Breeding Dogs Discussion

[Goose87]

Goose, I think it is going to take you a looong time to achieve any degree of consistency with your 3 breed  4 strain crosses due to the genetic diversity. You are basically breeding for traits, some breeds breed really strong or dominant for "some traits", for example bulldogs are known for "bite" if you cross bulldog in another breed you will typically but not 100% of the time get rougher dogs with more bite, or say if you crossed bloodhound in them those offspring would typically respond to less or colder scent, BUT when you made one of those crosses even those that did display the traits you were trying to achieve they will also have recessives for the traits not displayed. You mentioned what John Wick did it was similar to what you are proposing, lets call it trait breeding, but he did it within one breed with dogs exhibiting like traits and even at that you said it would take a long time to achieve consistency. To go the trait breeding route with a mix of very different levels of the traits you are after will require keeping most all offspring for evaluation then only mating those that seem to have acquired the desired traits, and over the generations weeding out ALLLLL the recessives you incorporated in the original crosses. I believe you will raise some good F1's and if you cross them back to one of the original pure strains you will do okay but if you attempt to cross the F1's to each other your consistency's will probably go down. No schooling or technical training in this opinion, it is just that an opinion based on watching dogs and livestock through the years.

Thanks for your input Mr. Clue, I’ve put a lot of thought into it already about what you mentioned, like I stated earlier the plott/walker cross is a complete shot in the dark, so far it seems to have produced some really gamey pups, now this could change as this experiment progresses but as of now I planning on taking the ones that meet the standards I’m looking for and going back into the pure side on top and bottom,now this is just merely a thought and idea, but in a perfect world I’d like to take the ones that got the stronger noses back to the dames side and the ones that got the mothers speed on track back into more blood from the sires side and maybe keep crossing back and forth within the resulting offspring, like you mentioned there’s plenty of genetic variability there to not have to worry about getting to tight to soon, I don’t have any plans on crossing the f1’s out of the plott/walker and cur/walker anytime in the near future, when I mentioned about crossing the offsprings of the two different original crosses I guess I left out that if that happened it would be in the distant future and that itself is just a speculation at best...

I plan on doing the same types of crossing on the progeny of the cur/walker crosses but the difference here is I know the cur side deep enough to know what recessives to look for that may pop up, this family of curs by no means is perfect in any way but has had hard eyes kept on them for long enough that  most of what was undesirable has been weeded out over the years, way before I got my hands on them, there’s definitely more pros than cons with them, my main and really only issue with them is the line control issue and that itself isn’t that bad of a problem but something id like to improve upon, the walker blood that I crossed over them is the result of many years of hard line breeding and severe culling initially and have resulted in an extremely strong family line of dogs, like I stated above my plans are to keep taking the offspring of these crosses (just the cur/walker)and keep them within each other, I have way more knowledge about what I can expect to see pop up with these particular crosses being as they have more line breeding on top and bottom and I have first hand knowledge of the one side and the gentleman that owns the walker line has had them for quite a while to know what to expect, again this experiment is a just a thought and idea as of now until more litters are made and I will be able to see where it’s going, I’m fortunate enough to have a network of close and like minded hunting buddies that I’m able to send pups to too have them properly tested, so only time will tell, again thanks for your input...


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[Reuben]

Old man...you have lots of experience and knowledge...you should share more for us to learn...especially for the younger generation...no since in them reinventing the wheel starting down towards the bottom where most of us started...but those that really want to learn can just get on the net and read and use what they want or need...I like it when the young guys can tell me how it is done...it just means they are the new up and coming generation of dog men and women...

[bigo]

Here is a fact on inbreeding that I found interesting, if you take two tree dogs from different breeds and cross them and the pups inherent the treeing gene from each parent, you have in effect inbred for treeing. I just used that as an example but anytime you match a gene from each parent for a particular trait, you have inbred for that trait. That's how John Wick did what he did with the coon dogs and why cross's of solid families within the same breed used for the same purpose are successful.

[parker49]

its all opinions til you get this far......

[Goose87]

Reuben, to each his own, I’m certainly no scientist or geneticist, just an ole country boy with an open mind and a love of learning and deep passion for dogs,I do agree that we can’t believe everything we read in books, but also leave most of the scientific and biological speculations and theory’s to those who have the education and background in those respective subjects, it’s easy for us to sit back and theorize about what we “think” about a particular topic based on our own conclusions without doing any of the experimentation or research that others have done already and let our own thoughts and emotions over rule reality and practicality, I do agree that pre-natal nutrition plays a pivotal role in helping a pup reach its full genetic potential, but on the subject of epigenetics, that’s a whole new spectrum of biology that is still in its infancy stages, I could be wrong about this and don’t mean any disrespect to you but I think your looking way to deep into this EG thing, I believe in it and have studied up on it and currently follow it myself and as of now can’t seem to see how it will affect the way we breed dogs on the level that your thinking it will, yes I believe environmental factors influence our lives to an extent that science is just now beginning to uncover but can’t yet grasp the fact that it’s going to influence the outcome of a dogs offspring to the points which you’ve mentioned, such as letting a female bay hogs late in her pregnancy to fire up the pups later in life, or feeding her hog blood during pregnancy to entice the unborn pups to be hog crazy later in life, it’s easy to get ourselves caught up in the thoughts and ideas of the what if’s but at some point we have to use common sense and knowledge, again no disrespect and the reason I stated what I did above was because folks have been doing those exact same things for years now and there has been no factual data to prove it to be nothing more than wives tales, another reason I say that is because what you stated about feeding a pregnant female hog blood and then throwing a hog head to her pups later for the first time and watching how they immediately take to it, that’s just natural born instinct in any canines, I’ve seen it first hand numerous times with the litters I’ve raised and the pups attack it like they’ve eaten meat all their life and the majority were nursing on a mother that had been eating kibble all during her pregnancy and whelping of the pups, I have no scientific data to stand on here but do believe in my opinion that dogs fed a carnivore type diet daily do experience physical changes and mostly have better overall health and longevity of life than those that are fed kibble and seem to have a bit more of a prey drive, maybe the more they’re fed this type of diet the more they start reverting back to their primal instincts on a small scale but not to the point that it makes them viscous killing machines, I can see where your thoughts are in this but factors such as diet influencing genetic make up on the level that your describing based on EG, it seems as if it would take several generations of domesticated dogs being on strictly that type of raw primal diet for their bodies to respond , adapt, and then “change” on the chromosomal and molecular level before there’s any significant real changes in genetic make up in the future offspring and not just sporadically during the course of gestation, and my reasoning behind saying that is because if your theory is true based off EGs and diet playing a big role in this change then we must reverse what we have done already to dogs over the course of many many years by feeding them kibble and changing their diet from what they were biologically designed to process, and by going off of that theory it would seem as if by feeding our dogs kibble we’ve been hindering their performance and production for quite a while now, and judging by the quality and caliber of performance dogs we have today it seems as if some of these speculations based off what we’re taking from the study of EGs contradicts one another , theres way more to it than just feeding a pregnant gyp some hog blood, another reason I’ve said that about your blood theory is the fact that I feed a great deal of deer scraps during the winter time and have fed it to pregnant and nursing females, the pups from those litters weren’t absolutely deer crazy as your suggesting they might be with the hog blood, I believe that there’s still a lot more to be unlocked and uncovered about K9 genetics and do believe that the more that EGs are studied, especially involving it’s affects on dogs the more insight we will have to base our breedings and practices on, as of now there seems to be a whole realm of possibilities that could come from EGs but until the scientific community uncovers more on how it directly affects dogs on broad spectrum, because that topic has only been skimmed over, and no in depth studying done yet, the only things we can do is to keep striving for greatness in our dogs, and as you’ve stated before, keep doing our own unique ways of testing and keeping notes as to what observations were seeing and if there’s any type of patterns, I mean no disrespect to anyone but I feel like the main reason this isn’t a more talked about subject is either a lack of understanding or being afraid of ridicule for stepping outside the box of conventional ways of thinking, either way it’s the ones who sit back and give thought into topics that interest them that drives innovation...


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[Goose87]

its all opinions til you get this far......

You’ve just said it all in a few words Mr. Larry, until the time has been put in and litters produced all a person can do is really speculate as to what maybe...


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[Reuben]

Reuben, to each his own, I’m certainly no scientist or geneticist, just an ole country boy with an open mind and a love of learning and deep passion for dogs,I do agree that we can’t believe everything we read in books, but also leave most of the scientific and biological speculations and theory’s to those who have the education and background in those respective subjects, it’s easy for us to sit back and theorize about what we “think” about a particular topic based on our own conclusions without doing any of the experimentation or research that others have done already and let our own thoughts and emotions over rule reality and practicality, I do agree that pre-natal nutrition plays a pivotal role in helping a pup reach its full genetic potential, but on the subject of epigenetics, that’s a whole new spectrum of biology that is still in its infancy stages, I could be wrong about this and don’t mean any disrespect to you but I think your looking way to deep into this EG thing, I believe in it and have studied up on it and currently follow it myself and as of now can’t seem to see how it will affect the way we breed dogs on the level that your thinking it will, yes I believe environmental factors influence our lives to an extent that science is just now beginning to uncover but can’t yet grasp the fact that it’s going to influence the outcome of a dogs offspring to the points which you’ve mentioned, such as letting a female bay hogs late in her pregnancy to fire up the pups later in life, or feeding her hog blood during pregnancy to entice the unborn pups to be hog crazy later in life, it’s easy to get ourselves caught up in the thoughts and ideas of the what if’s but at some point we have to use common sense and knowledge, again no disrespect and the reason I stated what I did above was because folks have been doing those exact same things for years now and there has been no factual data to prove it to be nothing more than wives tales, another reason I say that is because what you stated about feeding a pregnant female hog blood and then throwing a hog head to her pups later for the first time and watching how they immediately take to it, that’s just natural born instinct in any canines, I’ve seen it first hand numerous times with the litters I’ve raised and the pups attack it like they’ve eaten meat all their life and the majority were nursing on a mother that had been eating kibble all during her pregnancy and whelping of the pups, I have no scientific data to stand on here but do believe in my opinion that dogs fed a carnivore type diet daily do experience physical changes and mostly have better overall health and longevity of life than those that are fed kibble and seem to have a bit more of a prey drive, maybe the more they’re fed this type of diet the more they start reverting back to their primal instincts on a small scale but not to the point that it makes them viscous killing machines, I can see where your thoughts are in this but factors such as diet influencing genetic make up on the level that your describing based on EG, it seems as if it would take several generations of domesticated dogs being on strictly that type of raw primal diet for their bodies to respond , adapt, and then “change” on the chromosomal and molecular level before there’s any significant real changes in genetic make up in the future offspring and not just sporadically during the course of gestation, and my reasoning behind saying that is because if your theory is true based off EGs and diet playing a big role in this change then we must reverse what we have done already to dogs over the course of many many years by feeding them kibble and changing their diet from what they were biologically designed to process, and by going off of that theory it would seem as if by feeding our dogs kibble we’ve been hindering their performance and production for quite a while now, and judging by the quality and caliber of performance dogs we have today it seems as if some of these speculations based off what we’re taking from the study of EGs contradicts one another , theres way more to it than just feeding a pregnant gyp some hog blood, another reason I’ve said that about your blood theory is the fact that I feed a great deal of deer scraps during the winter time and have fed it to pregnant and nursing females, the pups from those litters weren’t absolutely deer crazy as your suggesting they might be with the hog blood, I believe that there’s still a lot more to be unlocked and uncovered about K9 genetics and do believe that the more that EGs are studied, especially involving it’s affects on dogs the more insight we will have to base our breedings and practices on, as of now there seems to be a whole realm of possibilities that could come from EGs but until the scientific community uncovers more on how it directly affects dogs on broad spectrum, because that topic has only been skimmed over, and no in depth studying done yet, the only things we can do is to keep striving for greatness in our dogs, and as you’ve stated before, keep doing our own unique ways of testing and keeping notes as to what observations were seeing and if there’s any type of patterns, I mean no disrespect to anyone but I feel like the main reason this isn’t a more talked about subject is either a lack of understanding or being afraid of ridicule for stepping outside the box of conventional ways of thinking, either way it’s the ones who sit back and give thought into topics that interest them that drives innovation...


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Goose...here is the thing...you criticize me for my theories and beliefs and it seems you downplay what I am saying and you write as if your way is the right way...I am a student of breeding better dogs myself...working dogs...what you talk about I have already been there and basically I agree with what you write about...just because I have moved to a different level does not mean it is not worthy of discussion...perhaps one day when it is better understood you will be the expert to be discussing this new level of understanding...

I have bred dogs at one time when I really thought I knew what I was doing...then in my upper 20's I realized that I needed to develop a better plan and then bred dogs for 7 generations and I can tell you this...I left no stone unturned in trying to create the best hog dog possible...while the dogs were not as good as I wanted I knew they would look good in any company...good dogs don't have bad days...

[Semmes]

This thread has been a good read so far.
 
But this post and the assumptions made in it I respectfully disagree with....

Years ago I went to see a man about something I do not remember about what. What I do remember is that he had a dog in his back yard that looked like one bad to the bone pitbull with a lab type head...I asked him what breed and he said half lab and half English bulldog...he also said she raised ten pups and all looked mostly like lab types except this one...

 This was puzzling to me at first, and my final theory that made since me was this...The English bulldog gene pool deviates so much away from normal that it can not reproduce itself consistently when bred outside the English bulldog breed. We all know that the dog can barely breathe and needs air conditioning to survive the summer heat and most always the females deliver by C-section...it seems to me that quite a bit of the English bulldog exaggerated traits must be recessives...
 It seems to me that some of that theory applies to the once in a lifetime dog because the deviate so much from the norm...we can use one of the greatest racehorses of all time as an example...Secretariet never reproduced himself...

The English bulldog and it’s genetic mutations are extremely proponent when bred on.
Esp when and if line crossed back to the original EB mix...
I could cite examples or many, many breeds that have been developed or transformed by EB blood being added. Some breeds fight the EB gene malfunctions line bred upon 10, 20 30 genes down the road after the cross. The casual observance of one F-1 litter (lab xEb) is no way to judge the genetic proponence of the two breeds crossed.
Esp, when words like ‘mostly’ are used in describing actual phenotypical variance. And , I’m such a casual way...
Did the litter on average have smaller teeth?
We’re they undershot, wry or even bit?
Shape of head? Was it rounder?
Eye shape?
Length of back? Was it shorter? Was it roached?
Breadth of chest?
Temperament?
Hips?
The EB is extremely proponent precisely because of a lot of things touched on in this thread...
It was tightly inbred for many generations for the abnormalities the breed possess.
Therefore it is proponent to throw Those same abnormalities when crossed on.

[Goose87]

https://pethelpful.com/dogs/How-New-Genetic-Research-May-Help-You-Pick-Your-Next-Performance-Pup

Not criticizing you at all Reuben just being a realist, your flipping over imaginary stones my friend and convincing yourself that something is one thing when in the real world of things it’s something totally different...


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[Reuben]

This thread has been a good read so far.
 
But this post and the assumptions made in it I respectfully disagree with....

Years ago I went to see a man about something I do not remember about what. What I do remember is that he had a dog in his back yard that looked like one bad to the bone pitbull with a lab type head...I asked him what breed and he said half lab and half English bulldog...he also said she raised ten pups and all looked mostly like lab types except this one...

 This was puzzling to me at first, and my final theory that made since me was this...The English bulldog gene pool deviates so much away from normal that it can not reproduce itself consistently when bred outside the English bulldog breed. We all know that the dog can barely breathe and needs air conditioning to survive the summer heat and most always the females deliver by C-section...it seems to me that quite a bit of the English bulldog exaggerated traits must be recessives...
 It seems to me that some of that theory applies to the once in a lifetime dog because the deviate so much from the norm...we can use one of the greatest racehorses of all time as an example...Secretariet never reproduced himself...

The English bulldog and it’s genetic mutations are extremely proponent when bred on.
Esp when and if line crossed back to the original EB mix...
I could cite examples or many, many breeds that have been developed or transformed by EB blood being added. Some breeds fight the EB gene malfunctions line bred upon 10, 20 30 genes down the road after the cross. The casual observance of one F-1 litter (lab xEb) is no way to judge the genetic proponence of the two breeds crossed.
Esp, when words like ‘mostly’ are used in describing actual phenotypical variance. And , I’m such a casual way...
Did the litter on average have smaller teeth?
We’re they undershot, wry or even bit?
Shape of head? Was it rounder?
Eye shape?
Length of back? Was it shorter? Was it roached?
Breadth of chest?
Temperament?
Hips?
The EB is extremely proponent precisely because of a lot of things touched on in this thread...
It was tightly inbred for many generations for the abnormalities the breed possess.
Therefore it is proponent to throw Those same abnormalities when crossed on.

Semmes glad to see you are posting...you bring up some good questions and information...I do not have any proof of any kind on what I saw just an observation...actually there was no way to get close to that dog in that short period I was there on account he was very aggressive...my observation was that and me being a shade tree theorist by nature I had to reason out what I observed...

my questions theories went like this...if the other nine pups looked like a lab and only one looked somewhat like a bull dog then how could that be?

the genetics for the bulldog to be so under short...can hardly breath...can't take the heat and needs assistance to have a litter (C-section) then why is it that none of the pups favor the bulldog except one which really looked like a pitbull? My answer to this is because...I" finish later on account I have to leave for a while...

[Judge peel]

I don’t think a dog in spirt is to far removed from the wild just as we aren’t from the warriors code. Many people fight join the service play sports to meet that inside our selfs. A dog can be like a wolf very easy it’s called hunger don’t need generations of raw meat back in its diet lol. I agree with Goose most of that stuff is hog wash. I just don’t believe must of that makes any difference on a scale that you can see. Just my opinion


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[Reuben]

I don’t think a dog in spirt is to far removed from the wild just as we aren’t from the warriors code. Many people fight join the service play sports to meet that inside our selfs. A dog can be like a wolf very easy it’s called hunger don’t need generations of raw meat back in its diet lol. I agree with Goose most of that stuff is hog wash. I just don’t believe must of that makes any difference on a scale that you can see. Just my opinion


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I don't think it is hogwash at all judge...but in the grand scheme of things it doesn't make much difference...but having a better understanding as to how things work is very interesting to me...

[The Old Man]

The 2 greatest tools for breeding are selection, and culling that's the only way to develop or enhance inherent traits. Far and above what you feed them, if you tickle their feet as baby puppies, let them find weeneys, do mock hunts or whatever. Give them a place to sleep, something to eat, select BALANCED dogs to breed, provide them transportation to the job at an APPROPRIATE age and opportunity to do their job, HONESTLY assess their skills, CULL "not trade, give away, or sell" those that do not have the skills to do the job with consistency by THEMSELVES.
 When I think or read about breeding dogs I always think of coyotes, with the exception of the rare dog or wolf cross they are always bred within the breed and very likely related family, they are ruthlessly culled by mother nature, removed from the gene pool if found lacking, and they breed extremely strong and consistent for their job. I only wish I could breed dogs as consistently as nature does coyotes because  I am a very poor trainer in fact the only thing I ever teach one is what not to do, they have to be born with the instincts of what to do, if I was able to teach one to do something with any efficiency I would not expect the dog to be able to reproduce that trait.
I have had the good fortune to have known and been affiliated with a couple or three top breeders of much notoriety in a couple of different breeds and the thing they all had in common were-seeing the truth about their dog, never begged one to function or made excuses for it, didn't wait long on the decision and would without hesitation dispose of one that wasn't making the cut. Those guys raised dogs that a high percentage of pups made good dogs that started reasonably early, in fact the biggest problem with that kind of pup is keeping them from doing something rather than getting them to do something.
  A very famous breeder once told me bear dogs were the easiest working dogs to breed, I asked what do you mean, his response was that those with more guts than brains the bears kill, those that quit or don't finish races I kill that only leaves me the good ones to breed. That really simplified things in my mind and rings very true much like the coyotes hahaha.

[Reuben]

This thread has been a good read so far.
 
But this post and the assumptions made in it I respectfully disagree with....

Years ago I went to see a man about something I do not remember about what. What I do remember is that he had a dog in his back yard that looked like one bad to the bone pitbull with a lab type head...I asked him what breed and he said half lab and half English bulldog...he also said she raised ten pups and all looked mostly like lab types except this one...

 This was puzzling to me at first, and my final theory that made since me was this...The English bulldog gene pool deviates so much away from normal that it can not reproduce itself consistently when bred outside the English bulldog breed. We all know that the dog can barely breathe and needs air conditioning to survive the summer heat and most always the females deliver by C-section...it seems to me that quite a bit of the English bulldog exaggerated traits must be recessives...
 It seems to me that some of that theory applies to the once in a lifetime dog because the deviate so much from the norm...we can use one of the greatest racehorses of all time as an example...Secretariet never reproduced himself...

The English bulldog and it’s genetic mutations are extremely proponent when bred on.
Esp when and if line crossed back to the original EB mix...
I could cite examples or many, many breeds that have been developed or transformed by EB blood being added. Some breeds fight the EB gene malfunctions line bred upon 10, 20 30 genes down the road after the cross. The casual observance of one F-1 litter (lab xEb) is no way to judge the genetic proponence of the two breeds crossed.
Esp, when words like ‘mostly’ are used in describing actual phenotypical variance. And , I’m such a casual way...
Did the litter on average have smaller teeth?
We’re they undershot, wry or even bit?
Shape of head? Was it rounder?
Eye shape?
Length of back? Was it shorter? Was it roached?
Breadth of chest?
Temperament?
Hips?
The EB is extremely proponent precisely because of a lot of things touched on in this thread...
It was tightly inbred for many generations for the abnormalities the breed possess.
Therefore it is proponent to throw Those same abnormalities when crossed on.

Semmes glad to see you are posting...you bring up some good questions and information...I do not have any proof of any kind on what I saw just an observation...actually there was no way to get close to that dog in that short period I was there on account he was very aggressive...my observation was that and me being a shade tree theorist by nature I had to reason out what I observed...

my questions theories went like this...if the other nine pups looked like a lab and only one looked somewhat like a bull dog then how could that be?

the genetics for the bulldog to be so under short...can hardly breath...can't take the heat and needs assistance to have a litter (C-section) then why is it that none of the pups favor the bulldog except one which really looked like a pitbull? My answer to this is because...I" finish later on account I have to leave for a while...

so why did the pups not favor the English bulldog phenotypically? Like I already mentioned before...the majority of the genes/traits that make up an English bulldog phenotypically have to be recessive...so when bred to the lab the dominant traits of the lab are displayed simply because they are dominant...recessive traits have to pair up one from the sire and one from the dam...if two recessives fair up for the color yellow then the pup will be yellow...if a black pairs up with yellow the pup will be yellow and so on...I am quick to develop a theory based on my past experience and what I see before my eyes...but I am quick to revise or change directions once I have been corrected and that does happen from time to time...

Semmes...if you don't mind explain and correct where I am wrong and explain the prepotency...as you can see I have my opinion and based on what you said I could be way off base...thanks

in my mind the bulldog is a breed that is desirable for fixing certain traits in other breeds...is it prepotency...my thoughts are no...instead the opposite is true...yes I am sure that they do carry many dominant traits...but I do know that know one in there right mind would like to breed undershot dogs that cant take the heat and worse yet not able to have pups without a C-section...

Semmes...

many years ago the racing greyhound became too timid to even race...a geneticist was hired to see what could be done to fix the problem...after some research he discovered that the English bulldog was the answer to the timid issue...as a youngster that sure didn't sound right to me at the time I was reading the article...the geneticist said that by the 4th generation the dogs should be almost pure greyhounds...he was wrong in that the f1 cross was almost pure greyhound phenotypically and the dogs were inheriting the fearless traits...

[Reuben]

The 2 greatest tools for breeding are selection, and culling that's the only way to develop or enhance inherent traits. Far and above what you feed them, if you tickle their feet as baby puppies, let them find weeneys, do mock hunts or whatever. Give them a place to sleep, something to eat, select BALANCED dogs to breed, provide them transportation to the job at an APPROPRIATE age and opportunity to do their job, HONESTLY assess their skills, CULL "not trade, give away, or sell" those that do not have the skills to do the job with consistency by THEMSELVES.
 When I think or read about breeding dogs I always think of coyotes, with the exception of the rare dog or wolf cross they are always bred within the breed and very likely related family, they are ruthlessly culled by mother nature, removed from the gene pool if found lacking, and they breed extremely strong and consistent for their job. I only wish I could breed dogs as consistently as nature does coyotes because  I am a very poor trainer in fact the only thing I ever teach one is what not to do, they have to be born with the instincts of what to do, if I was able to teach one to do something with any efficiency I would not expect the dog to be able to reproduce that trait.
I have had the good fortune to have known and been affiliated with a couple or three top breeders of much notoriety in a couple of different breeds and the thing they all had in common were-seeing the truth about their dog, never begged one to function or made excuses for it, didn't wait long on the decision and would without hesitation dispose of one that wasn't making the cut. Those guys raised dogs that a high percentage of pups made good dogs that started reasonably early, in fact the biggest problem with that kind of pup is keeping them from doing something rather than getting them to do something.
  A very famous breeder once told me bear dogs were the easiest working dogs to breed, I asked what do you mean, his response was that those with more guts than brains the bears kill, those that quit or don't finish races I kill that only leaves me the good ones to breed. That really simplified things in my mind and rings very true much like the coyotes hahaha.

old man...10-4 on everything you said including the coyote...the coyote is in my plan to be my next controversial thread...I strongly believe that the reason for so many culls is not having the ability to see the real truth...

[Judge peel]

Well there is worse was to spend your time


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[Judge peel]

The only truth is the truth you believe


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[Semmes]

The bit about recessive traits pairing up Reuben....don’t you see it...I said it earlier.
When those traits pair up the recessive traits become fixed and can dominate.
Your F1 cross example is anecdotal at best as preponents is concerned on English bulldog crosses.
Abs when I typed about the things that could have been introduced I failed to mention the cork screw or kinked tail. Of those traits I was referencing what the other littermates with the ‘lab type’ exhibited.
You did not see them, you went by the word of the guy in your example. You did not look at the neuainces of how the lab type was changed. Instead you go on the word of that particular Breeder. Of that I can only imagine the breeding was an accident or a these are my two favorite dogs per type cross. After all it couldn’t be a working dog cross...
what could the eb add to the lab for retrieveing? What could the lab add to the eb for bulldoggedness?
The eb tho a physical shell of it former self retains exception protection instincts and pain tolerance and steadfast fighting will...it was just ruined by human conformational breeders.
Your example of the dog you did see holds true to my assertion.
You could not approach the dog.
This is not a real pit bulldog trait. ....maybe a ‘pet bulldog’ trait. But pit bulldogs were bred to be handled by man in the capacity of their working duties. English stafffs were called the nanny dog.
Now maybe against fur it would be a dif story whether it be other dogs rodents cattle or hogs.
But the real protection instincts come from the bulldog. In the AB the best suited dogs for protection are the he more EB influenced dogs...
I’ll leave you with this to ponder...
DDB
BM
AB
OEB
BM
EBT
Bully pit
Etc....etc...
I could go on and add links for proof if you choose but work comes early.
I could show you in peds how legitimate admitted EB crosses effect the gene pool of breeds for 10’s of generations once line bred upon. I have experienced it personally.
If that ain’t more proof of proponence  than your observation of on dog from a litter of eight that you did not personally examine then I don’t know what I can tell ya  

[Semmes]

The racing greyhound had Pitbull added...the fighting style Pitbull
The Malinois is a shepherd Pitbull cross..
Both these things are varifiable on old pedigrees
These were game bred, dog fighting dog, type dogs...
Which are themselves derived from the original EB before they were bred into physical ruin.
...that EB was crossed into greyhounds is disenginuene...

[Semmes]

Terrier influenced bulldogs are pit bulls. Pug influenced bulldogs are the modern EB
The origin is  elsewhere...
Boxers
Danes
Mastif
I could go on and on
All created by bulldog influence