Nose

[TheRednose]

This is a topic I wanted to discuss for a while but have been too lazy to start. Noses are a funny thing I have kind of learned. It's not a black and white subject. I have discussed this topic with many young and old timers that breed and run dogs that hunt all types of game. I see people throwing around terms like hot, medium, and cold nose all the time. Not just on this site but all kinds of places. I have seen many arguments start from this subject and I think it's all in what the terms mean to you.

Quick disclamier this is not a slight on or at any group of hunters or dogs.

First of all I think where and what you hunt have a big influence on how your interpret the terms hot, medium, and cold nose. A big game dry ground hunter out west considers cold, medium, and hot are very different from what a southern hog hunter considers them. I think this happens because different conditions and different game call for different traits in dogs. Lets look at two situations:
1. A bobcat hunter in AZ hunting dry bare ground where there are only a bobcat or two for every square mile or two and who puts off the least scent of all game animals, jumps trees and does all kinds of other clever things, plus there is very little brush and almost no humidity.
 
2. A southern hog hunter who is hunting the stinkiest animal in the woods, in moist conditions in thick or semi thick brush who doesn't climb trees but can be super fast and are smart in their own ways, and where there are at least fair numbers of them.

Those hunters usually and keep in mind I know their are always exceptions but usually those two hunters will want two totally different types of dogs to hunt not to mention hunting style to maximize the amount of their chosen game they can catch. I am speaking in generalizations but if I were in situation one I would want a track minded dog that trees, and the older the track it could start the better. In situation two I would want a fast, silent hot nosed dog that winds well and would not waste tons of time on trying to warm up old tracks. Example; if I were to bring out one of my buddies super cold southwest dry ground hounds to south Texas to hunt hogs next to some of your guy's hot nosed bmc's and cat's I would not have a good time. Because while my dog is wasting time trying to grub old tracks and running a super old track those curs would be catching hogs. T Bob touched on it on another thread, the curs brains are wired differently than the hounds brains and that is why they do things in such different ways.

In my opinion saying a dog has a hot nose does not mean he has a weak nose necessarily, to me the terms hot, medium and cold does have some to do with how strong their noses are but to me it means more on what tracks and scents he chooses to run and how he uses his nose more than the strength of it. So with all this being said how I use these terms and say somebody like Reuben uses and looks at these terms are totally different.
 
These are just my opinions that I have formed over the last couple of years of traveling around and hunting all kinds of game in all kinds of places. I would love to hear other opinions because I know that they vary so greatly on this.

[Judge peel]

I think your dead on in my opinion


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[bigo]

After much study on this subject, this is what I have concluded. Tracks laid on dry ground and the ground remains dry, with no fluctuations in humidity, will last a long time. Tracks laid down in damp situations like dew in the mornings and as the dew evaporates, so does the sent. The Lee brothers of Arizona, some of the greatest dry ground lion hunters of all time, went to Florida to hunt lions and had a lot of problems with the damp to dry situation. They were some of the best cold nosed hounds on dry ground.
    I love cold nosed dogs, if they are great track dogs. The reason most people that hunt hogs are against cold nosed dogs, is that they see these dogs that straddle a track and run it all day in the shade of a tree. While these dogs may be cold nosed, they are sorry track dogs. A good cold nosed track dog will move a cold track like most dogs move a good track. I have seen cur dogs take tracks that hounds could not open on are line out and run it like they were looking at it. That is the kind of cold nosed track dog I like. The only problem is, they will get out of pocket in a hurry.

[gary fuller]

good stuff fellas. personally i indentify hot with  new/very recent and cold with old.

[Pwilson_10]

I think a cold track is a track that is old that a dog can't move worth a crap and a hot track is one that is  very easy to run I don't think terrain has much to do with it if it's old it's old if it's new it's new now if a hog is going throw a plowed field it's harder to run cuz there's not much for a hogs scent to stick to  and if it is windy I think sent gets blown away and if it is wet then more then not the hog is wet so there is sent dropping every we're but hell idk I go hunting and hope for the best


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[Reuben]

I think that a dog can have a cold or hot nose but it is genetics that makes a dog wind long range...grubs out cold tracks etc...etc...

having said that a handler can condition the dogs to take hotter tracks or he can condition the dogs to work out tracks to their fullest potential...so it is genetics first and conditioning/training/exposing them second...

The reason why I like the colder nosed curs are because they are not totally focused on smelling every track...they will wind a long ways and go to the hog or they can take the track, cut and slash and find the exit tracks pretty quick instead of working the feeder tracks step for step...this type of cur dog will put you on hogs pretty quick because they have the ability to know where to find game...they have that all around nose and mentality which is bred in to the good ones...the curs with the colder noses have the same type of genetics but can smell those colder tracks and work them out rather quickly...

like bigo said...these dogs can get out of pocket pretty quick...it can be nerve racking at times...I am thinking the garmin alpha is fixing to make it more better...

[T-Bob Parker]

After much study on this subject, this is what I have concluded. Tracks laid on dry ground and the ground remains dry, with no fluctuations in humidity, will last a long time. Tracks laid down in damp situations like dew in the mornings and as the dew evaporates, so does the sent. The Lee brothers of Arizona, some of the greatest dry ground lion hunters of all time, went to Florida to hunt lions and had a lot of problems with the damp to dry situation. They were some of the best cold nosed hounds on dry ground.
    I love cold nosed dogs, if they are great track dogs. The reason most people that hunt hogs are against cold nosed dogs, is that they see these dogs that straddle a track and run it all day in the shade of a tree. While these dogs may be cold nosed, they are sorry track dogs. A good cold nosed track dog will move a cold track like most dogs move a good track. I have seen cur dogs take tracks that hounds could not open on are line out and run it like they were looking at it. That is the kind of cold nosed track dog I like. The only problem is, they will get out of pocket in a hurry.

Mr Owens just more clearly stated exactly what I was referring to in the other thread with what I originally saw in the first "family bred" cur I was gifted. I still don't have the wisdom to spell it out like he did, but reading his explanation sums up my experience.

    When I came to decision to finally part ways with that hound I was referring to, I had to consider that I had seen that dog put cur after cur after cur on the right track and usually about the time he would open, it was finally hot enough for the junk I was hauling at the time to take. I didn't understand how dozens of curs I had tried wouldn't or flat out Couldn't even smell the sign I was casting him from, but all of the sudden, I had one who not only could smell it, but within a step or two knew which direction it should go and was at a dead sprint to get there. That bitch had what BigO was describing.
  I think when some dogs use "intelligence" or "instinct" maybe a little more than nose, it can make them do funny things. I've got a 2 year old daughter to her and a 18 month old half brother to that first one that will cast like a wet dream when I take them hunting, but oddly I have taken them to work or just to play around and stretch their legs where I know there's no hogs and they wont hardly leave my sight at all. So are they reading me or are they processing scent on the way to where ive taken them and they've noticed that theres no reason to get worked up?  I know I'm being long winded but all I'm getting at is that I believe that with dogs like them, they DO NOT have the level of "nose" a hound does, but if they smell the slightest of hog scent all they know is they are supposed to pick the hottest direction and fly until they warm it up?  

One last thing I have noticed is that a lot of hounds that I have seen and some curs as well who track step for step and have excellent "line control" often you can tell when they bump into the hog itself by the way they sound off with a surprised bawl or chop! Even open mouthed dogs, you can tell the difference and it seems they will bump right into the hog and be surprised by it for at least a second like "HOLY SMOKES!!!!"  I seen with a lot of the curs that I look up to however, they tend to move that track judging distance and will often give out the first few barks before they actually look at the hog like they're saying "FOUND YOUUUU"

[Reuben]

Tbob...one of the best I ever owned started as a shining star at a young age...and at about 6 or 7 years would make a round in 5 minutes and if he camE back you could bet no hogs in the area...and when he left out you could bet he was fixing to bay one...all the other dogs could be busy and he was just walking along...but almost 100 percent of the time he found the hog first...he did have the best nose in the pack as well.

 

[hyan]

So what would be the difference in hunt and nose? Meaning if a dog has hunt and just rolls out looking for a track as compared to a dog rolling out smelling for a track that woupd pretty much be the same right?or is it a dog smell a 2 day old watering hole n finds a sent n rolls on it or a dog that goes to the watering hole dosnt smell anuthing n juat goes on looking till it does thats the best way I know how to word i hope my question makes sense

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[TheRednose]

So what would be the difference in hunt and nose? Meaning if a dog has hunt and just rolls out looking for a track as compared to a dog rolling out smelling for a track that woupd pretty much be the same right?or is it a dog smell a 2 day old watering hole n finds a sent n rolls on it or a dog that goes to the watering hole dosnt smell anuthing n juat goes on looking till it does thats the best way I know how to word i hope my question makes sense

Hey Kai let me answer your question in the way I think, I'm sure other people will have other outlooks on it. So hunt is what makes em look, nose is to me is actually to combination of two things; their nose and brain. Which depending on how they are wired will determine what type of dog he is. Like a hot nosed winding type dog or a cold nosed track grubbing type dog.

So for your example of a two day old track at a watering hole, one dog smells and starts grubbing and works it out, and the other dog doesn't smell it. Yes the first would be colder nosed than the second but something I was trying to explain is the what these terms mean to me so maybe that second dog does smell it just as well as the first dog but just makes the decision to keep looking for a better track. Now that dog has a great nose and maybe even as strong of nose as the cold nosed dog and would prob be the type of dog the can "wind long range" but to me is still a hot nosed dog. To me being hot nosed and cold nosed doesn't always mean the strength of nose but a lot of times it means more what type of scent and track the dog decides to run.

[hyan]

So what would be the difference in hunt and nose? Meaning if a dog has hunt and just rolls out looking for a track as compared to a dog rolling out smelling for a track that woupd pretty much be the same right?or is it a dog smell a 2 day old watering hole n finds a sent n rolls on it or a dog that goes to the watering hole dosnt smell anuthing n juat goes on looking till it does thats the best way I know how to word i hope my question makes sense

Hey Kai let me answer your question in the way I think, I'm sure other people will have other outlooks on it. So hunt is what makes em look, nose is to me is actually to combination of two things; their nose and brain. Which depending on how they are wired will determine what type of dog he is. Like a hot nosed winding type dog or a cold nosed track grubbing type dog.

So for your example of a two day old track at a watering hole, one dog smells and starts grubbing and works it out, and the other dog doesn't smell it. Yes the first would be colder nosed than the second but something I was trying to explain is the what these terms mean to me so maybe that second dog does smell it just as well as the first dog but just makes the decision to keep looking for a better track. Now that dog has a great nose and maybe even as strong of nose as the cold nosed dog and would prob be the type of dog the can "wind long range" but to me is still a hot nosed dog. To me being hot nosed and cold nosed doesn't always mean the strength of nose but a lot of times it means more what type of scent and track the dog decides to run.

I see thank you

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[lettmroll]

I read the first post and some of the others but not all.
The little I have to say about it is, in most cases I prefer a cold nose dog that can move a cold track fast. I've got a medium nosed yellow gyp right now that can move a track at a medium speed. A hot track to me is a 1 minute to 1 1/2 old track, medium is 1 1/2 to 5 hour old track and anything  five hours and up is cold and getting colder. I had a male cur that could move a 8 / 10 hour old track and make it look so easy. Anytime I get a new dog are raise a pup to two years old I make it a priority to set out cameras and figure out how old of a track he can take. Without taking a lot of time fighting the track.

[Judge peel]

Most dogs have the same strength nose some find more game due to them ranging out and looking. A lot of times a dog with a better nose won't grind out and hunt like other cuz they know nothing is around or nothing strong enough to spark them. Both of these together is what will make the dog appear to be really cold but in actuality it's just the combo. A cold nose dog and a hot nose dog smell the same thing but the cold dog will work it till it shows its self where the hot nose dogs brain says it's not enough to endeavor. Just what I think I have learned over the yrs. put a rangy average nose dog on the ground with a cold grinder and the rangy dog will most likely be bayed first at least in these parts


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[Goose87]

I've researched this topic until I've gotten headaches from over thinking and analyzing, I've got a small library of books I've ordered and read front to back about tracking and trailing, environment and environmental conditions play the biggest part in "how cold of a nose" a dog has, then brains, while line breeding for dogs that have good noses increases the olfactory nerves in the dogs nose and plays a vital role in the dogs ability to analyze scent but let's step outside of hunting and look at search and rescue dogs, I've read countless stories of Labradors, golden retrievers, and even a standard poodle coming onto a search scene where an individual has been lost for a few days and all kinds of contamination on the track , work the track out and maybe trail for miles and miles and either find the person or their body, now these are dogs who haven't been specifically bred for the cold trailing ability or tracking, even read one story where a girl had gone missing in a neighborhood and it was like several months later her parents had exhausted all other resources and finally called in a S&R golden retriever and the dog meandered through the neighborhood and smelt wherever that girl had touched and eventually lead investigators to an individual's house that had kidnapped the girl, now you tell me how a dog much less a golden retriever could smell traces of scent months old, I think it has to do with a dog having the brain to take the scent they smell and analyzing it. What about a dog that sticks to the same hog after running through groups and in woods where there's other hogs but they stick to that one hogs individual scent. Same goes with prison tracking dogs they have the brains to trail the one scent they are asked, I've seen several cur dogs in my days that could take a track that a hound was babbling on and just roll with it, good friend of mine had a full blood catahoula gyp that would straddle an old track and put her nose down in each individual track and bawl like a hound until she got it warmed up and then would go silent once she had the hog on its feet, if a dog doesn't have the tools upstairs to make the rest of the tools work then what good are you doing...


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[TheRednose]

Good post Goose. Lots of good posts so far.
Now a couple of scientific facts for us all to think about; the environment definitely has a huge effect on how well a dog can smell something. Scientifically speaking there are a few things that directly impact the strength of mammalian scent. Here are a few:
-altitude
-humidity/moisture
-temperature

Goose check your PM sent you something you might find interesting.

[parker49]

age ,intelligence and desire makes the difference in NOSE .....

[Reuben]

Good post Goose. Lots of good posts so far.
Now a couple of scientific facts for us all to think about; the environment definitely has a huge effect on how well a dog can smell something. Scientifically speaking there are a few things that directly impact the strength of mammalian scent. Here are a few:
-altitude
-humidity/moisture
-temperature

Goose check your PM sent you something you might find interesting.

There has been a few times when I have seen the dogs having lots of trouble running a decent track...if I remember correctly...at least for sure one of those times it was fairly cool with low humidity...I figured it was the low humidity and lower barometric pressure...just personal theories...

Low humidity causes fast evaporation...that is why we rarely sweat in those times...high humidity cause's slow evaporation...that is why we sweat so much because we are releasing sweat faster than what it can evaporate...

Combine low humidity with low barometric pressure and now with the lower pressure the evaporation rate can only increase...again it is a personal theory....

[Goose87]

I've been recording the BP, temp, humidity, dew point temp, and moon phase, and General conditions and descriptions of place and keeping a record of the hunt, haven't got enough recorded  yet to come up with any patterns or anything.


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[Reuben]

I've been recording the BP, temp, humidity, dew point temp, and moon phase, and General conditions and descriptions of place and keeping a record of the hunt, haven't got enough recorded  yet to come up with any patterns or anything.


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Goose...sounds like you should of been some sort of scientist...sounds like good data to collect...

Something else that has crossed my mind...does moisture content in the good ole dog olfactory need a certain amount of moisture to function at peak performance?  Common sense tells me yes it is very possible...

[Goose87]

I'm just the type of guy who gets interested in something I GET INTERESTED, I want to know what, why, and how things work and what makes them tick. I have the weather channel app on my phone and it makes it easy to keep track of most of the stuff I mentioned above...

Rueben I wouldn't think moisture content in the nose itself would affect performance, reason I say that is look at dry ground desert dogs, they have exceptional noses without any moisture being present.


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