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Black Streak
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« on: July 24, 2019, 03:16:58 pm »

Had several chickens disapear over the last couple weeks and also noticed some of my big chunks of dog food I have thrown out for the dogs such as a full rib cage will be gone with drag marks left behind leading off into the neighborhood.    Over the past few years I've shot a few coyotes between the house and the dog pen but it's hard to wake up to the dogs barking and see one and get a clear shot on one out of the kitchen window while holding a light on them.  Easy to see them for a second but hard to put it all together and kill one at night in just a few seconds when your woke in the middle of the night by your dogs.     So I reverted back to my trapping days and dusted of a couple traps and made up a little bait and scent attraction to do the job till my order of gland lure and urine come in to do it proper.    Has this waiting on me this morning.     As you can see they are coming right up to the dog pens and know just how far out of reach is when the dogs are on the chains.   

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TheRednose
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« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2019, 04:36:33 pm »

Yeah they get pretty ballsy like that, they are so smart sometimes too smart for their own good like this time.
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Black Streak
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« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2019, 06:08:07 pm »

Yeah they get pretty ballsy like that, they are so smart sometimes too smart for their own good like this time.



     I have contemplated for years trapping them like this around the dog pen but have choose just to shoot them instead on count of so many of the town dogs running around loose.    Usually I kill one and I'm good for about 5 or 6 months.   I got word that a property 1/2 mile directly behind my house sold that was being used as a dump for hog carcuses by a killing station.   They had to come up with a different area to get rid of the unwanted waste.   So I speculated the coyotes would hit my place a little harder than they have in years past and really start hammering the chickens.    Sure enough they have made such a showing around here that I had to escalate my efforts of controlling the predation.    I figure I'll let the chickens back out to free range after I have taken about 3 more in quick succession.     The proper supplies should be in by tomorrow which will help get that foot on the pan
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t-dog
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« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2019, 12:24:42 pm »

Aggravating suckers! My dad has been trying to get one himself. That rascal has been eating lots of chicken too.

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Goose87
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« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2019, 06:00:01 am »

We are INFESTED with the around here, but yet the deer hunters want to focus on eradicating the hogs bc they eat their “deer corn”, they should be focused on what’s actually eating the d@mn deer instead, when I was a young boy just me and my dad would go by ourselves with just our beagles and kill a dozen rabbits easily in a few hours time, fast forward 20 years and if you take a good group around here with different sets of dogs you’ll have a dang good hunt if everybody can scrape together a dozen rabbits, they are unreal around here and they’re so smart, when they did away with the running of fox hounds around here they don’t have a natural enemy anymore and the fox/coyote pens are few and far between now so there’s really no market or good incentive to trap them other than the enjoyment of it...
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Black Streak
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« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2019, 08:32:12 pm »

We are INFESTED with the around here, but yet the deer hunters want to focus on eradicating the hogs bc they eat their “deer corn”, they should be focused on what’s actually eating the d@mn deer instead, when I was a young boy just me and my dad would go by ourselves with just our beagles and kill a dozen rabbits easily in a few hours time, fast forward 20 years and if you take a good group around here with different sets of dogs you’ll have a dang good hunt if everybody can scrape together a dozen rabbits, they are unreal around here and they’re so smart, when they did away with the running of fox hounds around here they don’t have a natural enemy anymore and the fox/coyote pens are few and far between now so there’s really no market or good incentive to trap them other than the enjoyment of it...



   Yeah only the cats and coons were worth skinning back when I was growing up and into that stuff for a buck and a hobby.     Was a skill I enjoyed honing though.  My favorite thing to trap was the coyote despite being basically worthless.  I don't remember the the fur buyers that come through here even considering a coyote hide but I spent more time and and enjoyed trapping coyotes more than anything when I finally made the effort to learn how to get them.     
              In the last 5 years I have seen weird rapid cycles in certain animal species.      First it was the rats.     Rats where so thick in the pastures and the ditches that you couldn't keep a pig trap baited with corn hardly more than 2 days at a time for the rats sterling all the feed.   The fish cranes stopped catching fish and started catching rats.   You would see them in the bar ditches and in the pastures.   My friend told me he seen one eating a rat.    I got to paying attention to them and  That's what the blue herrings / fish cranes were doing in the ditches and in the pastures.   They had turned to hunting and catching rats because of the enormous explosion increase in the rat population.   Really lasted about 2 years.      Then the quail did the same thing.  One year there were a few quail then all the sudden quail where everywhere like when I was a kid.   That lasted about 1 1/2 years then down to Harley any again.    About that same time the jackrabbits exploded.   Hundreds of them on fields.   I remember my mother telling me how her dad my grandad and his friends and the family would  drive around at night with a light shooting them out of the back of a truck and just loading the bed down with them.    That's what it was like again a few years ago here.    It was a plague of jackrabbits for a couple years here.   My whole life in never seen more than the occasional jackrabbit till close to that time.    Then the bullfrog population exploded about the same time.    So many frogs  we had frog leg fries at deer camp a few times a year that fed our camp and 2 camps and still had an abundant amount of frogs on each tank.    This lasted at its peak for 2 years but we still have a good many frogs 4 years into it.       Now I'm seeing crawfish coming back.   You can find them in almost any standing water and see a lot of little mud mounds in the barditches where there was standing water for some time.         I hadn't seen crawfish like this since I was a kid and this is the first sign of increase for them so I'm hopping they continue to increase.               There are some crazy cycles in animal populations that I've seen in the past 5 years.    Short cycles but in most cases in such magnitudes and abundance that I've never experienced and then they drop off drastically.    You might think predators had a lot to do with the drastic decline of them but I don't think so.   Only in the case of the rats did I see animals shift their focus to them like the fish cranes and that wasn't enough to turn the hides even remotly.     There was an increase in coyotes following the rat explosion but not enough to whipe them out so quickly back to normal sustained population.    The quail where everywhere for 1 1/2 years and then late summer early fall it was as if in 1 month the population went back to almost nothing.              The decline of these mass  population explosions isn't from predators.    I'm sure fire ants play havoc on hatchiling quail but they don't mature birds surely.    Plus how where they able to explode in number like that in the first place if the fire ants are the big culprit in the almost extinction of the quail population around here.                   
      When I was a kid growing up on a large cattle ranch, burning pastures every other year or 2 was normal around here.     Now for 25 years that practice is almost none existent and the habitat has changed because of it.    We have had a lot of rain over the past 4  to 6 years.  Record rain on top of record but these cycles all happened amongst the start of all this rain that started 4 to 5 years ago.   So could the rain be a reason for the population explosions? I think maybe because I've not seen such dramatic explosion in population like this ever but the rain hasn't went away but the populations have to a large extent.    In the case of the jackrabbits and frogs they are still fairly abundant if you really look hard but they have sure been cut back compared to what they were.  Quail of few and far between, rats are at a normal level.   Crawfish are on big increase.     
      Have you noticed in your area these same dramatic population fluctuations or encountered additional ones or seen anything  remotly similar over the last several like this?
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Reuben
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« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2019, 06:09:11 am »

Good observations...I too have tried to figure out what has happened to the quail...easy to figure here my area...loss of habitat is the main reason...

But down in the freer area I have seen years where quail are everywhere and then gone...so I really don’t know what happens but I develop theories as to what could be happening...I have thought it to be fire ants to an extent but think mainly rats for two reasons...the first is they eat baby quail and probably mature quail if given the opportunity.... I also have thought that most of the time most folks will kill a rattlesnake anytime they see one and then we have the rattlesnake roundups so a reduced number of snakes makes logical sense that rat population goes up and quail population goes down...I am not saying that is the reason just trying to figure out what is really causing the issues...

Back as a kid we had lots of trouble with rats eating our baby chicks...what they liked more than anything was to kill them for their food pouches predigested food which was mainly Purinas baby chicken feed...

Reason #2...rats love grain so any wild grain and seed...the rats are competing with the quail on food grain supplies...thus less quail...again my personal theories without any real facts to back it up...
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Goose87
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« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2019, 07:39:31 am »

Mother Nature always finds away to proliferate and once an area reaches its maximum carrying capacity then something happens to bump whatever species back down to sustainable numbers, now man has a lot to do with this with our interference and manipulation of the land for our use, we’re goin through rapid decline in wild turkeys around here, used to be nothing to see flocks of 15-30 on regular basis, they would come in and wreak havoc on deer hunters corn piles and feeders, now they are all but gone, we have a 13k acre lease that we cut all turkey hunting out for two years to try to build the numbers up, of course the hogs are the first to get the blame bc they’re the easiest to point the finger at, yes I’m sure some nest are raided by hogs but the majority of them are being raided by coons, the deer hunters want to stay at home all but during hunting season and come then they will have the woods singing with automatic feeders going off but don’t want a dog around their feeders bc they don’t want to run the deer off, they are so dumbfounded when I ask them what in the heck they think a coyote is, a wild canine, and they actually feed on the deer but yet they somehow still co exist and the deer don’t head for mars, around here it’s mostly timber company land, I’d say 90% of my area within a couple of hours is Weyerhaeuser land, they used to do controlled burns on certain segments of land each year and rotated every year so the burning cycle would be about every 3-4 years, now the tree huggers have had their way and the timber company doesn’t burn at all anymore on the premise that they were destroying the natural habitat of the Bob white quail, now this has contributed to the natural predators to thrive with all the cover, they want to blame coons and hogs for the decline in turkey numbers but don’t take into consideration how deadly a bobcat is and we’re thriving with them around here, I’ve seen in just one instance a bobcat take out dang near half a nest of hatched turkey poults, I think between the land management and what little bit of farming we have scattered out around here has contributed greatly in the turkey decline, I think they are catching something from all the chicken litter that is spread on these fields and pastures at least right here close to my area, what dairy’s we have left are organic dairies and there’s enough chicken houses to keep most of the beef farmers supplied with chicken litter, you can always tell when a certain species is having a bumper crop bc that’s what most everybody is into until the numbers get knocked back and there’s not as many so they’re not as easy to catch or kill, then they go into something else, about 5 years ago we were having a bumper crop of bull frogs all along the pearl river, it became the hot thing to do and just about every night during the summer there’d be a frogging tournament, they didn’t care about size they just wanted numbers to brag on, within two years of being hit that hard they wiped them out, stay outdoors long enough and you’ll see the trends in the sportsman rise and fall like the stock market...
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Black Streak
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« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2019, 08:22:50 am »

    Seems like the first dramatic explosion in population was the rats of course they pretty much all happened around the same time frame, within 4 or 5 years  to the present.   It was the rats I noticed first though then followed by the quail.    What give rise to all this.   The only environmental changes was the rain and the flooding.    I would have suspected all the flooding would we have had here over the past 5 years would have been very hard on young life, desamating nests from rats and quail alike, and the rabbits.    The vegetation is still same kind only more dense and not as appropriate for the quail and jackrabbits.   Even in the years of drought the vegetation was still very abundant for the rats.    So what caused the extreme population swings to begin with is baffling to me.    I guess it's connected to the water somehow.  The swings have been so fast to come and go that it seems to me that the predator population wouldn't have time to grow much itself before the prey population plumitted back down to levels slightly above what they had been for prior 20 years or more.        So how does a rat population explode to such proportions under the same conditions that it plumitted in, or any other animal.   They predators certainly take advantage of the abundance and some like the blue herring shifted from fish to catching rats but the huge rat spike really only lasted a couple years.   That's not enough time to increase a predator population to the point it could whipe out such a prey population.      Further more it's  happening or happened to many types of animals like rats, quail, rabbits, frogs, crawfish.  If it were just a quail and rat explosion I could agree with you Ruben that the rats decimated the baby quail but the rats suffered same fate as the quail.    But then you through the jackrabbits in the mix and only have an uptick in predators  after all of this, I just don't see the prey predator cycle being responsible for this.   If they were responsible for the drastic decrease then how did the population explosion happen so near to the decline of the population.        What enables the enormous population growth then takes it down in spectacular fashion only a short couple years later without the predator population having much time to respond in population explosion itself.  
       If disease was the culprit in taking down the populations then what kept the population suppressed for decades then give rise to them all the sudden.   Also if disease were to be responsible for the dramatic declines then how did the populations fall back to normal or slightly higher as held by the last couple decades and were not totally consumed?      
       It's fascinating to look back on and see and to continue seeing it happen in other species.     When I think of the common explanations, on the surface at first they seem plausible but, upon deeper analysis none can fit with the timelines or give creditable explanation to allowing the dramatic rise then only allowing the population to dramatically fall back to pre explosion levels or slightly higher.   Disease and predator explosions responsible enough for such rapid and spectacular declines would have certainly drove the falling populations far beyond what they were originally before the population explosions.    The rains are still here in abundance as in the beginning of all this.           Seems like the more I know, the fewer answers I come up with lol.    
       These are just my thoughts and ramblings.        God's creations are so amazing and mysterious at times.  
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Black Streak
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« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2019, 10:15:08 am »

Goose that's another thing I've seen a pretty good increase in iver the last 5 years.    Turkey have been in good numbers around here for many years.   Probably 20 years or more but the numbers of them as of about 5 years ago have noticeably increased.    They are a pest at the deer feeders  for sure and such an aggravation.   I didn't think of the turkey untill you said that but they are certainly more as of 5 years ago than any previous time I can ever remember in my 40 years.   I just haven't noticed the dramatic rise and fall of the population, just a steady increase till about 3 years ago that it has since remained at.         
     As far as trends in sportsmen go, I've only ever noticed that in fishing.    It's a free for all on the water bodies but I've not noticed the trends in the hunting world here I can only assume because the lands are private and hunter numbers are controlled by the land owners only allowing so many hunters per x amount of acres.     Usually it's same hunters on same lease for decades at a time unless the land owner has allowed a lease jockey to come in and run the hunting.   Usually more hunters and huge turnover rates on the ranches that's been given over to lease jockeys.    What I know as a lease jockey is a guy whom has made a business or carrier out of leasing many lands and ranches that are scattered whom stocks then with hunters but is not part of the camp or lease himself.        I can see the turnover rate enabling trends to develop among hunters in those instances.         
      Fortunately I only know of such and not apart of such.    But back to the hunting trends of the hunters, the quail weren't  in big numbers for more than 1 hunting season and no one hunted quail around these parts because for decades the quail hadn't been here in the numbers to hunt.   During the quail season we did have so many quail we didn't hunt them because we were deer hunters primarily and not to interested in hunting quail.    For those of us that used to hunt them many years ago, we were so delighted just to see them in abundance after so long that were had very little ambition to take to hunting them.    Not 1 bird dog was purchase among all the camps and ranches that I know during this short time but there was talk about it and I'm certain it would have happened had the population been able to stay at those numbers for several seasons.     Right before the second year/quail season the numbers tanked mysteriously  almost within a month or 2 at most.     
      The bullfrogs did create a new item in which the guys took to hunting.    They killed hundreds each year and now into their 3rd year and the numbers are still very strong for the frogs.   Probably because my camp is only ones around close that are doing it and the rains have enabled the mature frogs to move around so easily when it floods and replentish whats been harvested.   But the hunters have been taken care of the resource and not killing all the big ones at one particular spot and they only shoot the bigger frogs and let the younger ones live till next year.       Plus all that beer that makes the hunters so agile and quite and sneaky really plays good for the frogs at night.   For frog hunting starts taking place well into the evening lol.         So far and despite the pressure from what talented hunters persue the frog, the frogs are still doing well after 3 plus years.           No added pressure or trends were put towards quail or the rats other than the fish cranes.     However we did make a hand at killing the Jackrabbits in the fields but there numbers are still good compared to before.    They suffered same population explosion and similar fall as the other animals though despite us trying to control the numbers.    However now that I think of it,  the two species we did take to shooting that actually had a dramatic explosion in population didn't fall back to pre explosion numbers but remains higher or in the case of the frogs has seemingly thrived despite the added pressure.     The 2 we didn't hunt, the rats and quail fell back to similar numbers as before.     Turkey have not seen much added pressure and remain very high in numbers.       Deer are doing very well and pigs are still doing well despite seemingly haven taken a small dip in population.    But pigs I've seen fluctuate rapidly.   Just when you think your goung to be over run with pigs in another years time, that coming year seems like less than the prior.  Then the next year will be a seemingly decent increase in.     Really figure the deer, pigs, Turkey, and frogs are at a nice steady sustainable population density for they have been doing well for a sustained amount of time and are coexisting well with the farms, water ways, hunters, and predator prey relationship.    Snake population seems low compared to what I knew it as a kid.   Coyote numbers are good but steady do to ranchers and hunters.     Cat  numbers are more than I can ever remember but still their isn't a plague of bobcat despite how well they are doing.      Thier steady increase in number is predictable do to the swings of abundance of their prey but they in no way were responsible for decimating the populations so quickly.     In the cats favor the rat swing then quail and jackrabbits coupled with the great deer, pig, and turkey sustained populations have allowed the cats to steadily increase without any seeing any decline the way the rats and quail went.      I'm sure the bobcat are better at catching the jacks for coyote isn't fast enough to run down jacks and cats can ambush them in the jacks shady spots so easily.         
     I guess I can see trends in hunters but I can't contribute that to the dramatic decline of the animals either because the ones we have targeted were better after their sharp decline than the ones we didn't target.           Seems like each year there are more and more guns in the woods targeting deer and taking more pigs and even turkey but these 3 populations are still seemingly increasing slowly.   The deer population is growing but the amount of hunters in the woods play havoc on bucks and them able to get to 5 and 6 years old.    What once was known for the amount of boon and crocket bucks harvested out of the county and made it famous for such bucks was its demise and now yeilds same or fewer boon and crockets bucks as a mediocre county.   Still its reputation precedes it and it's known for what it once produced and hunters are paying crazy money and there are more hunters each year than the hear before in the county.    Still the population is great and growing but antlers do not set atop many 5 and 6 year old majestic bucks for they are killed before before they can reach such magnificence in this area I hunt.      I'm glad so many people are hunting and excersing that right and getting into the outdoors with gun and knife and bow in hand especially in the times we find ourselves in when the socialist in both parties have come so far as to deface this nation and trample all that we have ever stood for and were developed on.   I'd much rather have my bretheren in the woods with me competing for deer and killing the best young bucks they can find rather than be alone in the woods with everyone else in the cities absorbing the communist ideology and attempted cue and take over.           Probably shouldn't have rambled so much.  I covered lot of water lol
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t-dog
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« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2019, 11:04:33 am »

To me the species that have increased and remain high in numbers have the common denominator that they all have multiple food sources and when it rains like it has those sources thrive too. The quail have a limited food source and are preyed upon by numerous predators and scavengers. The deer are catered to by so many with protein feeders and corn feeders to food plots etc. Animals like cats, coyotes, coons, skunks, possums, aren't hunted for pelts any longer (not like yesteryear anyway). Hogs as we all know have the advantage of being extremely intelligent and will eat anything they can over power, catch, or stumble upon. How many game cameras have captured hogs eating or killing coons or fawns etc. They will take advantage of the deer food plots and feeders or help themselves to cattle feeders or eat dead cattle. They are prolific to the fullest. The frogs have plenty of water sources which means plenty of food sources and they multiply so rapidly. When the water goes away, so will the frogs. I have to believe if those quail and rabbit populations were managed like the deer they would thrive also. I love seeing more hunters in the woods too. It's the ignorance of what seems to be a majority that bothers me. They don't seem to care to co-exist nor do they comprehend any other species or nature. I'm gonna leave that there because it fires me up pretty good. Ignorance and closed mindedness make me want to fight lol.

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Black Streak
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« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2019, 04:51:55 pm »

To me the species that have increased and remain high in numbers have the common denominator that they all have multiple food sources and when it rains like it has those sources thrive too. The quail have a limited food source and are preyed upon by numerous predators and scavengers. The deer are catered to by so many with protein feeders and corn feeders to food plots etc. Animals like cats, coyotes, coons, skunks, possums, aren't hunted for pelts any longer (not like yesteryear anyway). Hogs as we all know have the advantage of being extremely intelligent and will eat anything they can over power, catch, or stumble upon. How many game cameras have captured hogs eating or killing coons or fawns etc. They will take advantage of the deer food plots and feeders or help themselves to cattle feeders or eat dead cattle. They are prolific to the fullest. The frogs have plenty of water sources which means plenty of food sources and they multiply so rapidly. When the water goes away, so will the frogs. I have to believe if those quail and rabbit populations were managed like the deer they would thrive also. I love seeing more hunters in the woods too. It's the ignorance of what seems to be a majority that bothers me. They don't seem to care to co-exist nor do they comprehend any other species or nature. I'm gonna leave that there because it fires me up pretty good. Ignorance and closed mindedness make me want to fight lol.

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      So what brought about the population explosion in the rats, quail and rabbits.      The predators were already fairly abundant and in place before the explosions happened.   So if it was the predators that dramatically drive the numbers down as fast or faster than they arose, then how did the numbers get so great to begin with since all the predators where already in similar numbers at the rise and fall of the cycles.    The big crash in the quail cycle fell at late summer early fall when food and weather was still great.   
    The cottentails didn't see the swings the jacks did, they are still steady.    Not long after the quail died off the field larks migrate in and forage on same basic stuff the quail do.   So there is plenty of food for the both yet the quail vanished before the larks even migrated in and started competing for same basic food which was in abundance.       
           Food was plentiful throughout the swings of the cycles and predators didn't have time to increase in any substation proportions.     I'm full of questions and information but don't really have a good solid answere for myself that gives rise to the cycle and explains the dramatic fall when so much other stuff went unaffected such as cottentails and feild larks that would fall in same dramatic fashion if predators.were responsible for the drastic declines of other similar species.   
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t-dog
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« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2019, 07:08:30 pm »

Those are good valid points Dean and from that perspective it is puzzling. My is I don't know, lol.

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Black Streak
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« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2019, 07:18:48 pm »

Those are good valid points Dean and from that perspective it is puzzling. My is I don't know, lol.

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    I'm pretty stumped too.   When it comes to micro biology and viruses and disease I'm kinda blind


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msula87
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« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2019, 06:13:00 am »

I remember growing up years like this for two types of animals in particular. Snakes one year, which gave me healthy fear of the things, and tarantulas another. Lots of relatives keep Australian Shepherds and many times that year the dogs would walk up with one or two of those furry spiders hanging on their shaggy hair. Interesting questions and ones I believe modern science is still trying to figure out. Off all the species I think quail has probably been studied the most by places like Texas A&M, etc. and there's some interested stuff out there.

In a very minorly related topic here's a couple videos I like which I think y'all would too. The first one has to do with finding answers that go against current belief regarding agriculture and conservation and the second is just a great land restoration video from TX.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpTHi7O66pI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSPkcpGmflE&t=266s
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Black Streak
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« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2019, 04:07:25 pm »

I remember growing up years like this for two types of animals in particular. Snakes one year, which gave me healthy fear of the things, and tarantulas another. Lots of relatives keep Australian Shepherds and many times that year the dogs would walk up with one or two of those furry spiders hanging on their shaggy hair. Interesting questions and ones I believe modern science is still trying to figure out. Off all the species I think quail has probably been studied the most by places like Texas A&M, etc. and there's some interested stuff out there.

In a very minorly related topic here's a couple videos I like which I think y'all would too. The first one has to do with finding answers that go against current belief regarding agriculture and conservation and the second is just a great land restoration video from TX.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpTHi7O66pI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSPkcpGmflE&t=266s



      This guy is as about as throwed off or mistaken as Darwin was.      He is wolf in sheep's clothing.   
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