March 28, 2024, 09:52:42 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: ETHD....WE'RE ALL ABOUT HOG DOGGIN!
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 7   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Breeding Dogs Discussion  (Read 8801 times)
Reuben
Internet Hog Hunting Specialist
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9461


View Profile
« on: March 25, 2018, 11:57:56 am »

Years of line breeding and selecting dogs that perform a certain task or tasks well and also have a certain look about them takes many years of selecting for those traits...no deviation and no excuses...sometimes we as consumers might not appreciate the time and money it took to produce these type of dogs consistently...even then we might not like that style of dog due to folks not liking the same thing in a dog...but if they are exactly what you like you are one lucky person...

genetic variability...we can breed a tight line bred cur dog that lacks stopping power to one that does and this dog comes from a long line of dogs that does...hopefully most other traits are the same for the sire and dam...we keep as many pups as we can so verify and select those that exhibit the traits we want...it is possible that none inherit or that all inherit the desirable traits and somewhere in between as well...it depends on whether it is a dominant or recessive trait...

many years ago a friend of mine bred his Plott hound to a fit bull that was probably a pound pitbull...the Plott was from top bear and hog dogs and he was a good one...he sold a pup to a friend of mine and the pup grew up to be a cull...no hunt, no bay and no catch...

another young man bought one of those pups out of the same litter and he was an outstanding hog dog...he looked like a plott hound on steroids...just a good looking dog that could get it done...track, find, stop, bay and catch hogs...

Logged

Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
bigo
Alpha Dog
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 591


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2018, 02:16:56 pm »

I think compensation breeding is the worst thing you can do if you are trying to maintain a line of dogs. Compensation breeding is breeding a dog with a major fault to a dog that is strong in that fault, with hopes of correcting said fault. You may correct it in some of the pups but it will come back to bite you sooner or later. A person should strive to breed dogs that are balanced, in other words, no major faults.
Logged

The older I get, the better I was.
If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principle difference between a dog and a man.
         Mark Twain
Reuben
Internet Hog Hunting Specialist
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9461


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2018, 02:29:53 pm »

BigO...I agree

Breeding a sway backed dog to a roach back dog in hopes of getting a correct back is wrong...now we have introduced 2 faults to the offspring...
Logged

Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
Reuben
Internet Hog Hunting Specialist
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9461


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2018, 08:52:27 pm »

Linebreeding;

Quite a few of us agree that linebreeding is a good way to produce good dogs whether they are cow dogs or hunting dogs...but linebreeding can take your dogs to a higher level or even towards a lower level of performance in our breeding program dependent on our standards...

One of the first things to know is how should the dog be physically built to perform well?

We must know what a good hunting dog is as well...probably the most important thing...the reason I say this is...how could we breed better dogs if it isn’t absolutely clear in our minds eye as to what a good to great hunting dog is?

We need to know how the pups progress...at what age do they Bay, trail, wind and want to hunt?  We need to know these things so keeping a log, a mental or written log as to which pup did what at what age etc...one day this information will be the deciding factor as to which pups stay and which will be sold or given away...

We need to understand the pups progression curve and cull those that aren’t on that curve...culling pups from the breeding program because they aren’t on the curve just means the pup should be sold or given away...the pup is culled from the breeding program because he is not on the curve or ahead...we want to produce pups that meet those requirements so one day as breeders they can produce more of the same and preferably a higher percentage of pups per litter that inherit these traits...the other pups that aren’t on this curve are removed but still have the potential to be great dogs...
A lot of times just knowing how the pups do on that curve will tell us that more than likely they will make good dogs when grown...

The curve can last for a year or a little longer and we should know by then for sure...sometimes we can know with a 4 month old pup...

I like to look for naturals that naturally find, wind, trail and Bay...yes we can expose over and over and train to get one to do what we want if they have it in them...but we need to know that more than likely we will raise them up and they will produce more of the same...so we need to stay away from that as much as possible...we should breed dogs to a higher standard...
I believe in feeding tracks to make a good dog better...but I also believe in not feeding a bunch of tracks in trying to make a cull into a hunting dog...I don’t have much patience for this type of dog...this dog is taking up valuable space...

If we keep them related and breed this way we will produce better dogs consistently...
Logged

Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
Reuben
Internet Hog Hunting Specialist
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9461


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2018, 06:50:18 pm »

linebreeiding...many folks assume that the pups are well bred because they are line bred...it depends on the breeder...if he or she keep and follow a high standard for a good all around hunting dog then I would agree...

we can breed a wiener dog to a long line of greyhounds and these dogs could be considered line bred...I used that as an example just so we can look a little harder into a line bred line of dogs...

Puppy selection...lots of times if we pay attention to the pups we can learn quite a bit about them...some will wind naturally and find easily and they can be consistently the best every time they are tested...simple, simple tests...let your imagination be your guide...at 4 months take them to the woods and one or two pups just might surprise you and roll out and make a loop...an internal genetic yearning to make that loop was calling and the pup adhered to the calling...look for natural instincts in a pup...most of the time if not all the time these pups will grow up to do what they were doing as little pups only better and usually better than their siblings...so why not breed these types...natural ability begets more natural ability...

some folks will say line breeding doesn't work and some even say that the breeding was a failure...most of the time when breeding to a high standard we will get a higher average of good dogs per litter and at the minimum a decent average...I believe that with each generation we are cleaning up the gene pool through proper selection...
Logged

Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
The Old Man
Alpha Dog
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 806


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2018, 08:02:49 pm »

I would call the Weiner dog to the long line of greyhound breeding an outcross breeding and no longer line bred unless and until you had bred that litter back into the same grey hounds a couple of generations. Then I would describe them as being line bred except for one outcross so many gens ago.
Logged
Austesus
Boar Slayer
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1055


On the quest to be a dog man.


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2018, 07:23:30 am »

Thanks for the info Reuben, I always enjoy reading the discussions on breeding.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Logged

Trying to raise better dogs than yesterday.
Goose87
Boar Slayer
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1404


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2018, 03:38:07 am »

Some good reading here, but here’s a little spin off, almost every breeding discussion is about line breeding and starting with good dogs to begin with, but hardly ever any talk about a person having to start from absolute scratch, not having the means, opportunity to own, or access to a family of dogs that someone else has already done the hard part, I whole heartedly agree that line breeding for what you want is the best way to consistently produce dogs of the caliber you desire in future generations but at some point in time said family of dogs was made from scratch like granny’s biscuits and was the result of best to best or best of what you own to as good as you could get your hands on or access to, I prefer line breeding but am not scared to breed to something I see that adds what I feel like is needed in my pack as long as both sides are for the most part very similar in style but one side lacks in dept that the other is above average in, I guess this would be considered corrective or compensation breeding to an extent, I won’t make the cross unless I have access to other family members on both sides and the parent families on top and bottom are prepotent in passing on the traits that I desire, to give an example of my personal situation, I took a running walker female that is of the type that runs a piece of game with the intentions of sinking her teeth into it and bays just as hard as any cur dog and is from a family of dominant speed and drive dogs who finish at or near the top in just about every trial they’re entered in but aren’t known for their trailing abilities and bred her to Cajuns Jack dog who  was known for his nose and scenting abilities, I know I’m not mixing paint here and looking for some to have her speed and nose and some to have his nose and speed and hopefully if hybrid vigor takes over there’ll be a few who are
Good combination of both, this is a complete outcross of two different breeds from two families who aren’t heavily line bred themselves but are good reproducers with a good deal of prepotency behind them, I have access to enough of the dams close kin,( full sibs, nieces and nephews) and hopefully offspring of jack to cross back into one another to be able to line out what it is I’m wanting, and that being blazing track speed with the nose to back it up, on the other side of my yard I have some cur dogs that I was lucky enough to get my hands on before they died out and have made enough crosses within them to the point I have enough here and strategically placed with others to be able to breed around a few certain individuals behind them and have already started lining them out and have predicted what should be expected out of a few litters so far based off of their inbreeding coefficients and knowledge of their ancestors with pretty good accuracy, I’ve gotten them to a point an outcross is needed bc I’ve seen some inbreeding depression taking place based on the overall size of some of them, I’ve noticed the tighter crosses I’ve made seemed to throw smaller framed dogs compared to the parents and ancestors, these dogs are above the average as far as cur dogs but lacked in a few areas of importance to me and one being the ability to pick up a loss with the quickness and overall line control of the track, they are pretty fast on track but are known for overshooting a track then bobbling at times to get it lined back out,  the more time a
dog spends trying to line a track out after a sharp turn or over run the more distance and hog is able to put in between himself and the dogs, I found a family of running walkers bred solely for running bobcats with about 50 years of EXTREME critique selecting and culling for those individuals who were “cat savvy”  and are a bobcats worst night mare once his scent fills their nostrils that are heavily line bred themselves, and have and reproduce the track running style that I love and prefer  and are tightly bred enough that the male I’ve bred to twice out of that family goes back to one individual male nearly 190 times in 11-12 generations and he himself was the result of some line breeding, my plans are to keep crossing the cur family and cat family back into each other until I get the consistency I’m looking for and then if the good lord is willing and the creek don’t rise later on take the results of the walker/plott and cur/walker crosses and continue on with my breedings around them, I know it seems like a long shot and it maybe to some but I’ve always liked a challenge, i know some my say what I’m looking for already exist and that it can be found in such and such breed and yes that’s true but I’ve always enjoyed making something myself and watching it manifest before me, I have put a tremendous amount of thought into this project and didn’t just dream this up in my head one day as the ultimate dog or something, instead this is the result of a lot of observations over the years about traits that I feel, in my personal situations and experiences are needed and my preference, I didn’t just go out and breed  just any random individuals either, I’ve done my homework and waited until I found what I was looking for before I ever started adding anything into my cur dogs that I had been working on, I also selected individuals that performed and excelled and were from my region and areas that I mainly hunt, the walker/plott cross is a complete shot in the dark but one that I feel is going to produce, so far the pups all seem to be game crazy fools, just how fast and what kinda nose is yet to be determined, the cur/walker crosses seem to be working, before making the first cross I already knew what I was going to get out of my curs but wasn’t sure what the cat dogs were going to bring to the table, as of now that first cross is a little over two and there are 3 females and one male that a man could take anyone of them by themselves and start decent tracks and tie hogs any day of the week, the female cur I used this time is a good reproducer and her offspring have made some nice dogs and is one of the dogs I’m planning on building around as a cornerstone, I got a little long winded on this but find it difficult to try to translate my thoughts into words that might be understood, without giving a description about my situation and what I got going on so it doesn’t seem as if I just took some random dogs and began churning out pups without any forethought, if any of y’all have any input, questions, or criticism don’t be afraid to send it my way, I don’t mind input that makes me scratch my noggin....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Logged
Goose87
Boar Slayer
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1404


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2018, 05:16:43 am »

Another thing a person must ask themselves, is what are they expecting to get out of the mating, are they breeding for reproduction and performance to be able to continue a family strain or
Line out certain traits or are
they looking to get performance without any worries of breeding for the future ( ex. a battle cross), line breeding isn’t the only way to get good dogs, it’s just the most functional way to maintain consistency, predictability, and type, hybrid vigor more times than not produces the perfect combination of the parents in a pup but is usually only seen in one or two out of a litter and the only way to know which one it is, is to keep the entire litter or keep them close to find those individuals especially when mating two completely unrelated individuals, at some point though if a person kept culling through enough litters of outcrosses and only crossed those individuals who displayed hybrid vigor amongst one another, even being unrelated, hybrid vigor will eventually start becoming hybrid dominant as the traits that are desired, selected, and kept ate becoming compounded and are essentially being lined out in a way, and eventually those traits, which are the dominant ones that are phenotypically expressed, start pairing up on the chromosomal and molecular levels, it takes a great deal of litters of these types of
dogs produced (hybrid vigor to hybrid vigor) and strict culling but can be achieved, study a good bit of the pedigrees of the running walker breed as a whole and you will notice that there is more breedings based around hybrid vigor than line breeding but it has been done for so long and kept within a certain format ( within a breed standard) that there’s a consistency in type and look but not always performance, you’ll see that mostly with the field trial hunters who a lot of times want to breed to what ever is winning, and most of the times it’s those barn burning super stars that were the only ones of their litters that performed at that level, then the process repeats itself, same situation within the competitive coon hunting world, ever wonder why there hasn’t been a dominant family of dogs win a higher percentage of the big money hunts, sure there has been a prepotent stud dog come around every so often, if certain traits are desired and only the individuals who display such traits are the only ones who are contributing to the gene pool over time most of the undesirable variables (recessive traits) start becoming phased out as a result of only the ones displaying hybrid vigor ( dominate traits) being kept and bred, look into the way John Wick helped out the treeing walker breed a great deal, he experimented a little with line breeding, but never pursued it very far and bred great dogs to great dogs and eliminated the rest from the gene pool and produced some of the best dogs in the country year in and year out and made a dang good living selling coon hounds and his breeding strategy was basically a result of hybrid vigor to hybrid vigor, however he did stay with certain stud dogs who produced dogs to his standard and would breed the cream of his crop from one mating to the same from a completely unrelated mating and overtime eliminated the majority of the traits he considered undesirable and was able to breed high caliber and quality dogs consistently over time and did it without any heavy line breeding, in my opinion had he pursued his line breeding project deeper and practiced it more than his other strategy, there ain’t a bit of telling what he would have been able to do for the breed, during his time, the vast majority of the hunting dog public considered any type of line/in breeding as a major taboo and sure fire way to get dogs with defects and as a result it was rarely practiced openly, and take a look at a good deal of the APBT pedigrees from the good ole days of the sport and you’ll see quite a bit of hybrid vigor dogs who were big money winners but weren’t worth a flip in the brood box and the higher percentage of those dogs were the result of two different families or types being crossed to each other...

Another factor that isn’t an essential but is a contributing factor is the bitches diet and nutrition during pregnancy and overall well being and welfare, don’t get me wrong a good dog is a good dog no matter the circumstances but the mothers diet during whelping has a big influence on helping a pup reach their genetic potential, a poor quality diet isnt going to provide a pups developing body the necessary nutrients required to achieve the most out of its genetic package, there’s been numerous scientifically backed studies that determined that females fed a diet high in DHA during pregnancy and whelping raised pups that had a much higher cognitive development and function than those who weren’t, this also applied to feeding pups after weaning as well, another factor that has been proven time and again is the Bio-sensor stimulation performed on pups during their first 2 weeks of life, I know this doesn’t actually pertain to the breeding of dogs but is a major factor when trying to get as much juice out of the lemon as possible and is one of the most often overlooked determining factors for the simple reason that most of us haven’t ever given it any thought and have never looked that deep into it, I’ve been contemplating on if I should’ve opened my mouth on this subject or not and finally said the heck with it, I’ll add more later that will really have y’all thinking that ole Goose has fell off his rocker and hit his head, lol...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Logged
Slim9797
Hog Master
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1807



View Profile
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2018, 02:13:53 pm »

Another thing a person must ask themselves, is what are they expecting to get out of the mating, are they breeding for reproduction and performance to be able to continue a family strain or
Line out certain traits or are
they looking to get performance without any worries of breeding for the future ( ex. a battle cross), line breeding isn’t the only way to get good dogs, it’s just the most functional way to maintain consistency, predictability, and type, hybrid vigor more times than not produces the perfect combination of the parents in a pup but is usually only seen in one or two out of a litter and the only way to know which one it is, is to keep the entire litter or keep them close to find those individuals especially when mating two completely unrelated individuals, at some point though if a person kept culling through enough litters of outcrosses and only crossed those individuals who displayed hybrid vigor amongst one another, even being unrelated, hybrid vigor will eventually start becoming hybrid dominant as the traits that are desired, selected, and kept ate becoming compounded and are essentially being lined out in a way, and eventually those traits, which are the dominant ones that are phenotypically expressed, start pairing up on the chromosomal and molecular levels, it takes a great deal of litters of these types of
dogs produced (hybrid vigor to hybrid vigor) and strict culling but can be achieved, study a good bit of the pedigrees of the running walker breed as a whole and you will notice that there is more breedings based around hybrid vigor than line breeding but it has been done for so long and kept within a certain format ( within a breed standard) that there’s a consistency in type and look but not always performance, you’ll see that mostly with the field trial hunters who a lot of times want to breed to what ever is winning, and most of the times it’s those barn burning super stars that were the only ones of their litters that performed at that level, then the process repeats itself, same situation within the competitive coon hunting world, ever wonder why there hasn’t been a dominant family of dogs win a higher percentage of the big money hunts, sure there has been a prepotent stud dog come around every so often, if certain traits are desired and only the individuals who display such traits are the only ones who are contributing to the gene pool over time most of the undesirable variables (recessive traits) start becoming phased out as a result of only the ones displaying hybrid vigor ( dominate traits) being kept and bred, look into the way John Wick helped out the treeing walker breed a great deal, he experimented a little with line breeding, but never pursued it very far and bred great dogs to great dogs and eliminated the rest from the gene pool and produced some of the best dogs in the country year in and year out and made a dang good living selling coon hounds and his breeding strategy was basically a result of hybrid vigor to hybrid vigor, however he did stay with certain stud dogs who produced dogs to his standard and would breed the cream of his crop from one mating to the same from a completely unrelated mating and overtime eliminated the majority of the traits he considered undesirable and was able to breed high caliber and quality dogs consistently over time and did it without any heavy line breeding, in my opinion had he pursued his line breeding project deeper and practiced it more than his other strategy, there ain’t a bit of telling what he would have been able to do for the breed, during his time, the vast majority of the hunting dog public considered any type of line/in breeding as a major taboo and sure fire way to get dogs with defects and as a result it was rarely practiced openly, and take a look at a good deal of the APBT pedigrees from the good ole days of the sport and you’ll see quite a bit of hybrid vigor dogs who were big money winners but weren’t worth a flip in the brood box and the higher percentage of those dogs were the result of two different families or types being crossed to each other...

Another factor that isn’t an essential but is a contributing factor is the bitches diet and nutrition during pregnancy and overall well being and welfare, don’t get me wrong a good dog is a good dog no matter the circumstances but the mothers diet during whelping has a big influence on helping a pup reach their genetic potential, a poor quality diet isnt going to provide a pups developing body the necessary nutrients required to achieve the most out of its genetic package, there’s been numerous scientifically backed studies that determined that females fed a diet high in DHA during pregnancy and whelping raised pups that had a much higher cognitive development and function than those who weren’t, this also applied to feeding pups after weaning as well, another factor that has been proven time and again is the Bio-sensor stimulation performed on pups during their first 2 weeks of life, I know this doesn’t actually pertain to the breeding of dogs but is a major factor when trying to get as much juice out of the lemon as possible and is one of the most often overlooked determining factors for the simple reason that most of us haven’t ever given it any thought and have never looked that deep into it, I’ve been contemplating on if I should’ve opened my mouth on this subject or not and finally said the heck with it, I’ll add more later that will really have y’all thinking that ole Goose has fell off his rocker and hit his head, lol...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Definitely wanting to hear more of what you have to say pertaining to this "bio-sensor stimulation"




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Logged

We run dillo dogs that trash on hogs
Reuben
Internet Hog Hunting Specialist
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9461


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2018, 04:38:37 pm »

Goose...thanks for the awesome posts...and your second post last paragraph...I was going there next...taking it to a new level...I haven't seen posted anywhere other than what I have...I will see about copying and pasting to save me some typing...

I once read that the pups can only be as good as the parents...from my experience that is not true. Closer to the truth is, the pups can only be as good as what is in the parents...

 I also believe in how the pregnant gyp is handled can actually change the pups during the gestation period, especially after the 6th week of gestation...if you hunt hog let her bay a hog in a bay pen...take her hunting...feed her wild hog etc...

 Let us hear your thought process on the "outside the box breeding better dogs"...thanks



Logged

Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
Reuben
Internet Hog Hunting Specialist
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9461


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2018, 04:57:42 pm »

A short story:

 My grandson was having a birthday party at my house about 12 years ago...one of the kids that showed up was a relative on the other side of the family and he was about 4 years old...all the little kids got to playing outside when my grandson and a few others came running in all excited...they said, Caden is eating peppers from the plant...and I said no way... Caden said Uh huh (yes) like it wasn't a big deal...so I said to go pick a small handful and show me...he goes out and picks green and red Birdseye peppers and comes in and pops them in his mouth and eats them just a crunching away...I said show me, open your mouth and his mouth was red pigmented from the peppers...of course I said no more peppers for you Caden...I couldn't wait for his mama to show up so I could tell her what we saw...

 She shows up and I tell her what happened...she smiled and said they found out about him eating peppers when he was around 2 years old...he just reached from his baby chair and grabbed a jalapeño pepper and started munching...so I asked her if there was an explanation...she said that when she got pregnant with Caden she craved and ate many a jalapeño and it was something she normally wouldn't eat otherwise...but she at the for the duration of her pregnancy...

I started believing back in the early 1980's when a man put out an article...at first I thought the man had lost it...but when he explained it I was a believer...

smoking a cigarette...when we light up and inhale...the smoke and nicotine enter into the lungs where the blood stream picks up the nicotine and then the blood carries the nicotine through your body and into your cells...there are all types of chemical reactions taking place...this can be addictive and that is why some babies are born crack addicts...now lets go to the pregnant gyp...

the momma dog...she is pregnant and running a hog track...she is excited and she is inhaling the hog scent and her blood stream is picking up the hog cells and transporting them...her adrenaline is up and she gets to the bay and is hammering...it is a sow and she catches with the cur dogs and she has hog blood in her mouth and she is fired up...the puppies feel what is happening and they are tied in to he gyp and get their nutrition through her...

you can visualize what could happen with the pups...

at five weeks before feeding throw a fresh hog head in the yard and watch the pups go crazy eating up the neck meat...do this about three times...it is the little details that can make a big difference...
Logged

Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
Reuben
Internet Hog Hunting Specialist
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9461


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2018, 05:04:17 pm »

Years ago I went to see a man about something I do not remember about what. What I do remember is that he had a dog in his back yard that looked like one bad to the bone pitbull with a lab type head...I asked him what breed and he said half lab and half English bulldog...he also said she raised ten pups and all looked mostly like lab types except this one...

 This was puzzling to me at first, and my final theory that made since me was this...The English bulldog gene pool deviates so much away from normal that it can not reproduce itself consistently when bred outside the English bulldog breed. We all know that the dog can barely breathe and needs air conditioning to survive the summer heat and most always the females deliver by C-section...it seems to me that quite a bit of the English bulldog exaggerated traits must be recessives...
 It seems to me that some of that theory applies to the once in a lifetime dog because the deviate so much from the norm...we can use one of the greatest racehorses of all time as an example...Secretariet never reproduced himself...
Logged

Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
Reuben
Internet Hog Hunting Specialist
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9461


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2018, 05:13:56 pm »

 "Thinking Outside the Box"...

Over Time...


One day it will be common practice to feed, hunt the gyp on purpose to produce better pups...there will be a science for doing these thing to change/modify the genetic make-up to include the in our hunting dogs...

 I recorded a Nova Show (documentary) about lead in water “POISONED WATER”, it was about water issues in the city of Flint, Michigan…
They were discussing how lead poisoning affected children to include babies in the womb…the scientists say that lead goes where calcium goes in our bodies and they also said an unborn child will be born with the lead in their system because it was transported from mom to fetus…lead will replace some of the calcium where calcium is supposed to be concentrated and one of these places is between neurons which are involved with the communications system of the nervous system and this includes the brain…the lead disrupts this function especially in young children with developing brains…Calcium is also vital in brain cell health and is needed in maintaining healthy cells and for cells to produce more cells for growth…
The average IQ in children of Flint, Michigan was tested to be 86 and the average should be 100…
As already mentioned the science research indicates that the pregnant moms fetus when needing calcium for fetus development will furnish the fetus with the needed calcium and since the lead tends to congregate where the calcium is located, then the fetus can get lead poisoning through this process as well…the brain that has been exposed to high levels of lead in a child will have a smaller brain than that of a child who has not been exposed to high levels of lead…there are many different studies about the mother and her unborn child about other conditions good and bad, and if we are to learn more about these things…then it is possible to breed better dogs and raise children with a head start in life…

see you tube video below and you can visualize more of what is coming one day...breeding to a higher level...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqG5TagD0uU
Logged

Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
Goose87
Boar Slayer
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1404


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2018, 08:06:11 pm »

Another thing a person must ask themselves, is what are they expecting to get out of the mating, are they breeding for reproduction and performance to be able to continue a family strain or
Line out certain traits or are
they looking to get performance without any worries of breeding for the future ( ex. a battle cross), line breeding isn’t the only way to get good dogs, it’s just the most functional way to maintain consistency, predictability, and type, hybrid vigor more times than not produces the perfect combination of the parents in a pup but is usually only seen in one or two out of a litter and the only way to know which one it is, is to keep the entire litter or keep them close to find those individuals especially when mating two completely unrelated individuals, at some point though if a person kept culling through enough litters of outcrosses and only crossed those individuals who displayed hybrid vigor amongst one another, even being unrelated, hybrid vigor will eventually start becoming hybrid dominant as the traits that are desired, selected, and kept ate becoming compounded and are essentially being lined out in a way, and eventually those traits, which are the dominant ones that are phenotypically expressed, start pairing up on the chromosomal and molecular levels, it takes a great deal of litters of these types of
dogs produced (hybrid vigor to hybrid vigor) and strict culling but can be achieved, study a good bit of the pedigrees of the running walker breed as a whole and you will notice that there is more breedings based around hybrid vigor than line breeding but it has been done for so long and kept within a certain format ( within a breed standard) that there’s a consistency in type and look but not always performance, you’ll see that mostly with the field trial hunters who a lot of times want to breed to what ever is winning, and most of the times it’s those barn burning super stars that were the only ones of their litters that performed at that level, then the process repeats itself, same situation within the competitive coon hunting world, ever wonder why there hasn’t been a dominant family of dogs win a higher percentage of the big money hunts, sure there has been a prepotent stud dog come around every so often, if certain traits are desired and only the individuals who display such traits are the only ones who are contributing to the gene pool over time most of the undesirable variables (recessive traits) start becoming phased out as a result of only the ones displaying hybrid vigor ( dominate traits) being kept and bred, look into the way John Wick helped out the treeing walker breed a great deal, he experimented a little with line breeding, but never pursued it very far and bred great dogs to great dogs and eliminated the rest from the gene pool and produced some of the best dogs in the country year in and year out and made a dang good living selling coon hounds and his breeding strategy was basically a result of hybrid vigor to hybrid vigor, however he did stay with certain stud dogs who produced dogs to his standard and would breed the cream of his crop from one mating to the same from a completely unrelated mating and overtime eliminated the majority of the traits he considered undesirable and was able to breed high caliber and quality dogs consistently over time and did it without any heavy line breeding, in my opinion had he pursued his line breeding project deeper and practiced it more than his other strategy, there ain’t a bit of telling what he would have been able to do for the breed, during his time, the vast majority of the hunting dog public considered any type of line/in breeding as a major taboo and sure fire way to get dogs with defects and as a result it was rarely practiced openly, and take a look at a good deal of the APBT pedigrees from the good ole days of the sport and you’ll see quite a bit of hybrid vigor dogs who were big money winners but weren’t worth a flip in the brood box and the higher percentage of those dogs were the result of two different families or types being crossed to each other...

Another factor that isn’t an essential but is a contributing factor is the bitches diet and nutrition during pregnancy and overall well being and welfare, don’t get me wrong a good dog is a good dog no matter the circumstances but the mothers diet during whelping has a big influence on helping a pup reach their genetic potential, a poor quality diet isnt going to provide a pups developing body the necessary nutrients required to achieve the most out of its genetic package, there’s been numerous scientifically backed studies that determined that females fed a diet high in DHA during pregnancy and whelping raised pups that had a much higher cognitive development and function than those who weren’t, this also applied to feeding pups after weaning as well, another factor that has been proven time and again is the Bio-sensor stimulation performed on pups during their first 2 weeks of life, I know this doesn’t actually pertain to the breeding of dogs but is a major factor when trying to get as much juice out of the lemon as possible and is one of the most often overlooked determining factors for the simple reason that most of us haven’t ever given it any thought and have never looked that deep into it, I’ve been contemplating on if I should’ve opened my mouth on this subject or not and finally said the heck with it, I’ll add more later that will really have y’all thinking that ole Goose has fell off his rocker and hit his head, lol...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Definitely wanting to hear more of what you have to say pertaining to this "bio-sensor stimulation"




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

To save myself from writing half of another novel I’m going to cheat...

http://breedingbetterdogs.com/article/early-neurological-stimulation

I’ve practiced this on the last 4 or 5 litters I’ve raised and don’t have the means or resources to give a complete and accurate answer based on actual scientific data but can also say that I don’t see where it’s is harming or negatively impacting anything by doing it either, for what it’s worth it does seem like the ones who received the stimulations seem to be a little more, for lack of better words, smarter in some ways to me, such as taking to chain breaking a little easier and not fighting the chain like a wild banshee, picking up and responding quicker and handling discipline better, having the common sense not to number 2 all over their living area and box but instead use the same spots time after time away from their house and on the outside of their chain area( don’t know if that has a damn thing in the world to do with the stimulation’s or I just have some dogs with good house manners lol) seem to be less shell shocked when being hauled the first few times, again these are just a few observations I’ve made or could all just be one big coincidence...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Logged
Goose87
Boar Slayer
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1404


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2018, 09:23:47 pm »

A short story:

 My grandson was having a birthday party at my house about 12 years ago...one of the kids that showed up was a relative on the other side of the family and he was about 4 years old...all the little kids got to playing outside when my grandson and a few others came running in all excited...they said, Caden is eating peppers from the plant...and I said no way... Caden said Uh huh (yes) like it wasn't a big deal...so I said to go pick a small handful and show me...he goes out and picks green and red Birdseye peppers and comes in and pops them in his mouth and eats them just a crunching away...I said show me, open your mouth and his mouth was red pigmented from the peppers...of course I said no more peppers for you Caden...I couldn't wait for his mama to show up so I could tell her what we saw...

 She shows up and I tell her what happened...she smiled and said they found out about him eating peppers when he was around 2 years old...he just reached from his baby chair and grabbed a jalapeño pepper and started munching...so I asked her if there was an explanation...she said that when she got pregnant with Caden she craved and ate many a jalapeño and it was something she normally wouldn't eat otherwise...but she at the for the duration of her pregnancy...

I started believing back in the early 1980's when a man put out an article...at first I thought the man had lost it...but when he explained it I was a believer...

smoking a cigarette...when we light up and inhale...the smoke and nicotine enter into the lungs where the blood stream picks up the nicotine and then the blood carries the nicotine through your body and into your cells...there are all types of chemical reactions taking place...this can be addictive and that is why some babies are born crack addicts...now lets go to the pregnant gyp...

the momma dog...she is pregnant and running a hog track...she is excited and she is inhaling the hog scent and her blood stream is picking up the hog cells and transporting them...her adrenaline is up and she gets to the bay and is hammering...it is a sow and she catches with the cur dogs and she has hog blood in her mouth and she is fired up...the puppies feel what is happening and they are tied in to he gyp and get their nutrition through her...

you can visualize what could happen with the pups...

at five weeks before feeding throw a fresh hog head in the yard and watch the pups go crazy eating up the neck meat...do this about three times...it is the little details that can make a big difference...

I too once thought this exact same thing but the read about this topic a little more and found out that the umbilical cord houses two arteries and a single large vein, the cord has no nerves so the only way that communication takes place between the mother and the fetus is through the placenta, so anything that may affect the nutrition of the mother will have a direct affect on the fetus, hence the reason baby’s of addicts are born addicts is because of the stimulants entered into the blood stream which is connected to the fetus via the placenta, the example of the kid eating the peppers would fall into this reasoning being it has an affect on the nutrition and not the fetus reacting to a chemical reaction in its developing brain...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Logged
The Old Man
Alpha Dog
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 806


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2018, 10:30:21 pm »

Goose, I think it is going to take you a looong time to achieve any degree of consistency with your 3 breed  4 strain crosses due to the genetic diversity. You are basically breeding for traits, some breeds breed really strong or dominant for "some traits", for example bulldogs are known for "bite" if you cross bulldog in another breed you will typically but not 100% of the time get rougher dogs with more bite, or say if you crossed bloodhound in them those offspring would typically respond to less or colder scent, BUT when you made one of those crosses even those that did display the traits you were trying to achieve they will also have recessives for the traits not displayed. You mentioned what John Wick did it was similar to what you are proposing, lets call it trait breeding, but he did it within one breed with dogs exhibiting like traits and even at that you said it would take a long time to achieve consistency. To go the trait breeding route with a mix of very different levels of the traits you are after will require keeping most all offspring for evaluation then only mating those that seem to have acquired the desired traits, and over the generations weeding out ALLLLL the recessives you incorporated in the original crosses. I believe you will raise some good F1's and if you cross them back to one of the original pure strains you will do okay but if you attempt to cross the F1's to each other your consistency's will probably go down. No schooling or technical training in this opinion, it is just that an opinion based on watching dogs and livestock through the years.
Logged
Reuben
Internet Hog Hunting Specialist
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9461


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2018, 04:09:16 am »

A short story:

 My grandson was having a birthday party at my house about 12 years ago...one of the kids that showed up was a relative on the other side of the family and he was about 4 years old...all the little kids got to playing outside when my grandson and a few others came running in all excited...they said, Caden is eating peppers from the plant...and I said no way... Caden said Uh huh (yes) like it wasn't a big deal...so I said to go pick a small handful and show me...he goes out and picks green and red Birdseye peppers and comes in and pops them in his mouth and eats them just a crunching away...I said show me, open your mouth and his mouth was red pigmented from the peppers...of course I said no more peppers for you Caden...I couldn't wait for his mama to show up so I could tell her what we saw...

 She shows up and I tell her what happened...she smiled and said they found out about him eating peppers when he was around 2 years old...he just reached from his baby chair and grabbed a jalapeño pepper and started munching...so I asked her if there was an explanation...she said that when she got pregnant with Caden she craved and ate many a jalapeño and it was something she normally wouldn't eat otherwise...but she at the for the duration of her pregnancy...

I started believing back in the early 1980's when a man put out an article...at first I thought the man had lost it...but when he explained it I was a believer...

smoking a cigarette...when we light up and inhale...the smoke and nicotine enter into the lungs where the blood stream picks up the nicotine and then the blood carries the nicotine through your body and into your cells...there are all types of chemical reactions taking place...this can be addictive and that is why some babies are born crack addicts...now lets go to the pregnant gyp...

the momma dog...she is pregnant and running a hog track...she is excited and she is inhaling the hog scent and her blood stream is picking up the hog cells and transporting them...her adrenaline is up and she gets to the bay and is hammering...it is a sow and she catches with the cur dogs and she has hog blood in her mouth and she is fired up...the puppies feel what is happening and they are tied in to he gyp and get their nutrition through her...

you can visualize what could happen with the pups...

at five weeks before feeding throw a fresh hog head in the yard and watch the pups go crazy eating up the neck meat...do this about three times...it is the little details that can make a big difference...

I too once thought this exact same thing but the read about this topic a little more and found out that the umbilical cord houses two arteries and a single large vein, the cord has no nerves so the only way that communication takes place between the mother and the fetus is through the placenta, so anything that may affect the nutrition of the mother will have a direct affect on the fetus, hence the reason baby’s of addicts are born addicts is because of the stimulants entered into the blood stream which is connected to the fetus via the placenta, the example of the kid eating the peppers would fall into this reasoning being it has an affect on the nutrition and not the fetus reacting to a chemical reaction in its developing brain...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I have read the placenta thing...I am one of those guys that does not believe everything I read...however, I read and then think on it and my conclusion can be the same or different from what the research is telling those that have done the research...I have worked with many high powered engineers and I see how many operate and the mistakes they make...an example...they see a problem and they get together and decide what data they need to collect...I see what is to be collected for analysis and quickly realize that it can never be accurately analyzed because there is more data that needs collecting to come up with the right answer or better answer...I see this as normal day in and day out operations...not saying it happens al the time but often enough...

Sometimes I wonder about our average school system....I think our school system is set up for average kids and when we have children that are different they can’t make the grade...

I’ll give an example of a so called “best and brightest”...I think he knew the meaning to every word in the dictionary...he graduated #1 from his chemical engineering class...of course the big company went after him and got him...one day the big company was building a new plant and they recruited many folks to build and run it...they wanted the best mixed in with the most experienced...so he was in charge of the most sofisticated area of the plant and I had to work for him...it was miserable working for the man because he didn’t give the time of day to the uneducated...no people skills and for 4 or 5 years it was a pain to work for him...upper management finally saw he wasn’t working out...he would identify one problem...write code or whatever...implement the change and create other problems...always chasing his tail...
They finally got rid of him and got a new engineer with plenty of common sense and with good people skills and he listened to and respected the workers in that area...and within a few years the plant was running smooth breaking records...learning what is tested is great but many times there are many more answers that can be identified through data for what it was not intended for...

Logged

Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
Reuben
Internet Hog Hunting Specialist
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9461


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2018, 05:40:15 am »

maybe its a good thing...I typed quite a bit of information/thoughts/theories and lost it...sometimes I hate my phone... Undecided

on unborn pups...no matter how we explain it the bottom line is that they are attached to the mother and they cannot live without her support and it is through the blood the majority of nutrition and other components are carried to the pups through the gestation period...chemicals and components that science has not discovered...

it is the same in the big chemical plants...everyone looks at the major components and sometimes it is the small components that no one is looking at that can make the biggest difference and many dismiss them even when talking about it until they actually see it...I call it the things that are not in the books...same for unborn pups...

we are not talking about things that have to be done to have good dogs...these are the smaller details that can help in having better dogs...

one of the things I do is put an old sweaty t-shirt in the puppy house at a few days old and continue for a 3 weeks or so with fresh sweaty ones...I want them to smell me 24/7 and to sleep on top of my shirt...handle them quite a bit and blow my breath in their face etc...maybe it doesn't matter but it matters to me...lol
Logged

Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
Reuben
Internet Hog Hunting Specialist
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9461


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2018, 06:00:43 am »

in my opinion the two hardest things to do in a good breeding program is to find the right dogs to start with as number one issue
number two issue is once we have what we like in our dogs and we think it is time to outcross, what do we outcross with? It is hard because we know there will be things that we might not like but it is very doable...sometime we say now and try again...if it is right then we must introduce this carefully to the bloodline...but you will be good for a while just doing this once...

there is so much to breeding better dogs that we don't know about...so we do what we know what to do...and because we don't know all there is to know...then I live by this on what I don't know...the best defense is a good offense...

breed best to best from a related line of dogs...

the pups...test them and select for natural ability...set up the situations where you see winding finding and trailing and baying style...look for those that take to it like a baby duck takes to water...breeding this way begets more of the same...

do we want to breed dogs that has to be fed many tracks to make a dog? I know I won't...
Logged

Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 7   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!