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Author Topic: The Coyote...and other Carnivores  (Read 2792 times)
Reuben
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« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2019, 04:28:06 am »

The little female I mentioned in my previous post...if a wolf cub or lion cub started leaving their dens at 7 weeks to go exploring and they got lost they probably will attract another predator with their calling...the threat can be from ground dwellers to predators that fly...so they would be taken out of the gene pool...Mother Nature can be harsh...but she doesn’t make mistakes...

We as humans do not breed dogs based on Mother Nature...or do anything else based on Mother Nature for that matter...

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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
The Old Man
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« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2019, 08:58:55 am »

I'm going to continue to try to emulate mother nature in the order of starting and selecting young dogs out of solid line bred strains of dogs and do get pretty good percentages of dogs that are nice dogs, the method I have posted has allowed me to keep the quality up and consistent in two breeds of dogs for many years without having to "search for new or better blood." They are consistent enough that I can go get any combination of them and go get the job done, I have 10-12 around of each breed and have trouble figuring out who I'm gonna use that day since there isn't any one or two I have to have along.

 I do not have to keep the entire litter to make it work because I didn't mix the paint in the beginning, I chose solid strains of dogs initially. I didn't want to make experimental crosses of different breeds and attempt to purify them for traits. For those that do want to do it that way and are successful that is great and they have my respect because I believe it to be much tougher that way, I could name several, but the path I chose was simpler for me and I have attempted to share it in these posts.

I came to realize the  value in this a few years ago when bear hunting out of state with a good family of people that had a good family of dogs there were 3 generations of these people and between them they had 12-15 dogs and you could just close your eyes and grab any 2 of them and go tree bear, often on a split one would tree alone. Why it hadn't dawned on me previously I don't know because I have witnessed it in several mens program through the years and it "is" the sign of success, but since then that has been (my standard test) for a man or breeders strain of dogs. Like you my method works for me and I am just as thoroughly  convinced it is better, and that you will get the consistent quality sooner this way. Selection at an appropriate age, honest assessment and ruthless culling is all it takes to maintain a  strain of dogs if you started with a solid line of dogs. Good dogs are made at the knot and all you have to provide is opportunity and discipline.     I am comfortable with agreeing to disagree, am not offended nor intend any offense, so far that is our right in the USA.
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t-dog
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« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2019, 09:04:45 am »

I totally 100% agree with you about pups progressing at different ages. One might show the things you want to see at 6 weeks and another may not do it for another month. But that one that did first could also plateau at 6 months or year and be all they are ever gonna be while the one that's steadily progressing ends up passing it and makes a really good dog. I like to think that I've selected my brood stock well enough and gotten lucky enough that I can reach in blind and get a good pup but I am puppy funny. The litter better be solid or I'm not breeding ANY of the pups but as for which one I or 2 I keep for myself, they have to have that it factor for me. I can't really describe the "it" factor. It's the eye first. That good eye is huge. Same with people, shady people have shady eyes lol. It's the "swagger" the puppy has. It seems like there's "that" puppy in the litter that usually grabs me. I have gotten rid of every pup in the litter because there wasn't a pup that had that "it" factor for me. The one time in can remember doing that, the litter turned out really well. Like some of them made excellent dogs and the worst of them were good dogs. I never regretted not keeping one though. My training is as much for my benefit as the dogs. I know by the time I start talking them on live hunts if they are gonna be potential brood stock. If they aren't then they gotta go. I'm not waiting for them to decide at 2 that they want to do it right. I can't afford to keep a ton of dogs and don't hunt enough to do a young dogs justice if its having to rotate with other young dogs that don't have the potential. They need to be worked and hunted to reach their potential so I'm not wasting it on anything I know isn't going to fill the bill.

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t-dog
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« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2019, 09:06:21 am »

Again, having had these dogs for a while, I know their tendencies and habits which helps a ton as well. It let's me get a head start on what potentially lies ahead.

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Reuben
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« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2019, 10:19:09 am »

Old man...I do not disagree with you at all...that is another way that absolutely works...the biggest thing to know is knowing what a great hunting dog is...and breed only those types and keeping those related...I want the same thing but even if they are a fixed and top bloodline I will test because as I already mentioned...why not take the great dogs to a higher level...

I have had trouble finding dogs of the caliber I want on account I haven’t seen it around here but then again I don’t hunt with many people anymore...

True, I mix paint trying to create what I consider to be the best all around dog...of course my personal opinion...the 60-65 pound Mt cur of yesterday year...a dog that is in the middle of the road...a dog that has hound qualities and cur qualities...a dog you can put in the woods right after good dogs came out without striking or finding a hog...and then send mine in and have one bayed in short order...who doesn’t like that kind of dog...

When I got out of the dogs in 2007 I had those dogs... and they bred true...but even then I tested because I wanted to be sure I retained the very best pups...I have seen the dogs get better as generations progressed...that didn’t make sense but it happened that way and that leads me to believe in theories I previously mentioned...it’s not just about the dogs in what we see but also what we cannot be seen...
But in reality at my age I am not so much after creating what I once had but creating dogs good enough to hunt as well as I like and also to produce good pups... I do know that the consistency may not be as I would like but I will get what I want through testing on account the foundation is coming together...

I write this on here because what I am saying works...and anyone can apply or choose to not apply...or use a variation of what I write...I believe this way is one of the best ways...not the mixing paint part but the philosophy of the breeding process...

You have said that you do not believe in feeding wieners to pups for selecting hunting dogs...but I say it works because I have done it for many years...you did say that you have seen pups that turn on at a later date and maybe be better...I do not dispute that at all...but why pick that pup when you can pick the one that starts earlier and is of the same caliber? I choose to split hairs because that’s what it takes in moving towards the top...I do not think there is any question that could be asked of me on how to breed dogs that I haven’t already asked myself and either got it answered or developed a theory based on past experiences...

As I have said before I do keep observing the pups until they are actually hunting as you do...but I test earlier so I can see natural born ability that starts early...not when the pup clicks at a later time in its life...
But you seem to speak negatively about my system without you ever trying it...like you I am not offended but I defend my beliefs...

It is a free country as you said and I totally agree...and I stand firm on what I believe...

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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
The Old Man
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« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2019, 11:01:23 am »

I don't keep pups that start or progress late but until they are big enough to go they aren't late, and many times the one that appeared to be ahead when they were puppies is not the best one at a time they are big enough to go. I am saying in an already solid line of dogs the puppy testing is not necessary and can even be detrimental as explained in a prior post due to the development rate in them and their true natural abilities will show at an age old enough to go, often the early shiner is not the one you really want. I don't want a handmade dog because they cannot reproduce training.
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The Old Man
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« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2019, 11:35:19 am »

Reuben I have a series of questions for you that will be close to home and if they are too close to home just tell me it is none of my business but I ask them to help me understand your theories and practices.

You continually talk about the superiority of Mt Curs  and have for years, I don't have one thing against Mt Curs and firmly believe there are some good ones out there, but have  never needed one so the question is if they are superior and the dogs really need Mt Cur in them chosen from early testing and training, why don't you have a solid line of them.

 If your early testing and training is truly as successful as you profess why have you not settled in your own line of dogs yet, Seems like I remember you trying some redbone, pit, Parker Cur several strains of Plott and Mt Cur crosses through the years and in fact very recently. Yet you are still outcrossing and experimenting.

If you just plain enjoy making crosses and tinkering with the pups in an attempt to predict the outcome that is okay with me as this is America and we have the right to pursue what makes us happy so lets call it that,  in the end the proof is in the puddin and if the puddin is good you don't need to add to the recipe no matter what all is or is not in it.

I am back to consistent success being in a solid line of family bred dogs no matter as to how that family is bred, do you disagree that a family of good dogs breeds more consistently then constant outcrosses and if you don't disagree why do you make all the outcrosses you post through the time?
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Judge peel
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« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2019, 11:36:07 am »

You never really know what a dog will do until it does it. Some skip around some show big then fall off some do a slow climb. Some show big and finish big. I think those are rare. I think a lot are not given the right chances. And some are given to many. I think all the testing and stuff will make the dog your putting the effort in better but has no real impact on breeding or how the dog finishes out


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Judge peel
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« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2019, 11:37:53 am »

But I am for all the training you can do for a dog. If you like the dog I think it’s time we’ll soent


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The Old Man
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« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2019, 12:57:37 pm »

I think all the testing and stuff will make the dog your putting the effort in better but has no real impact on breeding or how the dog finishes out

If it doesn't affect how he finishes out how does it make him better.
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Reuben
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« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2019, 01:24:06 pm »

Old Man, I do not mind answering your questions…I did get out of the dogs for a while…
And I do believe the right mt curs are some of the best…they hunt fast, wind, run a track fast, are quick locators and you can cast them, rig them or road them and they have lots of bottom…finding those dogs didn’t happen overnight but it didn’t take long and I believe I made them better…
Yes I did have a redbone x pit bull and he was a really good dog…but I needed something that could hunt and he was it…I crossed him to a kemmer and kept two pups and they were good hog dogs…still have one of them…the other passed on…
But like I have said before there is a bunch of junk out there…if you look at today’s mt cur many are small with small ears and are hot nosed and really can’t run a track…I am sure there are some really good ones but I do not know about them…here resently I have found quite a few good kemmers out there and made a friend who likes the same type of dogs I do and so we are sharing pups…
I have culled many while looking for a good line of dogs…I also have culled many so called excellent plotts for other reasons as well…
I tried to stay away from the kemmers but there are good ones there that I know of and so I have some of those crosses…so far the plotts I have liked are the pochahontas and I really like the pup I have now….she is weems and shamrock breeding from the best dogs that these guys have…the pochahontas were out of the best dogs that was had at the time by another hunter…so at least that is on my side…
When I said I was going into it again I said I was not moving fast in creating a bloodline or even creating a bloodline…just breeding for a few good dogs…but then it has been a hard row to hoe in finding the type of dogs I like…I want one type of dog that can do all I like from a dog and look good doing it…
It seems to me that you are looking for weakness in what I write…but I am ok with at…like I said before…any breeding question I probably already dealt with it at one time or another...
The biggest problem I’m having right now is hunting my dogs enough…great dogs don’t need many tracks to look good but they need enough tracks so they can reach their potential…
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
Reuben
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« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2019, 01:31:54 pm »

I think all the testing and stuff will make the dog your putting the effort in better but has no real impact on breeding or how the dog finishes out

If it doesn't affect how he finishes out how does it make him better.


i'M not looking to make the pup better...I'm looking to see what is in the pup...and if you believe in epigenetics then you would tend to believe that if done in a positive manner that there could be possitve results...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
The Old Man
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« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2019, 01:32:06 pm »

I am not looking for weakness in what you have written but have paid attention to the process.
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The Old Man
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« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2019, 01:34:00 pm »

That question that you quoted about testing and finishing was for Judge Peel as that was his statement in his post above my question..
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