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Author Topic: Learning in The Womb...  (Read 2777 times)
Reuben
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« on: March 31, 2016, 02:42:51 pm »

LEARNING IN THE WOMB…
Life Before Birth: How Experience in the Womb
Can Affect Our Lives Forever
Arthur Janov, Ph.D.

the importance of healing prenatal imprints to more clearly see their
widespread cumulative and enduring effects. “It means that how the birth trauma is
played out, and reacted to, depends on earlier life circumstances—womb-life.”

“New Agey.” Now, there are literally hundreds of studies verifying this
proposition. There seems to be little question now that a pregnant
woman’s mood and physiology can produce long-term effects on the
offspring.

Epigenetics: The Inheritance of Acquired Characteristics
There is something we must add to the theoretical mix: epigenetics,
or said other way, how very early events in the womb and at birth can
alter the genetic unfolding. One genotype, a single genetic
predisposition, can give rise to many phenotypes depending on what
happens to those genes during gestation. So what we might imagine is
genetic, is genetic-plus what happens to us in the womb.
What Lamarck said was that individuals acquire
characteristics as a result of their environment, and now, these
characteristics can be passed on to the offspring.
Much of the research work in epigenetics has to do with diet; a
mother’s diet influences the offspring’s physiology. Epigenetics has to
do with how genes are regulated and influenced by the experience of
the baby. I believe it has more to do with the fetus who resides in the
womb; that his experience is influenced forevermore by the mother’s
diet but also by her moods, her anxiety and depression.
What we are discussing is how a mother’s interaction with her environment can
pass this on to her offspring. I think we need to understand that a
fetus in the womb is always trying to adapt to his environment and
that his genes will evolve and be expressed depending on that
adaptation.  For example, a mother who is anxious and who has
depleted much of her serotonin supplies cannot fulfill the young fetal
need for his own serotonin supplies (fully discussed in a moment). He
may well grow up deficient in inhibitory or repressive capacities and
be an anxiety/impulsive case forevermore; this can evolve into
attention deficit in his youth. There may be a continued inability to
have a cohesive cognitive ability. I think it is important that all this
occurs while the fetal brain is rapidly developing and needs proper
input to evolve normally.
________________________________________
Journal of Prenatal and Perinatal Psychology and Health
To get an idea of how early all this may begin, there is a study by
the University of Miami School of Medicine that states that: “A review
on (maternal) prenatal depression effects on the fetus and newborn
suggests that fetal activity is elevated, growth is delayed, low birth
weight common.” (Diego, et al., 2009, p. 70)
Newborns of a depressed mother show a profile that mimics the
mother’s prenatal state, including her physiologic state. This includes
higher stress hormone levels, lower levels of dopamine and serotonin,
and greater right frontal brain activity.
I have discussed the notion of the “critical window” in my other
works; it simply refers to a time in life when needs must be fulfilled,
and at no other time. We can hug a child all day at age ten but it will
not erase the lack of touch for the first 4 months of life which seriously
deregulated the whole system and left a legacy of internally imprinted
pain, a pain for which one must constantly take pain-killers. And it
remains a mystery to the loving adoptive parents who took the child
from an orphanage at the age of twelve weeks.
There is no way to make up for that kind of early loss except by
going back to relive the original trauma. There is no way to “make up
for” this deficit, as much as we might want to. It is set in altered
biologic set points.
National Academy of Sciences, Jan. 26, 2009) that demonstrates how
early stress impacts the immune system. Children who had an abusive
early life or had spent time in an orphanage showed a compromised
immune system. Even after they were taken out of an adverse
environment there was still this damage apparent. The scientists point
out that though the immune cells are ready at birth, how they develop
and become a dependable cohesive system depends on experience.
So much happens to us in the womb; so much as been ignored in
terms of their long-term effects that many diseases remain a mystery
because we are looking at the wrong place at the wrong time with the
wrong tools. What I am learning is that events in the womb explain so
much about later life. As already noted, if you bend an emerging twig
you are bound to get a distorted tree.
The question has always been, “How early is early?” This is where
epigenetics is relevant. A group at Washington State University (led by
________________________________________

Arthur Janov

Matthew Amway) found that gestational experience in animals that
sways the genetic unfolding can show effects for three generations.
They found that exposing pregnant adult rats with defective sperm
could engender many diseases including cancer in adult animals.



What conventional
therapy does with medication is use it to block and suppress feelings,
a very different approach.
Let us not abandon the past in an effort to modernize current
practice. Memory is medicine. Let us not eschew critical medicine in
order to cure our afflictions.
In sum, there is a qualitative difference between events that
________________________________________
Journal of Prenatal and Perinatal Psychology and Health
happened to us while being carried in mother’s womb, and those
events that happened after birth. It is a matter of irreversibility.  What
happens to us during gestation imprints a now-print memory that
endures as if that were our genetic legacy. The physiology and later
psychology revolve around this imprint.  There are little or no
compensating mechanisms that will right the ship. It adjusts to the
imbalance and goes on from there. If the imprint includes a general
passivity then the vital signs, temperature and blood pressure will
accommodate themselves to this new state.  After birth there is often
the possibility to correct the imbalance. So, accommodations, which the
body makes while we are in the womb, take on a genetic focus because
it seems to occur so early in life and remains such a force.
Thus far we have been talking to the non-verbal brain! This brain
is one that contains our history, our pain and our feelings, and
ultimately, the one that can finally liberate us. We need to speak that
language—one without words. We have to convince the brain that
spouts words and ideas that it is necessary to go back to early life and
relive—that lack of love—feelings that were too much to feel at the
time. We have to convince that thinking brain to let go, let the lower
brain systems emerge and breathe the air of freedom. It can be done.
A cure is possible.

I have been interested in this subject for a good while now and have wrote about it on here in the past. I copied some parts from a long article...
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liefalwepon
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« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2016, 01:10:45 am »

Makes you rethink how we care for newborns


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Reuben
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« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2016, 01:20:17 am »

I told a story on here several years ago about a 4 year old kid...my grandson comes running in the house and says caden is eating the red peppers outside from my birds eye plants...I did not believe it so I said show me...and he goes out and picks about ten peppers comes in and pops them in his mouth and starts chewing...no red face and no tears...he opened his mouth and showed me...his mouth was full of red pepper and seeds...
I couldn't wait to speak to his mom...she said he started eating peppers at under 2 years when he reached for a jalapeño from his high chair...turns out right when she got pregnant she started craving fresh jalapeño peppers and she ate quite a few...I just wish I could have videoed that scene...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
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Reuben
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« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2016, 01:25:00 am »

Yes indeed lief...I see this topic as taking it to the next level...I wish I knew  38 years ago what I know now...

But...I am Leading this topic towards the making of a hunting dog...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
Goose87
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« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2016, 09:48:24 am »

This is something that intrigues me, as of now I believe in it, I've always wondered how fish(salmon) can be hatched in a river, washed down to the ocean, spend their lives there and then know how to swim back to the very same waters where they were hatched and repeat the cycle and die, never learning from an older fish.
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liefalwepon
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« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2016, 02:01:36 pm »

So Rueben what ways would you apply this to hog doggin, besides hunting a pregnant female or letting her in a bay pen


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Goose87
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« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2016, 03:48:30 pm »

I'm not Rueben but I'll give my answer if it matters. What I get out of it to try and breed two animals that have really really proven themselves, and to give her some sort of stimulation while pregnant, wether it be hunting or in a pen, I'm going to work the next gyp I have bred in a baypen just to play around with this .
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Reuben
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« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2016, 04:11:56 pm »

I believe Goose said all I was going to say about it other than feed her some raw pork every now and then while pregnant...Also when the pups are 5 or 6 weeks old skip the morning feeding and throw a raw pig head out in the yard instead and turn the pups loose and they will devour the neck meat...just putting pig in their minds...just little things here and there in hopes of making better hog dogs...
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« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2016, 06:42:15 pm »

Brain development is something I did a lot of reading and am currently in the process of testing a few of the theory's I've read about now with a litter of pups I have on the ground.
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Reuben
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« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2016, 07:36:04 pm »

Yes...at 6 weeks I have the pups coming/running towards gunfire...I also test for natural winding from 6 to 8 weeks as well as finding...I use most any kind of meat chunks to do so...I am exposing the pups to different scenarios but am interested on selecting pups for hunting potential and natural ability...natural ability begets more natural ability in a breeding program...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
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« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2016, 08:43:31 pm »

That's the core of my breeding program, it's still fairly new but every dog I'm hunting I've started everyone and they were all naturals, yes they needed some correcting and pushing one way or another but for the most part, Mother Nature took over, after spending many years and countless hours trying to make apple juice using lemons I found that it's easier to make apple juice when you start with apples. I have to many domestic responsibilities to have to do mock hunt after mock hunt or day after day in a baypen.
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« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2016, 08:51:55 pm »

Another thing I'm watching is, I gave my friend a pair of pups I bred up, these are pretty tight bred within this family, he started his on nothing but hogs and i started mine on cows first, mine will bay the hide off a hog but his have more grit than mine, our future plans are to cross these gyps back into this line, I'm curious to see if the pups from his gyps are grittier than the pups off my gyp, being as each set of siblings were brought up in different settings, and were exposed to different animals at young ages, his would bay tighter than mine at a younger age but mine would circle bay way better at the same age his were baying, they're all litter mates but were exposed to different things growing up.
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liefalwepon
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« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2016, 06:24:52 pm »

Sounds good, I always give pups some pig parts to gnaw on, maybe I should give them the part I want them to bite, like the ears or head instead of feet, I'm going to wind up with a bunch of ankle biters lol


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« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2016, 08:22:15 pm »

If I trow a pig head in my yard my pup will just bark at it till I cut it up

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Reuben
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« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2018, 01:44:24 pm »

I wanted to bring this back to the top...as I read more about epigenetics this article makes a lot of sense as to what it is saying...this leads to more understanding as to how cells and genes and DNA work and not work...

none of the above is new...what is new is that we are taking it to a higher level of understanding....because of this new level of understanding...we can improve health with better treatments, better upbringing such as exposures to certain conditions, and staying clear of the wrong things to do....and creating better hunting dogs...

doing the right things at the right times with pups is key to having better dogs...

these things seem minimal but they are really big things in the development of the pup....

Example;

over a few days teach the pups to like wild pork for treats...the key is to do it when they are very hungry...hungry makes them really want it and it is logged in the memory...epigenetics tells us there will be changes made around the DNA and the cells will make adjustments...all positive...

if creating the scenario mentioned above when the pups have just had their fill of food in the morning (I always try to make these exposures/training in the early morning), they will not be interested or as interested in what I am trying to instill in the pups...

doing what I believe is the best way is the setup for the next training session...

once they like the pork I then scatter it in the yard to identify the individual pups styles of winding. hunting and finding...I look for those that require little to no guidance on account I am looking for natural ability...the pup that has his nose in the wind...this pup comes alive when the gat opens and rolls forth as I hiss the pups on with encouragement...the pup that finds the most pieces usually makes the better strike dog one day...

many of us have been practicing epigenetics while the science was in it's infancy and maybe before it had a name...



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« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2018, 05:19:29 pm »

I agree with all the things about puppies post birth that you gentlemen are discussing, but, getting back to the " in the womb" thing. I have always believed that positive stimulation of the mother during pregnancy, was a major factor in how the pups or child, or any live birth animal for that matter, would be (  Better, Faster, Stronger).  Key things most of our fraternity look for is more grit, more nose, more track speed, more endurance and better feet. What key stimulations to the gyp, during pregnancy, and timing of them, relate to changes in the key things we seek to improve upon?  I know it works, but how in these key things?
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Reuben
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« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2018, 08:52:55 pm »

Mike,

I do not know the answers to your questions...but I have copied some sections of a study to show it epigenetics work...there are many other ways besides what I am pasting below...

New research1 demonstrates males may experience epigenetic changes when exposed to cold temperatures prior to mating that are passed to their offspring, appearing as a greater percentage of brown fat distribution
Recent research using an animal model demonstrates males who spend time in lower temperatures prior to mating produce offspring with more active brown fat tissue.6 This quite literally means the environment has an impact on the father’s ability to pass epigenetic changes to his offspring.
Recent research using an animal model demonstrates males who spend time in lower temperatures prior to mating produce offspring with more active brown fat tissue.6 This quite literally means the environment has an impact on the father’s ability to pass epigenetic changes to his offspring.

In order to delve further into this correlation, researchers conducted studies on mice.7 Splitting the mice into two groups, one group was kept near 74 degrees Fahrenheit (F) while the other was kept at a cool 47 degrees F. The animals were then allowed to mate. An analysis of their offspring showed the environmental temperature of the male made a difference in the level of brown fat tissue in the babies, but the temperature of the females were kept in did not.
The offspring of the males kept in cooler conditions were better protected against excess weight gain and against metabolic disorders.8 This research confirms prior studies demonstrating environmental factors have the ability to modify epigenetic pattern of sperm.
However, this is the first time ambient temperature has demonstrated an ability to make genetic changes that are passed on to the offspring.

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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
Reuben
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« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2018, 10:08:06 pm »

one of the ways I understand epigenetics to work is as follows...

it is about perceptions...positives perceptions and negative perceptions and can be created in different environments...

Like I mentioned in an earlier post...I can feed the pups first thing in the morning and right after I can feed them some wild pork as treats and they might not be interested because they are not hungry...that is a negative perception of what I want to create...then right after I grab a pork skin and drag it around to entice the pups to give chase and catch...I can not get the best out of these pups on account they aren't hungry and they are so full they don't want to give chase...all negative perceptions on account I created those negative environments...

Over the years I have used the power of hunger to my advantage for many different scenarios...

Now I will do it in a different environment...The pups are very hungry early in the morning...I have given these pups pork treats through the kennel fence and they now love the taste of pork because hunger intensifies their want to eat...a couple days later I scatter the pieces of pork in the yard and they want to get to them because they know they taste good...and they hunt hard for the treats...they are keenly interested and will hunt hard for them...their cells and brain were craving these treats...I created the environment and their biological being created the want to environment...

The next morning I show up with a nice pork skin drag and run it across their noses at the kennel fence and then I open the gate and they are giving hard chase and then I make sure they win by letting them catch and they set down anchoring the pig hide...

just doing the right things at the right time...and creating the right environment...

I create the right environment for the pups...but the pups biological environment is right for the training exercises created by their hunger...

the genes and DNA we inherit and the environment tweaks the changes whether it can be passed on to the offspring or not...in some cases yes and others not...

Quite a bit of what I have written is proven fact and the rest is my personal theories at work...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
Reuben
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« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2018, 10:38:55 pm »

a few more examples of positive and negative environments of many, many more...

we experience love, security and happiness...our brains and cells react and many positive ways...the life blood travels through all the vital organs and cells and many and many positive hormones are released as they are carried by the blood through all the cells in the body...we tend to be healthy with the positive thoughts (positive perceptions) which were created by the biological and external environments...

We experience fear because we broke down in a bad neighborhood and we must now walk towards safety in the dark...now we experience fear and anxiety (negative perception but reality), our blood flow is now restricted to our major organs which should have priority...but in this case the blood flow was restricted to the organs because the brain decide it is now prepping for fight or flight...it is now increasing the blood flow to the extremities such as legs and arms...

so whether human child or animal in gestation...if in a negative environment...then what are the extent of repercussions?

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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2018, 07:15:46 am »

Man, this is good stuff...Maybe we should look to the wild dogs (wolves, coyotes, foxes, dingoes, ect.) of this world for some of these answers.
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