and I'm currently in the process of making half of the pen covered so that the pig is only in the fence section when I WANT a dog to see him. As far as doing a mock hunt, the best place is my parents land which is 15 minutes away. But where I am at it is illegal to transport a live hog. I believe you can get a permit as long as you don't cross county lines but I'll have to look in to that more. So that poses the question, is it worth going through the trouble to have a caged/tied pig at the end of the trail? Or will a piece of hide suffice? I really want to focus on doing some drags and mock hunts so that the puppies don't get used to the pig just being there.