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Author Topic: More on Epigenetics  (Read 1260 times)
Reuben
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« on: May 14, 2019, 10:37:05 pm »

When I was a young man I had come home from the bar...I continued partying...I drank down a 3/4 bottle of tequila which tasted just like a margarita tastes...the hangover was terrible the next day...almost 50 years later I still can’t stand the taste or smell of tequila or margaritas...

Thinking outside the box and common sense thinking...

I will give an example of a personal theory of mine...
I have my pups perform this task at least twice as young pups in hopes that in the near future it will trigger a positive response from them in the bay pen...hoping the response is triggered from their subconscious minds because of feeding on fresh wild pork as detailed below...

When the pups are around 5 weeks old I throw a fresh hog head in the yard... I then turn the pups out and it won’t be long they will all be gathered eating fresh wild hog meat...
There is two things I do to make this a pleasant experience for them...first I make sure that they are very hungry...this will make them really want pork...that is exactly the response I want and get from them...if I had fed them their regular ration first more than likely I will not get the response I want because they won’t be hungry...

Second... I will remove the hog head before they overeat... I want them wanting more... during feeding time is a good time to discourage aggressive behavior as well...this isn’t in the books and isn’t proven...just good ole common sense thinking...

Epigenetics is not new...it is a better understanding of how dna, genetics, and cells work together through environmental manipulation created on purpose or through natural occurrence...because of this better understanding scientist will be able to change how many diseases will be treated or cured amongst many other uses that will be discovered over time...many scientists are getting on the wagon now...

Over time we will be able to do things on purpose to achieve certain results we want for our children by changing the environment whether it is through nutrition or in other ways...

More than likely there are very simple things we can do now that will help in having pups that turn on sooner than later as well as having a higher percentage of pups that make the cut...and hopefully having less culls...I have my ideas as to some of these things are but I cannot say if it will work for sure but I believe...

Below I copied from an Epigenetics website...


Fear conditioning

Studies on mice have shown that certain conditional fears can be inherited from either parent. In one example, mice were conditioned to fear a strong scent, acetophenone, by accompanying the smell with an electric shock. Consequently, the mice learned to fear the scent of acetophenone alone. It was discovered that this fear could be passed down to the mice offspring. Despite the offspring never experiencing the electric shock themselves the mice still displayed a fear of the acetophenone scent, because they inherited the fear epigenetically by site-specific  DNA methylation. These epigenetic changes lasted up to two generations without reintroducing the shock.[144]

Nurture   

Inheritance of specific genes or traits can be learned instead of being biologically passed on from parent to off spring. This gives light to the fact that continuous repetition of a specific action throughout generation can become instinctual indication that the action has become part of their nature or DNA. Study shows that rat pups that had little to no interaction with their mother caused them to grow and do the same with their offspring creating and reprogramming the rat's DNA with an epigenetic marker to be impartial parents.

There was another study with mice...

When the sire of the pups was exposed to cold temperatures for a certain length of time the offspring were born with a higher metabolism than normal...the offspring lived a longer and healthier life on account they didn’t have to fight all the negatives that are connected with obesity...

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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
Reuben
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« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2019, 10:44:05 pm »

The true and accurate scientific data will be for the betterment of mankind...I don’t expect much priority will be placed for improvement in dogs but some of this is pretty simple and anyone can experiment with some of the learnings already proven...some of the things we probably already do...or can do with logical thinking...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
Austesus
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« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2019, 08:09:35 am »

I’m glad you posted this Reuben, I was actually just about to start digging through all the older posts about puppies. I have my first litter on the ground right now, they will be 4 weeks old on Saturday. This was a cross that my mentor planned and wanted to make, and now he has decided to get out of raising and training dogs to spend more time with his family. The sire is a dog that I own, that he bred. The dam was his dog, he gave her to my while she was pregnant after he made his decision.

Originally I was not going to keep any of the litter because the cross is not the direction I want to take my dogs. The dogs will be gritty, but probably not as rough as I like. And they are probably going to be open on track. Both parents are papered ladners. Well after messing with the puppies every day and being a sucker for pups, I have decided to keep a few of them to see how they turn out. The grandfather is a superstar and a very proven producer, so they have good blood behind them.

This will be my first time having puppies since I first started with my two Ladner pups. I would like to do some of the test you’ve mentioned before to determine which pups I want to keep instead of just going by looks like I want to lol.

 I know you have mentioned throwing bits of liver out and letting the pups wind them, at what age are you doing this? Are you throwing them out before letting the pups out of the pen? Or are you letting them run loose and throwing them around them? With the hog head, sometimes I may go weeks between killing a pig, would meat, hide, ears, and feet work in place of a head? I always have that stuff frozen for feeding dogs after a hunt or for random snacks.

I’m about to be spending a lot of time working pups. I was given the opportunity to get some pups out of great dogs from a man on here, and will be driving to Texas to pick them up this weekend. I won’t put his name on here without his approval, he might not want people harassing him for puppies. But he was kind enough to give me the opportunity to own two pups off an awesome family of dogs. They will cast, so I’m going to train them without the help of any older dogs. All my dogs hang too close and will bring them back. I’m going to read through all the old posts about mock hunts and I’m going to spend a lot of time working on casting them and teaching them to wind/rig from the box or boat. This is going to completely change my style of hunting, so I’m going to have to learn myself as I go.


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Reuben
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« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2019, 11:56:06 am »

It is fun exposing pups to different conditions and watching them work...we get to see who does what and that gives us an idea as to what these pups might be one day...I keep it simple...nothing complicated at all.. I always put them through these situations when they are hungry...I first teach them to like the pieces of meat whether liver or chicken etc...I do this while they are kenneled up...just enough for a good taste and the idea is in getting them to really like it and look forward to them...after about the third time (once a day) I let them smell the tidbits and then I go and scatter in a 30 ft area or so... I do this upwind from them so they can smell what is in the wind currents...observe pups on who does what and remember...I look for the naturals...if your lucky one or two will be focused on the wind currents...open the gate and sic them on...see which ones go to it with the least encouragement...encourage as needed and watch who circles and finds the most...usually the best finders at this age will grow up to be the best finders...the Ladner pups should really be good at this...I do this exercise 5 or six times...as they get older I scatter in a larger area...

On a hog head I think it is best but most any part of a hog should do the same...
You can train them to gunfire by 10-12 weeks...you can see which ones will naturally range out...
You can break them off of deer by 5 or 6 months...
Just let your imagination be your guide...

Try to breed for natural abilities, the pups that need the least amount of training or exposure...breeding those types begets more of the same...of course there is more to producing better dogs but this is a major part of it as well...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
Austesus
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« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2019, 01:24:33 pm »

Reuben, at what age do you begin to scatter the bits of food?


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Reuben
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« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2019, 04:49:09 pm »

Around 7 or 8 weeks...after 3 or 4 times you will see the same pup or pups that consistently do better...and at 3 and 4 months I repeat process a few times but make it harder...I scatter them further apart so they have to range out further...if the wind is blowing they will use their nose...sometimes you will see a pup or hat is smart enough to circle downwind and work into the wind naturally...I think the pups are learning how to work the wind to locate...and I am learning how they think and operate...just fun and games...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
Northstar
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« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2019, 08:59:28 am »

Reuben - Great read.

 I like to read old east German puppy test and books the testing they do is intense and starts almost at birth. I have not spent time looking but I am sure you can find it on the internet.
I would even be open to some book swaps on books on genetics ect if anyone has any old stuff. I like reading and listening to my old Pitbull breeders on how to put a pedigree together In my opinion they put a performance animal together better than any others but also greyhound breeders have some awesome practices.

The metabolism theory I don’t believe to be true being that I use to swap dogs from Minnesota winters to Missouri often and never witnessed this. In fact I myself have put on a lot of Whats up or Whatever? gut since moving from Minnesota in the winter to Texas.... oh that is the tacos  laugh
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Reuben
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« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2019, 09:59:23 am »

Northstar...years ago I read a well written article about breeding, raising and testing pups and dogs and it seems this method was from east Germany as well...it was pretty radical and probably an article like that nowadays would never make it in a modern magazine or book in our part of the world...regardless it changed how trained and tested...

For me it is more about testing for natural ability first...we can train repetitively until a pup or dog gets it...and we can feed them lots of tracks until they get it...but why go that route when we can choose pups that are born with the instinctive inclination...to catch on easily without without extensive repetitive training...

We should do our best in picking those pups who just need a little guidance as to what we want from them...the rest should be easy as long as we do the right things at the right times...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
warrent423
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« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2019, 02:18:44 pm »

Piss on the East Germans. Breed best to best. Keep the best and cull the rest Grin
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Northstar
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« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2019, 04:03:09 pm »

Reuben - Great read.

 I like to read old east German puppy test and books the testing they do is intense and starts almost at birth. I have not spent time looking but I am sure you can find it on the internet.
I would even be open to some book swaps on books on genetics ect if anyone has any old stuff. I like reading and listening to my old Pitbull breeders on how to put a pedigree together In my opinion they put a performance animal together better than any others but also greyhound breeders have some awesome practices.

The metabolism theory I don’t believe to be true being that I use to swap dogs from Minnesota winters to Missouri often and never witnessed this. In fact I myself have put on a lot of wieght on? gut since moving from Minnesota in the winter to Texas.... oh that is the tacos  laugh

I think it is time to try this taptalk.


 What I have learned is that a pup will hint to what it is going to be no matter how much time you invest. The cream rises to the top in the field.

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Reuben
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« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2019, 08:33:54 pm »

Yes...the cream rises to the top...but as you probably already know...the right pup in the wrong hands and the pup can be ruined...and in the right hands he can become an outstanding hunting dog...

I did say that selecting for natural ability should be what we breed and select for as best we can...and I also said that these type of pups shouldn’t need a lot of training because the natural traits (instincts) are there as we tested...however, hunting these pups on a regular basis will only make them better with the proper handling...I thought maybe I needed to make myself clear on account some folks are quick to point out what wasn’t said or even twist it to make it mean something else...sometimes I tend to leave out some things that I consider common knowledge to shorten what I am writing and that can lead to misunderstanding of what I am saying...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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