Old line Black Mouth Curs

[Cmwhogger]

National forest covers much of the southern part of the state.  More public land than you can imagine. Mainly all Russian hogs. I have lots of pics. The bay's in the big open hardwoods are spectacular and pine groves. When you hit the clearcuts and swamps things get sketchy. Some prairie hunting but usually is only good in spring. I enjoy hearing about the Ben Jordan bred dogs, I also have old stock mtn cur. Rougher and shorter range.

[parker49]

mine have  old stock mountain cur  in them .......  perty much all deer leases  here ... mostywa's here don't  like dogs

[Cmwhogger]

We ain't no longer allowed to hunt state land but national forest is fair game. I have 4 mtn cur. 2 of which are old stock and all catch. Short range winding dogs. I don't run a bull dog. Everything is caught with curs. Is there a rough line of BMCs and if so how hard are they to get ahold of. I have a Carnathan bred or Bruno bred (confused on that ordeal) which is supposed to be suicidal but as of yet is definitely not.

[jdt]

alot of them foundation dogs are pretty rough . some of these dogs that the original post was made for can be rough .   when working cattle i find out how many head and how wild or spoilt they are before i turn loose then i decide how many dogs i need and how to match 'em up . 

 i've bayed yearlings without a dog even totching a cow , and i've seen my dog catch like a bulldog on on a cow that thought she wanted to get away .



i've penned and caught cattle around here that everybody said could not be caught , much less penned

[jdt]

but there are several that know more than me

[Goose87]

BigO, maybe you or
Clue or someone may know,  how tight bred were the original big boy and blondie dogs, if they were any kin at all, they seemed to be a pretty prepotent pair that were put together


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[bigo]

I think all the old lines of east Texas dogs were more closely related than most people realize. The Big Boy dog belonged to Bill Bay and was by a black Woodruff dog that was by a black Woodruff dog out of a yellow Hutto gyp. Big Boy was out of a leopard Canon gyp. Blondie was by an Orin Granberry yellow dog and out of a Culpepper ranch gyp. The Culpepper ranch was around Rockdale Texas. I found out not too long ago that the Culpepper gyp and Owens Liz, the mother of Henry and Punch, were related and both came from the Rockdale area.

[jpuckett]

I know a lot of guys are pretty scared to go in close but a ton of these old timers would do some tight breeds, then outcross it a little bit after. It doesn’t take much genetic variability to keep the species thriving.


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[make-em-squeel]

to gritty,rough,catchy ... is the most common problem we have/cull for with our bmc's. got 2 start these line bred wb,dr long,rafky,cowboy dogs early if you dont want them to be to rough. Cur dogs are susposed to bay imo, i dont mind them catching 150 lb or smaller but dont get cut etc and wait on the cd imo

[warrent423]

A good stock bred cur dog has to be able to hold up or "stop"  the roughest of the rough, and then have enough sense to know when to come off and "bay". They will demand cattle or hogs undivided attention. Total control dogs

[bigo]

If you were driving cattle more than a short distance and had some rough dogs on them running back and forth in front of them trying to bite anything that barely stuck its head out, how long do you think it would take to cover just one mile. Some folks use them kind of dogs and have to call them off to drive cattle. What if you were in thick woods and couldn't see the front cows, what good are your alligators you have to call off then. A good stock bred dog in this country can get as rough as any dog alive when its called for but know when and how much force to use. They will lead out and give the cattle room to move out at a good walking pace and cover some ground, making for a shorter day with less wrecks.
  The same kind of dogs work well on hogs. Hogs are very intelligent and learn very quick, if they stand still the dogs won't be trying to bite and grab, but will put the ivory to them if they act like they won't to leave. What if someone had a sharp object and punch you in the rear all the time, no matter what you did, how long would you stay there and take it. What if the same sharp object was used only when you tried to leave and they poked you in the chest and left you alone when you were still. It wouldn't take me long to park it. I will agree that hog hunting is more forgiving to dogs that are real rough.

[Reuben]

  The same kind of dogs work well on hogs. Hogs are very intelligent and learn very quick, if they stand still the dogs won't be trying to bite and grab, but will put the ivory to them if they act like they won't to leave. What if someone had a sharp object and punch you in the rear all the time, no matter what you did, how long would you stay there and take it. What if the same sharp object was used only when you tried to leave and they poked you in the chest and left you alone when you were still. It wouldn't take me long to park it. I will agree that hog hunting is more forgiving to dogs that are real rough.

Reading the scene....

I was at a baying contest and at the end they turned in 4 Catahoula pups on a good sized boar...I could tell these were rough  6-7 month pups...what I was reading before my eyes was that the boar was reading the pups...he knew if he ran the pups were going to catch him...so very carefully he sat down and the pups just bayed...I very clearly saw what and why the Hog chose not to run...and I clearly saw what the pups would have done if the Hog decided to run...

Bigo...you are right on...that level of performance rides a fine line...

[jdt]

i've had some you could bay and drive bottle calves with and that would also catch a ton bull and lock down like a bulldog .

[chanceS]

Something about a good cow dog that never fails to amaze me every time I see it is how they can get as rough as needed to bring a run off back but if it happens to be a pair that breaks they’ll never even look at the calf much less catch it. Even the young dogs that I start I guess the only explanation is intelligence

[make-em-squeel]

i've had some you could bay and drive bottle calves with and that would also catch a ton bull and lock down like a bulldog .

thats intellegence 

[jdt]

yessir , but to get intelligence  like that in dogs it takes years and years of  breeding , using  and culling . i just am lucky to be able to get aholt of what i've got and try to keep'em the way i found'em for my boys .



them fellers probly killed more dogs than i'll ever use .

[Goose87]

i've had some you could bay and drive bottle calves with and that would also catch a ton bull and lock down like a bulldog .

thats intellegence 

The very reason when I decided to embark on this project I’m brewing up that I finally settled on the family of cur dogs I currently have and to be the foundation on which im going to breed around and that is that stock mentality, apply just enough pressure to get the game to stop and hold and be rough as necessary to stop it when needed, my only problem I’m seeing and not really to huge of an issue is that they can be a little to loose baying once they’ve been cut up good a time or two, more so whenever they’re solo, when there’s a few of them together then it’s not that big an issue, I think that stock working mentality/trait is something way often over looked when breeding cur dogs...


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[The Old Man]

A lot of the difference of opinion on strains and styles of Cur dogs comes from different time frames and cultures or areas of the country. The lines of Curs that this topic was originally about were bred to find, put together, bay and "lead" stock. Some places Cur dogs were all about circle, bite, and call off to drive. Two totally different styles. The older generation with the lead dogs used on hogs used 1 or 2 dogs to find bay and lead hogs, if a dog killed a pig, or caught a hog out of a bunch "without being directed to" he was immediately killed. Those hogs were part of a hungry family's living and a dog was supposed to help them make a living not mash the life out of it.
Usually where they originated and were used they didn't find 200 head at a time but smaller groups of cattle and hogs in real thick rough country that were going to be driven for miles not a few hundred yards, nor with a big crew of people helping.
Ben Jordan had pretty much quit messing with hogs by the time he got into this strain of Yellow dogs, prior to that he had a good strain of Leopard dogs used on cattle and hogs, but lost out on them and "finally after a long search" found these yellow dogs that suited him. "They were like the Leopard dogs he had lost out on".  BEN JORDAN DESPISES A ROUGH DOG.
I know most of you folks would never believe that hogs today can or could be driven but if you could find a pocket of hogs that hadn't had modern day hog hunters in them with a bunch of rough dogs you could drive them with 1 or 2 dogs of the right style, and with a little know how, yes even the heavier Russian cross hogs. I bayed a set just the other day with Plott dogs that if I'd had a Cur dog or two could have been driven. It was 8 or 9 big sows "they were not heavy Russian" that really bayed solid and rallied up a storm and allowed me to go right up to them without flushing. I actually RUINED them by turning the catch dog loose and catching one, then the dogs rolled out and bayed 2 more singles which we caught as well, that group won't ever stand bayed the same again. I taught them they were not safe by rallying against the "predators".
Cattle or hogs that don't want to stop as a group but will stay together will stop and settle somewhere if the dogs don't flush and scatter them in their efforts to stop them. Dogs have to maintain the front end and stay "outside" of the group. The man needs to stay out of the way until that happens.
 most hogs are different today but we have made them different, all of them are just some old sows pig they are livestock in a sense and have inherent instincts that are still in them.
It doesn't bother me one little bit if people disagree with what I have said or think I am crazy, really I find it pretty funny. I don't care how you hunt hogs, I've already confessed to not doing it the old way even though I know how to and what kind of dog it takes.


























' he was killed  immediately. Total different concept of todays hog hunting

[jdt]

yessir clue . ben told me he had driven hogs 12 miles before and penned them .

he said one time he had 8 big barrs driving em of the mountain and they wadded up agaist an old smokehouse . he just sat and wathed em bay awhile , directly one of em jumped thru  thedoor , then another and another until finally he had emm all penned lol .  he just left his dogs bayed and went and got the rig ha ha .


    i'd say that was a good day !

[warrent423]

And then there was that style of cur dog that incorporated the two styles you mentioned into one, and were used to actually hunt, catch, drive, and pen truly wild cattle in very rough country. Had to be able to either wind or track cattle in rough woods. Stop and anchor singles or be able to bunch and keep together as a set, cattle that were found. Be able to keep that same "growing" set bunched in those same rough woods, while giving them "room" up front to lead out or being called off to drive. Being able to be sent again and again to hold them up and circle them back into a bunch when they got spread out or to stay up front and lead, depending on how the set was acting. Being able to do this mile after mile, through thick scrub, for days at a time, on to distant holding pens.  Dogs with a fine balance of rankness and finesse and the intelligence to know when to apply either. No "alligators". Just dogs that were in "total" control of the stock they were used on.   Although I myself have actually hunted very few cattle, many of my Kin did it for a living generations ago using cur dogs of this very type.