Proven CD Inbreeding, wanting opinions

[Myles Man]

Lola turns 2 yrs in July, I'm going to breed her around November when her cycle hits. She's from the 1st litter Bob had with GeorgexRose

Suggestions on me breeding her to George (her dad) or Choco (her brother)?

 I'm wanting to keep the ped good and tight, but would that make it too tight? I'm planning on outcrossing within a year or two.

 I've had a few guys say ChocoxLola would keep a tight Frisco ped. Since George is almost 10yrs old, it would be a great choice as well to keep his battlecross ped tight.

All other studs I've tried keeping in touch with are not looking to promising for a planned successful breeding. Since I have a access to these studs and  I trust Bob 100% with my girl, I'm thinking it's meant to be. Choco and Lola are both around 58 pounds, George may be closer to 70, as far as we can tell there's no genetic defects and all other dogs seem as healthy as can be.

Lola




George


Choco


Choco, George, and one of Georges boys from a non registered litter

[WayOutWest]

If I have that choice I go back to dad. The brother could be an option down the road but Dad is now or never.

[parker49]

i sure like the looks  of  George ....  George looks just like my booger  dog  I had ....  that look George has  is my favorite look for a cd....

[lettmroll]

I'd go with the dad.

[TheRednose]

If I have that choice I go back to dad. The brother could be an option down the road but Dad is now or never.

Yup agree, I've always like father/daughter or mother/son better than full brother/sister. I would even consider the half brother depending on how good of a dog he is and how good his other half was. Then if any turn out the way you want from that litter you could take one of them back to Lola's full brother to tighten back up. Just an idea for ya.

[WayOutWest]

I will clarify why I said what I said. I would only reserve the brother/sister in my program for when I need to kick this down the road to keep the line going. If I have any other options for a line breeding I myself go that way. Others may disagree and I will not argue that it can work, it's just riskier than father/daughter in my book. That being said with the bro/sis being an outcross it is not as risky as 2 tight linebred siblings being bred. As far as tightening up on Frisco, you can do what you want but I am one of the only people you will talk to who's had there hands on Frisco and I wouldn't want the traits that I saw out of that dog. He was at my place for a week when he was about 8 months old and when we turned him out in the yard he was as skittish as a wild deer. He had to be cornered and grabbed as he ran by. Frisco had a beast for a father and I know a fellow who just got out of the dogs after running into him. When I saw how much Frisco was being bred after going to the east coast I was shocked. I'm absolutely not saying there weren't good dogs off Frisco but I know what I saw with my own eyes.

[hoghunter71409]

I'm wanting to keep the ped good and tight, but would that make it too tight? I'm planning on outcrossing within a year or two.

To answer your question I would go with dad over brother and it is not to tight once.

Why stay so tight to plan an outcross so soon?  I understand the dad is old and that would be a good reason to stay with him.  If the brother is as good, have you considered out cross now and back to brother in a year or two?  Ive never understood breeding so tight to plan an out cross.  seen better long term results with loser line breeding within the same family.  JMO

[Myles Man]

i sure like the looks  of  George ....  George looks just like my booger  dog  I had ....  that look George has  is my favorite look for a cd....

I agree, he's a good dog, kinda calm also, not psycho crazy like Lolas mom was; which is where most of the frisco comes from

[Myles Man]

I'm wanting to keep the ped good and tight, but would that make it too tight? I'm planning on outcrossing within a year or two.

To answer your question I would go with dad over brother and it is not to tight once.

Why stay so tight to plan an outcross so soon?  I understand the dad is old and that would be a good reason to stay with him.  If the brother is as good, have you considered out cross now and back to brother in a year or two?  Ive never understood breeding so tight to plan an out cross.  seen better long term results with loser line breeding within the same family.  JMO

No reason to plan an outcross so early,, I'm doing my homework to line/inbreed and I figured I'd start now...

I've produced 2 AB litters in 10 yrs, I'm not as big on breeding as I wished I could be, this is my 1st step to keep a good thing going....

[Myles Man]

Good input, I appreciate the feedback,

[parker49]

the question's is ? what or you wanting out of the breeding ? cross with influence of both sides or another clone of one of the dogs your breeding ? (breed to achieve) ....   but I sure do like George's looks ...

[ArtHenrey]

Simple, breed her to George and sign me up for a pup

[redriverslim]

What are the advantages of keeping a tight Frisco ped?  If the sire is a good catch dog with all the traits you desire in a catchdog, then breed back to him.  Other than that, there is no reason or advantage to keep a tight Frisco ped.  Having a Frisco ped doesn't help the dog catch hogs.  It's the traits that breed true in bulldogs . . . not pedigrees.  Examples: catch and hold / gameness / no quit attitude / stable temperament w/ other dogs / wind, stamina.  These traits are not unique to Frisco bred dogs.  These are traits that are just common in any functional working bulldog. 

It's not like your trying to preserve something unique or rare by having a tight Frisco dog.  Garner has sold thousands of tight Frisco pups that's way tighter than what you have.  You can probably go on his website and see 4 or 5 litters right now that's the tightest Frisco blood in the world.  I know at least 10 dudes that have direct grandsons of Frisco right now.  There are probably a thousand super tight up close Frisco dogs walking around right now.  But there again, no advantage to that when it comes to hog hunting.  Frisco dogs are known for biting hard and being powerhouse type bulldogs.  But there is nothing unique or special about having Frisco bred catch dogs.

Linebreeding / Inbreeding only offers advantages when you're trying to concentrate some set of specialized traits.  If you're just wanting to make some catch dogs, there is no more upside to having Frisco breeding than there is down side.  It might just be that the individual dogs you are thinking about just happen to be good catchdogs that have some Frisco blood by chance.  But Frisco in their pedigree doesn't necessarily make them good catch dogs, nor does it prevent them from being good catchdogs. 

If George is a good catchdog and you like him, then I would go with him.  But I would never breed brother sister.  Inbreeding brings out the bad traits just as much as the good traits.  If old George is everything you want in a catchdog, and your bitch has a lot of George's traits, then I would breed her back to George and hope you get a litter of little Georges.  I don't know the ped on your dogs, but I would bet $$$ that Frisco is so far back in the ancestry that it has a very small impact on the overall genetic make-up of your pups.  At the end of the day, Frisco is just another bulldog with name recognition.  But if Frisco is in your dog's 4th or 5th generation, and only appears in the ped once or twice . . . you're really not breeding Frisco dogs.

[WayOutWest]

Slim, you hit the nail square on the head. In breeding catchdogs I believe it is way more important to breed for the traits you need than a pretty pedigree. With catchdogs you can see most of the traits you need. And going too tight you can lose things you can't see like immune system and brittle teeth. Good post.

[Myles Man]

Simple, breed her to George and sign me up for a pup

Yes sir, big 10-4

[Myles Man]

What are the advantages of keeping a tight Frisco ped?  If the sire is a good catch dog with all the traits you desire in a catchdog, then breed back to him.  Other than that, there is no reason or advantage to keep a tight Frisco ped.  Having a Frisco ped doesn't help the dog catch hogs.  It's the traits that breed true in bulldogs . . . not pedigrees.  Examples: catch and hold / gameness / no quit attitude / stable temperament w/ other dogs / wind, stamina.  These traits are not unique to Frisco bred dogs.  These are traits that are just common in any functional working bulldog. 

It's not like your trying to preserve something unique or rare by having a tight Frisco dog.  Garner has sold thousands of tight Frisco pups that's way tighter than what you have.  You can probably go on his website and see 4 or 5 litters right now that's the tightest Frisco blood in the world.  I know at least 10 dudes that have direct grandsons of Frisco right now.  There are probably a thousand super tight up close Frisco dogs walking around right now.  But there again, no advantage to that when it comes to hog hunting.  Frisco dogs are known for biting hard and being powerhouse type bulldogs.  But there is nothing unique or special about having Frisco bred catch dogs.

Linebreeding / Inbreeding only offers advantages when you're trying to concentrate some set of specialized traits.  If you're just wanting to make some catch dogs, there is no more upside to having Frisco breeding than there is down side.  It might just be that the individual dogs you are thinking about just happen to be good catchdogs that have some Frisco blood by chance.  But Frisco in their pedigree doesn't necessarily make them good catch dogs, nor does it prevent them from being good catchdogs. 

If George is a good catchdog and you like him, then I would go with him.  But I would never breed brother sister.  Inbreeding brings out the bad traits just as much as the good traits.  If old George is everything you want in a catchdog, and your bitch has a lot of George's traits, then I would breed her back to George and hope you get a litter of little Georges.  I don't know the ped on your dogs, but I would bet $$$ that Frisco is so far back in the ancestry that it has a very small impact on the overall genetic make-up of your pups.  At the end of the day, Frisco is just another bulldog with name recognition.  But if Frisco is in your dog's 4th or 5th generation, and only appears in the ped once or twice . . . you're really not breeding Frisco dogs.

Great way to look at it, good advice slim, George is everything I would expect in a well mannered pit, mainly what care about is great handle and no regrip, he's as good as it gets in my opinion,

Lolas ped analysis says she 30% frisco, which don't make a major difference to me, I'm not a ped head; I just want to keep the best of the best going in my neck of the woods, hopefully get a litter or 2 in the process and bless folks who need dependable CD's, the ped from ADBA is icing on the cake, which to me is why I'm looking for advice,,,,

So far I'm thinking I can breed to George and wait to see the turnout.

[parker49]

cross George twice  on that gyp cross the pups that look like George ....

[bob]

George is my cd , he is a special animal , he old now and is pretty much retired but has done a great.job for me and has sure earned my respect , he's followed miles.behind a mule with me and Craig Loftin  , and the last few years on atvs , he's caught some monsters in his time , he's actually  garners crocodile - Morgan breeding , in a discussion I had in the past on here , I was told that the old timers called him a battle type cross , he's very smart , learnt how to avoid damage , a jaw like a alligator,  and we'll mannered  , myles thanks for the kind words ,.bring her over any time

[TheRednose]

Hey Bob fine looking catchdogs. The son of George on the right looks like his twin, sure is a fine looking dog.

[bob]

Thank you ,.these dogs are primarily  black nose dogs , choco had a red  nose  , the only one and very chocolate  color , I  pic him as my litter pic and still very happy  , caught with him this winter on most.every hunt , he's gonna do great