Son x mother

[Slim9797]

Anybody ever made this cross?if so what was the back story on the dogs and how did the cross turn out?

   I understand it is playing with fire but it’s already done. Was not on purpose though I had pondered on it, but this most recent litter out of my sketch dog was by an own son of hers out of her previous litter. 4 months old and the little gyp I kept I think has a real shot at being one of the great ones.

  This litter she had 8 pups with one true runt that she did away with in the first day or 2. No physical abnormalities to any of them. Overall the litter looks pretty identical to the previous(shocker I know lol) one which was a straight “F-1” cross. This little gyp of mine has to be the smartest little pup I have ever messed with. She takes 0 number 2 off any other dogs, at 4 months old she thinks she can punk the bulldogs on the back of the truck lmao. Anyway I am excited about her so wondering if anyone else has had a similar situation.


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[Cajun]

Slim, years ago we were bear hunting in Canada and my best female Tarbaby came in heat.  I was lucky enough to have her Dad there even tho he was getting up there in age. We bred her to him twice. We only got 3 pups out of the litter but every pup was a top dog. Wish we would have had a dozen.
  As long as both dogs have the traits you are looking for I will make that cross every time.

[make-em-squeel]

Ive had several father daughter breeding's turn out great - my lead strike dog now.

[BA-IV]

I think it’s only an issue when the dogs are already heavy linebred. 

[Goose87]

Made the same cross, bred my Ben dog back to his mother, had 4 pups and they all leaned more to the side of the mothers ancestry, I give a pair to a very undeserving individual and never heard anything out of them other than the idiot got one messed up real bad as a young pup hunting them WAY to early just because they would go and do it, the pair of females I kept I gave to two good ole boys I like a lot and both of them are top notch dogs, on Bens top side is bred extremely tight and on Shiloh there’s no line/family breeding so I wasn’t afraid of getting to tight, one of the boys bred his gyp to a son of Ben of another litter and none of the litter made it and I believe they were just to tight and physical abnormalities unseen is what lead to the litters demise...

[t-dog]

Slim I’m gonna say something that I don’t want you to take the wrong way. It’s my opinion and what I myself have experienced over the years. I was picking the brain of old pit bull breeder many years ago. We got to talking about my goals as far my breeding plans. Of course line breeding was brought up. He told me that you could do father to his own daughter 7 times before you started having issues (as a rule of thumb). That being said, he told me to NEVER do mother/son. Of course I asked why that was and he was honest, he said he didn’t know. He said that he had tried it with bad results. He too was warned by mentors not to do that particular cross. He just told me that he didn’t understand the difference in it and the father/daughter cross but one works and one doesn’t. I tried it anyway, 3 times. All 3 litters were complete failures. One litter had 6 pups. Of those 3 were born dead and looked premature or underdeveloped. One male was a show stopper in the looks category but couldn’t catch a paper sack. Another male was BAD built and would catch a freight train if he caught up to it. The third was running across the yard at about 6 months old, yelped one time and fell over grave yard dead. The other 2 litters weren’t so much physical but they just weren’t right is the only way I can explain it. You wouldn’t have known they were even in the same family as the dogs they were out of. I know that people have done it and had luck but I’ve heard way more failures than success stories. Your pups smarts sound awesome but I don’t like the no nonsense attitude part. Maybe I’m not seeing it correctly but the quarrelsome nature is the easiest fastest way to get moved down the road. A buddy of mine kept a male puppy out of a litter because he thought it was funny and a sign of independence. The dog almost cost us a friendship because he was a constant problem when hunting. Either he wanted to challenge the bull dogs or he was jumping on other dogs at the hog. He ruined an extremely nice puppy I had doing that. I would’ve never known what it was but got lucky and saw it happen one day. I told my buddy the next time the dog even bristles up at another dog that he was gonna take him home in two pieces. He never brought him again with me. Like I say, I could have the wrong perception of her zero tolerance. If it’s right though it may just be her personality and nothing to do with the particular cross. Like I say though, I’m glad you like the pup and I hope she turns out to be the best you’ve ever had.


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[Mike]

Slim, I did in the beginning to double up on the dam’s genetics. All my line bred dogs go back to that cross.

[Slim9797]

Thomas no harm no foul. I want to hear everyone’s side of it. As far as her no non sense thing, so far it isn’t what I would call dog aggression, but she is still very young, certainly something I will keep an eye on and something I have 0 tolerance for. 
 
 What I am telling myself or atleast hoping at the moment is it is more or less her being a puppy and playing. She also has free roam of the 1000 acres I live on and she does roam around some. Runs coyotes off, trees squirrels, bays my horse. she hasn’t been confined since she could climb out of the dog house at about 3 weeks old. That changed tonight as she is officially kenneled and no longer free to come and go. I’d have to catch a video of her doing what I’m talking about.  She’s a goofy little pup I’ll say that, and she’s very vocal, she will bark just to hear herself make noise right now, sounds like she’s trying to talk half the time lol.
 
5 of my buddies also got pups out of the litter. 1 is here in beeville and she’s just gonna be a pet. She’s smart and pretty, little more laid back dog but that also comes a little with being a house dog IMO. Another is up the road in Kennedy a male, he’s gonna hog hunt. Haven’t seen him since I dropped him off but through conversation he sounds a lot like my female. He’s with my buddy Nathan carpenter and I trust Nathan’s judgement as much as I do my own. Nathan is excited about him. Another female is at my buddy Rhett back home outside schulenburg. She’s an in town dog, comes in the house some but spends nights outside in kennel, Rhett and me started hog hunting together and she is gonna get a chance to make a hog dog for us. She is real quiet, laid back kinda dog, again I think that’s some of the “house dog” mentality.  Other 2 are with another buddy back home. He’s got a male female pair and also hunts with me. They get turned loose at his receiving pens and they spend all day barking at yearlings and running loose but are kenneled at the pens at night. They are the most people shy of the ones I’ve been around but not coyote by any means. They will get the chance to be hog dogs. And the last male is up in north Texas with CRC which is where sketch came from. He is excited about him and said he’s a spunky little dude. Also going to get a chance to be a hog dog.


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[Slim9797]

Slim, I did in the beginning to double up on the dam’s genetics. All my line bred dogs go back to that cross.

That is the Idea mike. If I can get to where I can have a string full of Dogs just like sketch, I’ll be happy. She’s got a few weaknesses and I plan on making an out cross to help with those as next cross and then cross the best out of that litter back to the best of one of her pups when and if that opportunity presents itself. But overall she is most everything I want in a dog and she has bayed lots and lots of stock and game with me over the last 5 years.


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[Northstar]

I have done the cross. It produced the best males I had the pleasure of hunting behind. I did notice the times I did it the sizes of the dog produced were all over the place.

 I do want to ask another question. I have heard it brought up a lot from hog dog people. why would it be different mother x son vs father x daughter? Genetics are genetics or am I wrong?

[t-dog]

Northstar that has been my question for a long time. I know people do it both ways and I tried it with no luck. All 3 times were different females one tight line bred, one line bred but not tight, and the other an F1 cross. None of them were related. The only thing they had in common was they were outstanding gyps. The older guys I’ve talked with have advised against it but couldn’t give an explanation why they thought it didn’t work. Logic says it’s the same as father/daughter so why wouldn’t it work? I didn’t for me so I don’t do it. I will do grandma/grandson though. Mike had good luck with it as have others. Maybe it’s luck on my part lol.

Slim I hope she works out. The description of your litter sounds like the old saying “if someone says your a jacka$$, they might be the jacka$$, but if everyone says you’re a jacka$$ then you’re probably a jacka$$!” With everyone having the same opinion of each pup sounds like the odds are in your favor that she is what you think she is. You’ve had some hard luck with your dogs I hope for your sake she is.


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[The Old Man]

"I believe" there is no difference genetically, I have not made either cross so my opinion is not based on first hand experience. The best  I could explain the failures in the crosses that failed would be the same as any other cross that failed some males or females do not reproduce an honest reflection of their strain, or there were recessive's in them that that when "paired" came out . That and accidental death is why I have always promoted breeding them early, they are not proven producers no matter how good they are on the ground, until bred and the offspring used.
Lets face it, if we could just breed a good one to a good one and be assured to get good ones, and then breed those good ones within the family and make them better and more consistent everyone would have an outstanding dog, and again lets face it, the truly outstanding dogs are rare.  I can't see that there is any particular magic-nor taboo cross in animal husbandry.

[t-dog]

That’s very true old man. Just when you think you’ve figured it out you’ll learn you don’t.


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[Austesus]

Thanks for starting this one up Slim... I always enjoy reading on breeding from the experienced guys on here. I’ve currently been trying to figure out the game of chess for how to take what I have a tighten it up in to something worth feeding. I have several different ways I can take things between a few of the dogs I have, just not sure what the best route will be as I’m starting with all unrelated dogs and trying to mold them in to my vision of what I want. All of this is currently dependent on whether my 3 pups make the cut or not. If they do not, I’m back to the drawing board.


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[williamsld]

Really glad you started this topic slim... I’ve never made the cross but I do have a gyp out of a mother son cross, it was a happy accident I guess you could say it’s out of my crank dogs littermate brother and their mom(she’s a line bred dog) right before she died of old age but she’s never been hunted she’s about 3-4 and I got her from him for a just in case my old crank dog dies before I get to cross him to a few gyps...but I plan on breeding her to my bill dog (male off my crank dog and a full outcross gyp) to loosen the pups up without going another straight outcross
She’s a nice level headed dog just super hyper and a smaller framed dog(my guess is from it being such a tight cross)

Anyone have any tips about how far out y’all would cross to a motherxson cross pup? Or would the half outcross be fine?


O yeah our litter of crank and them was a full outcross male to the line bred dam idk if that helps


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[t-dog]

I’m no expert but breeding period is about your goals and objectives. You have to factor what you are trying to produce as well as the pros and cons each parent brings to the table. Was cranks dad line bred from another line or was he a scatter bred dog? If Cranks mother was what I wanted to reproduce then I would breed back towards her. If that’s the case I would probably breed Crank to his niece/ half sister first just because of his age. You could breed her to something else after that if didn’t work. Unless you have him collected you are subject not to have him any day. His age and occupation aren’t breeder friendly so to speak. I also don’t know if there are other dogs out of that line out there that you have access to. It’s digging worth doing. You have to figure in how to fix the holes in the line or their short comings. Can you do it by breeding within the family or will it require an out cross? Are they already too tight and if so what do you base that off of? My way of thinking is as long as the dogs perform and are physically sound, they aren’t too tight. You have to have an end goal in mind. As stated already, there is no exact science or guarantees but in order to get a specific type you have to breed for it. In my opinion kennel blindness is the number one fault in breeders today. You have to be humble enough to admit what dogs are and not let sentimental attachment or pedigrees be the reason you use a dog to reproduce. Performance has to be first.


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[Reuben]

"I believe" there is no difference genetically, I have not made either cross so my opinion is not based on first hand experience. The best  I could explain the failures in the crosses that failed would be the same as any other cross that failed some males or females do not reproduce an honest reflection of their strain, or there were recessive's in them that that when "paired" came out . That and accidental death is why I have always promoted breeding them early, they are not proven producers no matter how good they are on the ground, until bred and the offspring used.
Lets face it, if we could just breed a good one to a good one and be assured to get good ones, and then breed those good ones within the family and make them better and more consistent everyone would have an outstanding dog, and again lets face it, the truly outstanding dogs are rare.  I can't see that there is any particular magic-nor taboo cross in animal husbandry.

I agree with your post but will add some of my beliefs...as we move forward with our breeding programs we should get a higher percentage of good dogs produced simply because we are selecting as best we can from each generation...selecting and keeping the best pups for hunting and breeding is key...and I say breed close to eliminate bringing in too many new genes because that makes a breeding program turn into a crap shoot...

I also think the genes are basically the same whether male or female...the biggest difference is that the female carries the pups and they are connected to her...and they live with her at least the first 8 weeks of their lives...at a time when they are very impressionable and if the female is shy or over aggressive it could affect the pups...

[t-dog]

Williamsld one other thing is I’d work and use that female some how. You gotta know if she is worthy of being bred. If she puts up any red flags then you gotta get more extensive. If all she possesses are the negative traits of the line or cons out way the pros then she likely isn’t going to help at all no matter what she’s out of.


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[Slim9797]

Northstar that has been my question for a long time. I know people do it both ways and I tried it with no luck. All 3 times were different females one tight line bred, one line bred but not tight, and the other an F1 cross. None of them were related. The only thing they had in common was they were outstanding gyps. The older guys I’ve talked with have advised against it but couldn’t give an explanation why they thought it didn’t work. Logic says it’s the same as father/daughter so why wouldn’t it work? I didn’t for me so I don’t do it. I will do grandma/grandson though. Mike had good luck with it as have others. Maybe it’s luck on my part lol.

Slim I hope she works out. The description of your litter sounds like the old saying “if someone says your a jacka$$, they might be the jacka$$, but if everyone says you’re a jacka$$ then you’re probably a jacka$$!” With everyone having the same opinion of each pup sounds like the odds are in your favor that she is what you think she is. You’ve had some hard luck with your dogs I hope for your sake she is.


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You can say that last part again. I have had some Hellacious luck, and alot of it has been my own damn fault. I have lived and learned though so atleast it isn’t all for nothing. Luckily, I took a new job out of Caldwell. Start 1st of March, and this job will have 0 say so in what I do with my dogs or how many I keep. I got a lot of big plans this year. My dog program of course isn’t the upmost priority, but it’s top 5. Hopefully going in to this fall, I’m back to feeding a full string of dogs I can be proud of.


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[williamsld]

Williamsld one other thing is I’d work and use that female some how. You gotta know if she is worthy of being bred. If she puts up any red flags then you gotta get more extensive. If all she possesses are the negative traits of the line or cons out way the pros then she likely isn’t going to help at all no matter what she’s out of.


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The dad to crank wasn’t line bred he was scatter bred just good dogs bred together I know his dad was jam up and so was his grand sire on that side

I have access to the original breeder of cranks mom’s line several male dogs out of it to cross in to later on and I have a gyp at the house that I really like too that’s half the same line as cranks mom too just a different side of it and that’s the side that I like and want to get back to

I was out of town this past fall and crank slipped his collar and made the cross with his niece/half sister and the one pup she had in the litter was a gyp that was real bad bowlegged and got culled at like 3 months for her bad conformation

I do agree I need to hunt her more before I do anything breed wise just got her for a “just Incase” situation but that was prior to getting more access to these other dogs from this line to help with


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