Son x mother

[Slim9797]

Every litter of pups I’ve ever had, I’ve always hunted the mom until she was about 3 weeks out on pups. I believe it to be a real factor and somehow the unborn pups get something out of it and it makes them better in the long run.


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[Reuben]

Every litter of pups I’ve ever had, I’ve always hunted the mom until she was about 3 weeks out on pups. I believe it to be a real factor and somehow the unborn pups get something out of it and it makes them better in the long run.


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Slim…I totally agree…there is a study called Epigenetic’s that was discovered about 80 years ago and 20 years ago the interest in this study started to increase and now scientists all over the world are experimenting with it…the potential for many cures is at their fingertips…
Just one example of many…two groups of male rats were used for an experiment…one group was in a controlled temperature environment…the other group was kept in a real cold environment…these two groups were bred to females that were almost identical to each other in every way genetically, and the environment the same…
The offspring from the sires that were comfortable grew up and had normal issues such as obesity, a high incidence of heart disease and diabetes…
The offspring from the sires that were in a cold environment their offspring which were on the same diet and environment as the other offspring were in, were a lot more slim, less heart disease and less diabetes amongst them…not only that but it carried over for three generations…
There are many more different examples…I like to say many of us knew this but didn’t know how it worked…it is actually mother nature at work…it is happening all around us all the time…
When the pups are really hungry (really hungry are key words) throw a fresh hog head out to 5-week-old pups…they will go crazy on it…all positive influences…pull them off while they are wanting more…that is key as well…
Hunt the mama as you said…the pups will get a big dose of adrenaline from the mamas excitement…she’s inhaling the scent from trailing…just like smoking a joint or a cigarette…except this is hog scent molecules inhaled into the lungs and are transferred into the blood and they reach all parts of her body including the brain…and the puppies get some of this and it is a big positive…

I used to get lots of negatives on this but more and more folks are starting to see the science of Epigenetics…
Epigenetics does not change the genes and the DNA is constant…what happens is that some genes turn on and some turn off…these changes will change how our brain and body responds…if its positive…well we will have better hunting dogs…if negative we will have a setback…
It’s kind of like giving a poor kid a little ice cream once in a while and he will want more…and more…
You give that same kid all he can eat anytime he wants, and he will not want any ice cream after a while…he will be sick of it…a negative outcome…
I first read a story about the trailing and pups not born yet back in the 1970’s…at first I thought the writer must have been on LSD or something while writing the story…but as I kept reading he got to me…hook line and sinker…

[Judge peel]

I have heard that for yrs I don’t believe any of it. To me it’s just plain silly thinking. So will your son be a better student if wife does math every night before bed. What if she played basketball every day before birth your kid will be able to dunk. Maybe just maybe if she chops fire wood every day until birth your kid will be a lumberjack.


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[Reuben]

Well…common sense plays a big roll…
Women that are on crack on hooked will have newborn babies addicted to crack…

Alcoholic women that don’t quit drinking during pregnancy will have mentally disabled children or children with lower IQ’s…

But everyone is entitled to their opinions…

[Judge peel]

The brood bitch unlike the crackhead or the alcoholic is taking a chemical that goes straight in the blood stream. Don’t get me wrong I believe in good genetics but Epigenetic is nonsense my opinion don’t shoot


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[Reuben]

No problem…the science is showing that traits can be passed from the female to the pups and can carry for several generations and the same from the male side…

Common sense tells us that evolution is always evolving but now the science is starting to see and understand that much of it is genetics…that is true…but now they are starting to understand and explain many changes that are caused by the environment whether it is out in the environment or with the types of food we eat which is a form of environment…the environment in our stomach and system…just using these two examples of many that can be staged or created to get a desired outcome…that is how the science is being performed…IMO with this knowledge we should be very considerate in training techniques that includes attentive to the pups mental state during training and making sure everything is positive during training or hunting exercises…I train and hunt that way as often as possible…

[Goose87]

Good Looking Pups, and appear to be fireballs. I have often read where folks say the female has more influence on pups because she carries and nurses them, I consider that to be an environmental influence and to be almost completely false. If weaned at an appropriate time she will not have any more influence than any other dog they are closely associated with.    Buuuut all mammals receive their mitochondrial dna from their mother only, so if there are any performance traits attached to the mitochondrial dna they are passed to the offspring only from her which could give the female an advantage. All that I have ever been able to find out seems that the mitochondrial dna is more closely associated with health issues be they good or bad.

Clue, from what I've found on the genetic material that's carried and passed through mtDNA, has a lot to do with muscle control and function, which correlates into athleticism, and working abilities, and it got into a little more detail about a few certain other genes dealing with health, that's a lot of reason why the race horse people and bird dog world has put a lot of emphasis on the females lineage, I'll see if I can find that study again and post the link...

[Goose87]

Good Looking Pups, and appear to be fireballs. I have often read where folks say the female has more influence on pups because she carries and nurses them, I consider that to be an environmental influence and to be almost completely false. If weaned at an appropriate time she will not have any more influence than any other dog they are closely associated with.    Buuuut all mammals receive their mitochondrial dna from their mother only, so if there are any performance traits attached to the mitochondrial dna they are passed to the offspring only from her which could give the female an advantage. All that I have ever been able to find out seems that the mitochondrial dna is more closely associated with health issues be they good or bad.

Clue, from what I've found on the genetic material that's carried and passed through mtDNA, has a lot to do with muscle control and function, which correlates into athleticism, and working abilities, and it got into a little more detail about a few certain other genes dealing with health, that's a lot of reason why the race horse people and bird dog world has put a lot of emphasis on the females lineage, I'll see if I can find that study again and post the link...

  Secretariat is one of the sires that was involved in a study done by the race industry as to why such on prominent stallion couldn't reproduce a son as equal to or greater than himself, it was discovered that his daughters carried the genes to produce good stallions as equal to their grandsire....

[Goose87]

I have heard that for yrs I don’t believe any of it. To me it’s just plain silly thinking. So will your son be a better student if wife does math every night before bed. What if she played basketball every day before birth your kid will be able to dunk. Maybe just maybe if she chops fire wood every day until birth your kid will be a lumberjack.


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It's hard for someone to believe something that don't have a clue at understanding and since they can't understand then it's blasphemy and bullsh!t, we live in the time of technology in the age of information, where access to vast information is at our finger tips literally, nearly all of us have access to the Internet and the research and information is there at ones disposal 24/7....


Here's an example of EPIgenetics in plain sight every day, if there is no merit to it and it's just nonsense then how do you explain whitetail deer, they're all the same species right, can't mix breed with other ungulates, so why the such huge difference across the spectrum across the country on their weight, body mass, antler size, look at a whitetail from Manitoba Canada, vs a whitetail killed say in the Florida Everglades, ones huge in body and antler mass while the other is spindly built, take that same spindly built deer to Manitoba and feed it the exact same thing as a native deer and that Florida deer is going to continue to reproduce more spindly built deer, why because the genes the spindly deer carries come from its ancestors who have evolved and adapted to make it on what's available in their home environment, now you take that original spindly built deer to Manitoba and continue to breed its offspring for 3 or more generations in the northern environment and eventually they start evolving and changing the actual physical appearance to adapt to the environment, I promise it just didn't happen because that's the way things are, a study was done using wild caught fox who were born wild but had been bred and raised babies in captivity, the f1 offspring were raised around humans their entire lives but we're born from wild raised parents, even being around and interacting with humans from day 1 the f1s were still very much like their parents, the f2s, born from captive raised parents were more friendly and accepting towards humans but still very leery and spooky, the f3s, being the third generation  born and raised in captivity were much more accepting to humans and were able to be handled and taught to do certain task....

Take cattle from far north country that have been bred and raised up there for multiple generations, bring them to the Deep South and they are going to have a hard time, they will adapt and adjust some  but will be hampered by the environment the rest of their lives, in just one generation their offspring born in the southern climate will have no trouble as compared to what their parents did, and the cattle born down from the pair that came from the far northern climate will not face the same struggle, same exact genetics, no deviation from original genetic package but one struggles to perform in a foreign environment they are not biologically designed to flourish and thrive in, then the next generation doesn't have as many problem handling the same issues and the generation after that has even less than the first 2 before, why, bc their bodies are are changing on a cellular level to adapt and make use of the now native environment, cells that were activated and used to function and make it in a northern climate have now become dormant and the ones that are necessary to thrive in the southern climate are becoming activated because that what's needed to survive in a foreign environment, the result is a cellular change in the DNA of the now native cattle, who then pass that change onto their offspring and so on, if all dogs originated from the wolf then how in the heck can you explain the huge differences in all the various breeds, humans don't have the powers or abilities to abra cadabra change an animals physical shape, ENVIRONMENT,Mother Nature is always going to find away to exist and each organism whatever it maybe is going to flex, bend, change, whatever you want to call it to find a way to make wherever it may end up, all this rambling is just the tip of the ice burg, there's so much that is being discovered almost daily on the science of EPIgenetics and environmental influences across of areas of biology, were each our own individuals and have the right to choose to believe whatever we want, if you continue to believe it's just some scientific pipe dream then go right ahead, there's nothing wrong with that, but if you want to put forth a little effort to understand something maybe you'd realize that we've always seen examples of EPIgenetics right in front of us our entire lives and each  and everyone of us is the result of EPIgenetics  ourselves but don't realize it....

In laymans terms, "if you don't use it, you'll lose it", whatever that "it" maybe, and "you can lead a horse to water, (heck even put the trough right in front of him, )but you can't make him drink".....

[Judge peel]

Simple protein in take Terrain and climate. If a pregnant deer out runs a mountain lion don’t mean it’s  off spring will. I totally understand what there saying I just don’t believe it. The best science on earth is weather science and there just on the edge of understanding 10% of it. Every 30 or 40 yrs that goes by they discount what they previously thought. In the 80ds they said eggs and bacon where bad for you know it kecto diet lol. Most thing are only true if you believe it. I have found that to be the absolute truth in life


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[t-dog]

I believe all species evolve. Hogs, they tend to run more now than they did 30 years ago. In my opinion it makes sense. The hogs with the fight before flight mentality get caught and killed first. The next largest group of hogs to die are the dumb ones and then the slow ones. So with fewer of these three types breeding, naturally fewer of these three types are being born. So the flight before fight, intelligent, faster hogs are breeding hogs with the same characteristics. If you turn out a mean, eager to fight boar and he starts breeding sows, some of those offspring are going to be like him and like the sow. Him and the offspring like him are likely going to get killed or caught before the majority of the runners. After a couple generations those fighters are going to be bred out again. Southern cattle taken north where the winters are harsh are just like the fighting hogs. The northern cattle have more hair because the ones that had more hair were the ones that were able to survive. The smart hairy ones lived to reproduce while the less hairy, dumb ones died. I raised a family of catch dogs for years. They were very similar because I selected for type and similarity in style. They started very early and rarely had to be shown where the ear was. I don’t think was so because I let the mother catch ear while she was pregnant. I think it was so because I had selectively bred those type of dogs together over and over. Some studs are dominate but not most (dogs, horses, etc.). I don’t believe the freaks are any different. I think it’s just more obvious because there have more expectations and emphasis placed on them. Their daughters are going to be the reproducers like Goose said. Many, maybe even a majority of offspring are more similar to their grandparents than their parents. It’s exactly why we have to consider pedigrees immediately after we evaluate performance when choosing brood stock. Genetic selection is absolutely necessary to accomplish our breeding goals but that being said I don’t think it’s the same as epigenetics. I’m not sure how removed from one another they are. I don’t consider the examples I used to be epigentic related but plain genetic selection. I’m not sure if I truly believe in a lot of the epigenetic “theories”. I honestly need to do more reading about it myself. I do believe that the mother contributes certain genes to every puppy. That I consider to be epigentic and believable.

[The Old Man]

I have no basis on which to disagree with epigenetics, but I think the effects it has are minimal. What leads me to believe this is say, horses and dogs that their mother was not used ever, much less during pregnancy, nor fed anything other than a normal routine diet and they still produced quality offspring. I do see things "evolve" but it is slow and takes multiple generations without an outcross of some kind, and it would typically be a change in environment that required certain traits to survive naturally leading to a shift in the genes required for success. Those with the genes to survive and reproduce would eventually be the norm for that environment vs the ones that didn't have the proper genes would not "in numbers" survive to reproduce.

[Cajun]

Hi Goose. Again remind me to never get in a debate with you. lol You really missed your calling, you should have been a divorse lawyer.  The reason animals in the north are larger then the animals in the south is called Bergmann's Rule: The colder the climate , the bigger the body mass.  Thought you might like to add that to your repertoire. You were on the money on Secretariat. The daughters out of him were the real reproducers.

[Judge peel]

I think we have came up with ways to make us believe we are smarter then we really are and I think Epigenetic is one of them. Common sense tells me that. Now if you believe it and want to study it and it’s out come go ahead there are certainly worse things to believe in.


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[Reuben]

There is no doubt…the right breeding with the right genes is the best way to breed…genes are fixed just like DNA…you are born with that…that is what we will be so we select so we select accordingly…

Epigenetics is manipulating the environment to enhance the right genes or even turn on dormant genes and turn off or minimize other genes…

We know not to put a little pup in a bay pen with a big boar because if he gets hurt pretty bad then he might never bay again…if we wait until he is bigger we can put him with a bigger pup that bays good on a smaller hog…to increase his want to we might tie him outside the bay pen…once he is going crazy and slobber mouthed it is time to put him in the pen…we work on increasing the want in the pup…that’s the goal…
We do the right things at the right time to get the best from the pups…we want to increase the desire to get the job done…not decrease the desire by making mistakes due to ignorance…

This is how Epigenetics works…we change the environment to get positive results…we been doing this for many many years…we call it training, imprinting the pups…etc…etc…new times have new terminologies…

The scientist now call it Epigenetics…same thing except now they are starting to understand how it works…and they are creating environment changes around tumors blood cells, weather…you name it they are doing it…

The medical field used to experiment looking for a positive reaction from trying different drugs…now there are scientists who manipulate the environment to see what reaction they get and follow thru to see if it is multigenerational…it’s not just medical….this technology covers so many different areas…

We can take our hunting dogs to a higher level…many of us have been doing it without knowing anything about Epigenetics…

[Reuben]

I believe I wrote about this story on here some years ago…

we were having a birthday party for my grandson…he was about 5 or 6 at the time…and just now he has finished his 2nd year of college…at party time my other grandson showed up with his younger cousin named Kaiden who was about 4 years old at the time…

During the party kids were playing outside and they all came running in all excited except for Kaiden, he was kind of calm and not saying much…they said Kaiden was eating the Birdseye peppers…those are some really hot peppers so I didn’t think he was…I said he can’t be, they are too hot…but they sounded pretty convincing so I said go get some peppers and show me…they went to get some peppers and were back shortly…I said where are the peppers…Kaiden said I ate them…I said open your mouth I want to see…well his mouth and tongue were red with the little red peppers and also lots of seeds…he looked as if he was eating a lollipop or piece of fruit…just as calm and no big deal whatsoever…I made him stop on account I was afraid he would be sick…I couldn’t wait to talk to his mom…

His mom showed up a couple hours later…I told her what Kaiden ate and she said it’s no big deal…one day when he was sitting in the high chair he reached over and grabbed a jalapeño pepper and started eating it when he was about two years of age his mom said…

She also said Kaiden has been eating peppers ever since…I asked her if she had any theories or ideas as to why…she said she never ate peppers until she got pregnant with Kaiden and had to eat Jalapeños and kept them handy…she said she craved them really bad during pregnancy…she also said she thought that that is what caused him to like eating them…and without feeling the heat…

The environment in her digestive system most definitely changed…common sense says it was a domino effect or chain reaction that many things reacted to the radical change in the diet…

This was a very unique situation that I will never forget and it just made me want to learn more from it…

Some other person might not give it a second thought…

It is the same with our dogs…sometimes we see it clearly and others don’t or don’t care one way or another…that what makes this world go round and round…we’re all different because evolution molded us this way for a reason…if we were or are all the same we wouldn’t survive…

[Goose87]

Everyone take a step outside the box for minute and realize that your not going to see any major changes in litters of dogs from one generation to the next in our own kennels in each litter, it's a timely process that has to happen over a span of multiple generations before any sort of genetic mutation starts to take place and even then it takes a trained eye that's looking for it to even know how to notice it, Bergmanns Rule is the most common plain as day example we've all seen and just didn't know it, Judge all the things you just listed, protein intake, climate, such as that, correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't that all be attributed the ENVIRONMENT playing a crucial role, all of the listed have to be locally sourced from the environment, an alfalfa field in a northern state is going to have a much higher output of protein than a coastal Bermuda field in south ms, you care to take the time to look some while back I posted on here a topic titled for Reuben or something along those lines, it was a link to a show done by HBO called Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel, on that episode that documented a population of people living on the ocean in the South Pacific Ocean and survived by free diving and spearing fish, long story short this population of individuals have physically evolved to match their environment, so much so that it's become genetically encoded to their DNA and passed on to the following generations, that is what EPIgenetics is,  I don't think there can be any great significant change in a short span of time but I do believe that doing the little things like Reuben and others have said before does awaken, arouse, bring out, etc, certain instincts just a little more than their contemporaries of the same caliber and breeding, not so much that there's going to be a noticeable difference that most others besides the man who knows those particular dogs top to bottom inside and out for generations and generations back is going to be able to see, and let's be real, how many men can honestly say that they have that much knowledge of the dogs they own, I do believe that dogs bred, and hunted for a certain type of one particular game for multiple generations will become genetically inclined to prefer that certain type of game over anything else, the research, data, and results are easily accessed if we want to or even if we choose to believe it or not, could be worse there are folks out there who think Earth is flat....

[Goose87]

I believe I wrote about this story on here some years ago…

we were having a birthday party for my grandson…he was about 5 or 6 at the time…and just now he has finished his 2nd year of college…at party time my other grandson showed up with his younger cousin named Kaiden who was about 4 years old at the time…

During the party kids were playing outside and they all came running in all excited except for Kaiden, he was kind of calm and not saying much…they said Kaiden was eating the Birdseye peppers…those are some really hot peppers so I didn’t think he was…I said he can’t be, they are too hot…but they sounded pretty convincing so I said go get some peppers and show me…they went to get some peppers and were back shortly…I said where are the peppers…Kaiden said I ate them…I said open your mouth I want to see…well his mouth and tongue were red with the little red peppers and also lots of seeds…he looked as if he was eating a lollipop or piece of fruit…just as calm and no big deal whatsoever…I made him stop on account I was afraid he would be sick…I couldn’t wait to talk to his mom…

His mom showed up a couple hours later…I told her what Kaiden ate and she said it’s no big deal…one day when he was sitting in the high chair he reached over and grabbed a jalapeño pepper and started eating it when he was about two years of age his mom said…

She also said Kaiden has been eating peppers ever since…I asked her if she had any theories or ideas as to why…she said she never ate peppers until she got pregnant with Kaiden and had to eat Jalapeños and kept them handy…she said she craved them really bad during pregnancy…she also said she thought that that is what caused him to like eating them…and without feeling the heat…

The environment in her digestive system most definitely changed…common sense says it was a domino effect or chain reaction that many things reacted to the radical change in the diet…

This was a very unique situation that I will never forget and it just made me want to learn more from it…

Some other person might not give it a second thought…

It is the same with our dogs…sometimes we see it clearly and others don’t or don’t care one way or another…that what makes this world go round and round…we’re all different because evolution molded us this way for a reason…if we were or are all the same we wouldn’t survive…

Reuben, I can personally relate to this account, when my mother was in her 2nd and 3rd trimester during her pregnancy with myself she craved and ate ungodly amounts of watermelon and couldn't eat enough of it, could it  be her body was lacking something contained in the melons and it be a coincidence or not who knows but I can eat an entire watermelon in one sitting everyday, and I usually do average one melon a day while their in season and some days will be the only thing eat, I absolutely love watermelon and it has no ill effects on my digestive system like it does all those around me, I'm the only one in my family that never ever grows tired of eating it, could it have been my mothers consumption of them during pregnancy or just be shear happenstance, who knows......

[Judge peel]

Lol good stuff. I love watermelon myself eat it daily but I am a 1/4 Black


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[Reuben]

I would bet your mom was needing some nutrient or nutrients in the watermelon…