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Author Topic: Learning in The Womb...  (Read 2599 times)
Reuben
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« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2018, 11:16:27 am »

Man, this is good stuff...Maybe we should look to the wild dogs (wolves, coyotes, foxes, dingoes, ect.) of this world for some of these answers.

That is the next subject I will and below when I have time...dingoes weren’t in the plan but it applies...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
t-dog
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« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2018, 06:31:47 pm »

I myself agree that there are certain characteristics in animals and people that are created in the womb. I am a firm believer in a balanced digestive system. Your digestive system creates and works in conjunction with same chemicals your brain makes. If one is off the other more times than not, the other is too. So, if you get a female that is pretty  sound and stable and all of a sudden she gets sick or she has to deal with something very traumatic for a long period of time during the gestation,  it's very likely that the offspring will show it at some point. It may be that they are susceptible to disease or that they have a lot of anxiety or can't deal with pressure, etc. etc. If a hot acclimated female is taken to a cold climate and has offspring, it usually isn't long before the offspring start getting longer haired. Those are examples of epigenetics to me and what I believe to be true. I don't know if I agree with your theory of the pork though Rueben. To me that is a learned  characteristic. Brains, speed, grit, build,  those are all inherited genes. They are not influenced by gestational occurrences, in my opinion. A family of catch dogs that naturally go to the ear, or family of currs that hunt deep or have a ton of bottom, these to are inherited and become more potent through selective breeding. I don't think that the pups are gonna  be faster if I feed the mother Cheetah meat while she's pregnant or that they'll be coon crazy when they open their eyes because she was fed a coon diet. Those things are from selective breeding. I'm not the smartest marble in the  bag but that's what I believe.
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Judge peel
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« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2018, 06:42:41 pm »

I don’t buy into any of that stuff. I feel like a good diet and strong body with a sound emotional system. The rest is preset and up to the amount of work put into the raising of the animal or child.


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Reuben
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« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2018, 08:50:24 pm »

Tdog...
You are right about genetics...I can’t expect to feed a wiener dog Cheetah meat and train it to chase a mechanical rabbit and expect it to keep up with the greyhounds...ever

There is no doubt in my mind that proper selection of pups from within a bloodline of well bred dogs is the way to go...proper socialization and exposure to different conditions will make those pups better dogs...sometimes it is epigenetics or just plain training or a combination of both...

There is genetics...epigenetics and training...with common sense and know how along with some reading we can put it to work in our favor...I believed in it before I knew the term  “epigenetics”...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
t-dog
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« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2018, 12:23:50 pm »

I agree with that Reuben. Judge, I believe in it for my own reasons. To me one form or example is this, a woman has a couple of kids. They are healthy and functional at a high level. She has another child by the same father as the first two, only  this time she's strung out on drugs. This child is  born maybe favoring the older two or maybe with deformities. Maybe the third one has a learning disability or a really poor immune system. These weren't inherited traits. They were a product of what happened during gestation. Altered genes due to outside influence. I have seen horses that were closely related and some stayed down south and a couple went up north. When off spring from the northern horses came back, they had twice as much hair and longer hair all because of the alterations the climate difference created. Typically they were short tight haired animals. Just my opinion.
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Judge peel
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« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2018, 01:31:15 pm »

I have first hand knowledge of drug baby. Both my sisters where heroine baby’s there are perfectly normal. My cuzin dad was hit by agent orange she was born with out fore arms and her sister died. But any way out side of a drug induced change or a extreme weather conditions even then could take generations to change. If you read your check book to your unborn child it’s no more likely to be a banker then any one else. It’s prove that kids that do above average at 3 to 5 are average at 10 to 12. It’s just wishful thinking to me. If my son drinks grape koolaide and listens to rap will his skin get darker lol


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bigo
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« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2018, 01:31:41 pm »

What do reckless choices, stressful situations, poor nutrition and environment have to do with learning in the womb? That is damage in the womb and I know that can happen. Proper care, handling and good genetics determine what you end up with not what the mother smells or eats while she is pregnant, as long as it is nutritious.
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Judge peel
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« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2018, 02:05:38 pm »

Pretty much saying the same thing


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t-dog
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« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2018, 02:27:42 pm »

I don't think it's actual "learning in the womb"  as it genes being altered. I myself don't believe anything "learns" in the womb. Maybe my understanding of epigenetics is wrong, I've been wrong once before.
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Judge peel
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« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2018, 03:28:54 pm »

Haven’t we all bubba


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TheRednose
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« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2018, 03:55:51 pm »

I don't think it's actual "learning in the womb"  as it genes being altered. I myself don't believe anything "learns" in the womb. Maybe my understanding of epigenetics is wrong, I've been wrong once before.

But only once! hahahahaha
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Reuben
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« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2018, 05:41:26 pm »

I don't think it's actual "learning in the womb"  as it genes being altered. I myself don't believe anything "learns" in the womb. Maybe my understanding of epigenetics is wrong, I've been wrong once before.

Ok T-dog....you got me on that one...you are 100 percent right...it isn’t learning in the womb...it is changes in living cells or living components  that adapt to certain environments and conditions...

There is nothing New whatsoever...all this has been going on all along as part of nature...the only thing different is that we are reaching a higher level of understanding and as a result we now have many scientists studying and performing experiments learning more about how this works...hunting dogs could reach a higher potential as hunting dogs
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
Judge peel
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« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2018, 06:48:48 pm »

If they spent all the time effort and money wasted on those silly theory’s and put in to teen pregnancy prevention and after school programs we might actually gain some of our intelligence back 


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Goose87
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« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2018, 07:47:18 pm »

Reuben no disrespect but I still think your trying to convince yourself your on a mountain when in reality your just on a mole hill when it comes to this whole Epigenetics subject, yes I believe it is real and as T dog mentioned easy examples to use are livestock in various regions being moved to a different region, but in the grand scheme of things exactly how does this help us improve our breeding programs, most of the things you’ve mentioned in this post are helpful but aren’t any improvements on what Mother Nature has already shown us and after all she is the ultimate breeder and scientist and doesn’t make mistakes, the pork in the yard method and technique doesn’t have anything to do with improving on genetics , that is nothing more than conditioning, you could do the same thing with deer meat, ribeyes, boiled eggs, dog treats etc. and still get the same results, I’m fortunate enough to live where I do and have understanding neighbors and am able to let my pups run loose and after a few weeks they learn when they see me coming on my golf cart to immediately run to the feed shed door and start scratching, that has nothing to do with their cells or genes “waking up” or becoming active, they’ve figured out that’s where the food is, as they get older they figure out that there’s game to run in the woods and natural instincts take over, I’ll give an example, the first F1 cross I made with the family of running walkers I chose and my cur stock, two ran loose most of their life until they were becoming a nuisance and safety concern, they could run a red fox and coyote like they were tied to him by a year old, those two were natural game getters and took right to real hunting like a baby duck does to water, and after the switch to hogs I can count on one hand how many times I’ve had them trash on off game, their full sister was left in a big pen behind my parents house and was never allowed to run like the other two and now at a little over 3 years old that one female is better than the two that had all the experience and exposure that they could get and is now my buddy’s go to dog on his yard, there are several things that can be done post partem to enhance what is already there genetically but a man has to truly know his family of dogs to notice a difference, most of the things and methods you’ve mentioned in this post and others have already been done and tried, breeding dogs isn’t anything new, the old school APBT guys tried just about everything a man could dream up to “improve” on what they had in a bitches belly and after all the trials and very little triumphs they realized that there’s not much improving on sound genetics and a balanced diet, there are some things that can done be as far as a pre natal diet is concerned other than making sure the females increasing dietary needs are met supplementing her with high amounts of DHA, which is omega-3 oils has been proven to improve cognitive development and function later on in life, it has also been written that there isn’t a neurological connection between a mother and fetus, if that were the case every physical pain the mother felt the fetus would also feel, their only connection is the placenta and what enters into the fetus comes through the blood after the mothers body has extracted what it needs to maintain itself, I have never read anywhere or seen any examples of “learning in the womb”, if that were the case we would already have the ultimate beings whatever it maybe, canine or human, at the end of day all that matters is that we do right by the dogs and their welfare, it doesn’t matter one bit what I do on my yard or what you do on your yard, as long as positivity and enjoyment comes from it, I respect your thinking and input that you contribute to the dog world even if I don’t agree on everything you mention and will be the first to admit that I’m not scared of innovation or change as long as it is for the better and maintain an open mind about life and my opinions may change or shuttle a little bit as life goes on and I’m able to broaden my knowledge on things, glad that there is something to talk about on here for the time being...
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Reuben
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« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2018, 10:06:38 pm »

Thanks for your input Goose...but I have to strongly disagree with you on some of the epigenetics as how you and others see it...you are generalizing and that makes me believe you are wrong...it is not learning in the womb...sometimes it is conditioning due to environmental changes...the changes might not be great but they can be there...I do not thing it matters as much as to what it is...we can call it whatever or choose not to believe and we can still have great dogs when the genetics is right and with proper socialization to go along with it

Yes...I use wild pork now and then and beef liver or even churches fried chicken at times or whatever is handy...I am not creating these training exercises to train pups or even for genetic manipulation even though it is a good training exercise for them...I am looking for natural ability...such as a pup hunting into the wind and how he drifts in his or her search for the meat, I am looking for locating ability and style by who finds the most amongst other things...I call it testing the pups and I do this for baying style and for free casting in the woods as pups...we can train a pup to do these things to a certain extent...and we can then expect to have more of the same in future breedings...or...we can test those pups and select those that are born with that natural instinct and when they prove themselves at a later time in the woods then it is a go for future breedings...and they will produce themselves more often than not...natural ability begets more natural ability...if we all followed this thought process we wouldn’t be dealing with so many culls...epigenetics will be one more tool to add to our bag of training tools...in reality many of us already do this without realizing it...

I can defend most of what I say but most of the time I choose not to do so to prevent from having to go into so much detail ...after all when we present our opinions we believe them to be right...but I can be made to change my mind quickly when I clearly see that I am wrong...

We can all play the part of lawyers and poke holes in what someone says such as...but ole Fido didn’t pass the puppy testing but he is as good as the siblings that tested best now that he turned 2 years of age he is as good as the best...yep...that will happen but why breed Fido when you can breed the one who did it right from the beginning...

I too have given away one of my ten week old pups to my brother and that pup had tested well...long story short he didn’t do anything with him and so he gave him back to me at over two years old or older...and the first time I took him out he shined as good  as my better dogs...by the third hunt there was no doubt about his consistency...but realistically speaking how often will we see a dog that can be chained all it’s life and then make that type of hunting dog?

Yes...we can call it training, exposing or conditioning...but quite a bit of the success we get from a pup is in how we train, how long we train and when to get the best out of our pups...and we all know it is easier with the right pups...

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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
Reuben
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« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2018, 05:33:50 am »



Yes...I use wild pork now and then and beef liver or even churches fried chicken at times or whatever is handy...


I do put importance and priority in feeding the pups a hog head at the minimum once but try for two or 3 times different times...and dragging a piece of pig hide once or twice so I can get them grab it and not just nip at it....whether it is epigenetics, conditioning or exposing...it doesn't matter...what matters is the end result...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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