CHICKEN S**T

[t-dog]

 I've been running my own dogs for nearly 30 years now. In that time I have met and made some GREAT friends from one coast to the other and from the Canadian border to the Mexican border. I have made memories with those men and women along with my 2 great sons and nephew and all my around home buddies. I hunted and listened to guys that were old enough to be my grandfather. The lessons learned and time shared, proves to be play a major role in my thinking and approach to hunting and life in general to this day. I have worked really hard along with a couple of hunting buddies and my father to create a family of find/bay dogs and a family of catch dogs, both of which I'm very proud of. I'm strict about what I breed and hunt. I know what works for me. Every hunter has their own flavor, be it color, size, build, or style. The one thing that EVERY TRUE HUNTER has in common though is respect for their animals and the sport. I am just about to get a belly full of these guys that call themselves dog men/women or hog hunters. I have seen more poor dogs in the last month than I care to count. I've watched people drop dogs that were a bag of bones and cut and beat up, only to get mad and cuss the animal for not hunting or quitting a hog. Their dogs haven't been wormed properly in no telling how long. Say stupid sh** like I don't know why he won't gain weight.  Well it's a no brainer, worm it! They have no idea of how to take care of an animal correctly and can't be told either. "I wormed them the other day and they're hungry when I feed." No sh**!!! You gave him a half dose of wormer for one day. You feed him at least every second or third day. He's sleeping in a cold barrel that has no bedding in it for insulation and the wind straight into it. Or, I gotta hunt him thin or he won't hunt. Some dogs do hunt better at a certain weight. I've never seen a fat marathon runner, but there's a difference in a liter hunting weight and being see through. If you can't afford to take care of 10 dogs then cut back on them to a number you can. If you are too damn sorry to take care of them EVERYDAY, no matter how many you have, then get rid of them. These are the same kind of people that hunt wherever they want regardless of permission or not. I've about decided that I've seen enough and it's fixing to be Katy bar the door for these people. If they don't have enough sense and respect for the animals and the sport then I have none for them!

[Judge peel]

Ain't that the truth


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[Jmesonp1]

Good rant. Even worse is that most of these type will be in and out of the sport in a year. Leaving a wake of destructive behavior public relations.

[WayOutWest]

I have seen that in the bulldogs world too. Puts me in a bind cause I would like to turn em in to the authorities but I  have never been able to make myself do it. It is disgusting what some folks will do to something else they claim to love.

[TheRednose]

Preach Thomas!

The truth right there, if you can't afford to keep'em right then give them to someone who can.

[Rough curs]

Wife gives me crap about the dogs ," says soon as you get home or wake up your outside with those dogs" I tell her ,when you train em to feed ,water and pick up there own sh@%, I'll spend more time with you. Lock the kids in the closet everyday see how fast you run home to let em out...lol

[jsh]

I agree with you 100% t-dog.

[t-dog]

You know, I really like some of these people. I enjoy talking and visiting with them and hunting too. At the same time, I don't want to be associated with them either. Others of them I don't like. They are just breathing good air as far as I'm concerned. These types don't need to be able to own an animal and definitely not be able to have kids. I'm with Joel, I want to do something but it's going to hurt the sport by doing it. Sometimes I feel like the hog hunter police. I because I've been doing it so long around here, people come tell it to me like I'm suppose to go do something about it. All I can do is be pissed off about it with them. Maybe  they'll get it together.

[Judge peel]

The best thing to do is just tell them to there face and give them the reasons why you say it. If there man enough to wrestle a hog then they should be tough enough to be told a little heart to heart. I have found most people will do the right thing if they truly understand and see the reasoning behind it. But some are so full of there own crap it's blinding


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[WayOutWest]

I have said something a few times over the years and started out being nice and trying to be tactful. I know I helped some dogs but a couple times it nearly come to blows and I got told it wasn't my business.

[t-dog]

Judge your right about telling them. I have done it too. It still rubs me raw. I guess I feel like I shouldn't have to tell them to feed, or get to a manageable number, or even worm. I feel like it's about the equivalent to telling them to wipe their butt. They're grown and know it has to be done.

[make-em-squeel]

and worm them 3 to 5 days in a row to get the eggs, and if that doesnt work, a week or 2 later CHANGE wormers to get different worms the one you used didnt work!

fyi for me Ive found a 500cc bottle of valbazen with 15 cc of ivomec put in the valbazen is the most cost effective wormer with the broadest spectrum including heart w's. shake it up and give 3 to 6 cc's ever so often for maintenance or 3 days in a row for worms. If that doesnt get the rare kind of worm panacur from tractor supply seems to clean up the rare kind of worm the val/ivo mix doesnt get. That above combo will cost $100 and last 5 dogs 5 yrs or more unless your having pups etc

DME on the food is great as well, non toxic and kills by abrasion to the exoskeleton, dust food for maintenance or get 1 tbsp / day in if wormy, i usually put it on an egg if thats needed

[Reuben]

I know we are getting side tracked but on worming here is what I know...when worming for intestinal and stomach worms we need to worm twice...once to get the adult worms and again 10 days later to get the newly Newly hatched worms...the first worming the worm eggs are protected from the worming meds...the second worming gets the newly hatched worms and the reason no later than 10 days later for the second worming is so that we get the worms before they are old enough to lay eggs...the idea is to break the worm cycle...otherwise it is possible that the worms will develop an immunity to the wormers used...not to mention we are just spinning our wheels

[cajunl]

Sorry to derail further...

FYI Valbezen has shown signs of bone marrow complications in dogs from extended use.

I only maintain on heartworm meds. I only de-worm when needed. I dont like to pump dogs full of chemicals when its not needed. makes it way more effective when it actually is needed. I use a mix the effective combos of meds depending on worms. One dose is all thats needed. When if you dont have fleas or ticks it should not be very often past the puppy stages. Most wormers miss a variety of tapeworms...which praziquantel gets.

Below is a post by
Dr. Jerry Vanek
A vet that competes in sled dogs. Some very good info on worming. From 2005



Much of the basics of this are in the archives. So here's the Reader's Digest version first:

Droncit (praziquantel) kills tapeworms.

Drontal (praziquantel and pyrantel) kills tapeworms, ascarids ("round" worms), and hook worms.

Drontal Plus (praziquantel, pyrantel, and fenbendazole) kills tapeworms, ascarids ("round" worms), hook worms, and whip worms.

It's all marketing strategies.

More basics:

If you give only a benzimidazole (fenbendazole, febantel, etc.), like Panacur, it will kill whip worms in one day, but hook worms and ascarids take three days of treatments. So, if you treat with Panacur, you have to give it three days in a row, unless you are absolutely, positively positive that you're only treating whip worms.

Pyrantel, like Strongid and Nemex, kills only hooks and ascarids in one day, so you only have to give it once. It does not kill whips.

So, by combining pyrantel (in Drontal) with fenbendazole (in Drontal Plus) you only have to treat once, not three days in a row, because the pyrantel kills the hooks and rounds in one day and the fenbendazole kills the whips in one day. (The praziquantel kills the tapes in one day in all three products, regardless.)

Now things get confusing, but fascinating:

Drontal Plus is a great marketing tool designed to keep the dewormer competitive by being "broad spectrum."

Drontal (praziquantal and pyrantel) was the upgrade of simple Droncit (praziquantel only) years ago to compete with Vercom Paste, which was the first major "broad-spoectrum" anthelmintic. Vercom contained praziquantal (tapes) and febantel (ascarids, hooks, and whips). Febantel gets turned into fenbendazole and oxfendazole by the liver.

The problem with Vercom Paste was that you still had to give it three days in a row, like Panacur, to kill the ascarids and rounds. But, it got ALL the tapes, not just the mammallian tapes (Taenia) that Panacur got. (Panacur doesn't kill flea tapeworms).

Vercom was broader spectrum than either Droncit or Panacur, but it still had to be given three days in a row (and it tasted just awful -- cats would get mad as hell when treated, especially by day three!!)

So Droncit, by adding pyrantel, could be marketed as a one-day dewormer that killed all types of tapes, plus ascarids and rounds. Unfortunately, it didn't kill whips. Panacur and Vercom did (but had to be given over three days). The world was not yet perfect.

So Drontal added in fenbendazole initially (instead of febantel, I suppose because of patent laws held by Vercom?). It was called Drontal Plus. Ingenious marketing. Now you could give one pill just one day for tapes, ascarids, rounds, and whips! They nailed the broad spectrum market and blasted the three-day-in-a-row Vercom Paste and Panacur.

Things get even murkier (God bless American free enterprise):

Febantel must not be protected any longer because now Drontal Plus uses it instead of fenbendazole. In addition, pyrantel tartrate is absorbed by the intestines faster than pyrantel pamoate, so many products that used to include the p-pamoate now use p-tartrate.

It gets better:

Even newer is pyrantel emboate, which apparently requires half the dose of the pamoate. AND, Oxantel pamoate got invented, to kill human whip worms, even though its close cousins pyrantel pamoate and p-tartrate don't. Now oxantel is used for canine whips, as well.

These advances have allowed other companies to capitalize on the "broad spectrum" market. Now you can find an "allwormer" with praziquantel, pyrantel emboate, febantel, and/or oxantel, all mixed up in some combination and licensed for tapes, ascarids, hooks, and whips, and all in a one-day treatment.

I suspect Drontal Plus still uses the pyrantel emboate AND good old febantel because it works as well or better than oxantel, OR because they can't get the license because of patent infringment. That may change when the patent expires.

Therefore, I would use either the Drontal Plus, with febantel, or the Allwormer, with the oxantel at this time because I can't find the actual published studies reporting the laboratory effectiveness of febantel against oxantel for whips. Otherwise, the products are the same, in that praziquantel is praziquantel and pyrantel is pyrantel, even though the latter can be absorbed at different rates depending on which analog is used (pamoate, tartrate, emboate). So, read the label.

Oh yes, it gets even better!! Now there's Drontal for Puppies! This product doesn't include praziquantel because of the life cycle of tapeworms -- young puppies can't develop them to adulthood that fast. Drontal for puppies is actually Drontal Plus without the praziquantel (Drontal Minus?? - naw, bad marketing). It contains only febantel and pyrantel embonate for ascarids, hooks, and whips.

With Drontal for Puppies, then, you can treat the same way as if you were using Strongid, except you also are killing whips. However, whips are not a problem in very young puppies. Strongid is good enough.

Broad-spectrum marketing doesn't end here. Heartguard Plus, Interceptor, Sentinel, and Revolution, all employ some facet of the "kill 'em all" anthelmintic strategy now.

Ah, commerce and industry! One spends the first half of one's veterinary career trying to figure out how a product works and the last half trying to figure out why products get invented in the first place.

Oh yes, money.

Print this out, study it, memorize it, then impress the hell out of your local veterinarian!!

And remember, we don't give worms to dogs, we de-worm them, which alone is reason enough why I never prescribe "Allwormer." Drives me absolutely nuts!!

Finally, if you know what specific parasite is affecting your dogs, you don't need to spend the money on a broad spectrum dewormer when a specific anthelmintic will suffice. Why attack something that isn't there? After all, worms aren't weapons of mass destruction.

Good luck and wait a couple of years. This will all change again.

[Black Streak]

To me, there is more to being a "dog man" than what's been said here.   I assume most average hunting dog owners can breed better than average dogs together and feed and worm them over several years.    This to me does not make them dog men.   How good their dogs hunt or look tells me a little but not a lot.    The controle of their dogs is what speaks loudest to me and distinguishes one dog man from another. 
     Lots of people consider themselves the leader of their packs.   Can they controle the pack as a single unit or do they struggle just to get 1 dog by itself to do as told?          To be realistic,  how can one be a dog man if he or she does not have a good handle on their dogs.    How can you be a dog man if you don't understand the brain of dogs and the phsycology of a dog.      How much leadership controle do you really have over a dog and especially the pack?       Does a dog man just open the kennel gate and watch the dog jump on the truck or in the box and think he has controle over this dog?       A good leader should have certain basic controles over their dogs the dogs must follow.     If you can't tell your dog to sit and stay while you walk off from it and ignore it for a bite without it getting up and doing its own thing, then do you really have controle over this dog?     Now do that with the entire pack.     Can you give a command for the pack to sit and stay  and not 1 dog get up and wonder off before you call the pack to you?      This is so easy to do yet very very few people know how to achieve this from their dogs.     This isn't a breed issue, it's a leadership issue.    When you feed the dogs, do you make them back up and sit, then dump the feed.   Make them wait a few seconds before giving them the verbal ok to come eat?    So quick and simple to do yet so few people care to excersis proper authority and controle over a dog  or pack if they consider themselves pack leaders.        If you can't do this in the house yard then what controle over the dog or pack do you really have when the dogs trigger is tripped.   
      I've seen  many catch dogs owners have zero command over their CD when its trigger is tripped.     Instead of touching the dog on the head or verbally telling the dog to let go of a pig ear after the owner takes possesion of the pig,  often times the owner has to hit the dog repeatedly in hopes of getting it to release.   Have to use a break stick while another person hooks lead up to CD and tries pulling it off then tie the dog off to the side away from the pig.         This is willful defiance by the dog which the owner accepts in large part because the owner doesn't understand dog physcology.   If you don't understand this, then how can you expect to achieve the results as I speak of?            This isn't aimed at just cd's, they are just a good example of the lack of controle the average person doesn't have over their dogs.         Pits and other cd's are fully able to let go when told to do so without the use of force or prolonged persuasion.    They can walk around a tied pig without bothering it.   Ride loose in the back of a truck with a tied pig or 4, without bothering the pigs.        So can the entire pack, not just 1 dog.   
       The phsycological controle you have over a dog or dogs can and should go well beyond just this that I have mentioned.   In my opinion this is just the basics of controle a real dog man should have over his or her entire pack, not just at the house yard but in the feild especially.   Without it in the house yard, you'll wont have controle over a dog once its trigger is tripped.          People may say, well that's stupid and unnecessary and I do good like i am, i have no problems with way things are with my dogs now despite not having this basic level of controle over the pack.       Well then ask yourself, are you really a dog man just cause he or she has raised them for many many years and they look good and we have culled a few along the way.   
      Course being competent in ones ability to handle by themselves the common illnesses, injuries of our sport, proper nutrition and maintenance of the dogs are all part of being a good dog man also.             
       I'm not trying to offend or step on toes, just trying to contribute to the discussion and help people see the differences between one dog man and another and some of what makes better dog men from  the average dog owner and hunter.       
     Merry Christmas to everyone

[Reuben]

Good post T-dog...another thing to do is provide warm shelter on cold days and nights...I don’t like using hay or shavings on account the dogs will scatter them all over the place...so I keep enough wire cages for all my dogs so they can spend those days and nights in the insulated garage...




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[Reuben]

Does anyone know why I am posting the picture twice?
Vega

[TexasHogDogs]

I was once told by a Legendary dog man .  Son to be a dog man you have to be able to think like a dog and be the dog . 

[Reuben]

I was once told by a Legendary dog man .  Son to be a dog man you have to be able to think like a dog and be the dog . 

Amen to that...