Son x mother

[williamsld]

Tdog I think that pup came out messed up because of the fact cranks mom was heavy line bred then the mother son cross on top of that

But there’s no history of bad bone disease or anything that I’m aware of on the moms side and I know he’s traced the line back to the 1920’s-30’s and he’s had them since the late 70’s early 80’s


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[The Old Man]

Just know you can't get out of them what's not in them, and what comes out of them was in there somewhere/back to the salt in the stew analogy.

[Reuben]

Old man...years ago I was told you can’t get better than what the dogs are...what you see is what you get...but through the generations I saw more hunt and more grit...so then I realized it is also about what is not seen in the bloodline that can and will show up...and in 7 generations I had 2 chocolate colored pups about 5 generations apart...didn’t keep either one...

There is something else that comes into play and the science is proving it to be true...it is called Epigenetics...the ability to turn some genes on and other genes off...

[t-dog]

My dad always said once it’s been put in there it can’t be erased, it’s always there. He said it may not show up this breeding or the next but more likely when you can least afford it to ( like when you are bred into a corner and don’t have many options).


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[Northstar]

"I believe" there is no difference genetically, I have not made either cross so my opinion is not based on first hand experience. The best  I could explain the failures in the crosses that failed would be the same as any other cross that failed some males or females do not reproduce an honest reflection of their strain, or there were recessive's in them that that when "paired" came out . That and accidental death is why I have always promoted breeding them early, they are not proven producers no matter how good they are on the ground, until bred and the offspring used.
Lets face it, if we could just breed a good one to a good one and be assured to get good ones, and then breed those good ones within the family and make them better and more consistent everyone would have an outstanding dog, and again lets face it, the truly outstanding dogs are rare.  I can't see that there is any particular magic-nor taboo cross in animal husbandry.

I also think the genes are basically the same whether male or female...the biggest difference is that the female carries the pups and they are connected to her...and they live with her at least the first 8 weeks of their lives...at a time when they are very impressionable and if the female is shy or over aggressive it could affect the pups...

I agree %100! I think handler sensitiveness and confidence is a imprinted tendency. It is given to the pups very early on and a hard one to fix.

[Northstar]

I say do it. You will know early on if it is too tight. First sign is small litters. I think bulldog her and chicken men are some of the best performance breeders and they bred tight as heck.

[Judge peel]

I have done it few times made dam good dogs but they both where dam good to start


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[l.h.cracker]

Williamsd sounds like the pup had rickets most likely and not a genetic deformation.

[williamsld]

Williamsd sounds like the pup had rickets most likely and not a genetic deformation.

Is that hereditary? Rickets is due to a lack of vitamin D right?


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[t-dog]

Cracker that does sound like she could’ve had the rickets.

Obviously there is no exact science. There are a lot of folks on here that hunt good dogs that have done it and been successful. I wasn’t one of the lucky ones that it worked for but sounds like it sure might work out for you slim.

Northstar I had a similar conversation yesterday about “old school” pit breeders and game chicken men. They were successful for sure. I think you could put race horse breeders and greyhound breeders in there too. The thing about all
of those is that they bred for 1 or 2 main traits. To me that is much easier to accomplish than what we as hunters are working towards because we have to breed for a multitude of traits. The more traits you seek the more complicated it is. That’s just my opinion again though. That’s not to say that we can’t learn from them or that a whole bunch of things don’t parallel each other just that we have more to consider in my way of thinking. The game chicken men were probably the next closest. I asked a VERY successful greyhound breeder once about his breeding strategy. He said that he bred whatever was the going thing. He had access to the best of the best most all the time so if so if flipper bred to shamu was the hot going cross then that’s what he did. He said but the winningest man in greyhound history had a strategy. He line bred for 3 generations then made an outcross then started it over again. His out cross was chosen because of its strong similarities to what he was raising or to try and fix a short coming that his had. It all depended on his evaluation of his dog that he was breeding. I would like to have met that fella.

[l.h.cracker]

It's not hereditary and alot of times it's caused by to high protein content in feed it can be cured by switching feed in a couple of days.

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[Reuben]

He said but the winningest man in greyhound history had a strategy. He line bred for 3 generations then made an outcross then started it over again. His out cross was chosen because of its strong similarities to what he was raising or to try and fix a short coming that his had. It all depended on his evaluation of his dog that he was breeding. I would like to have met that fella.

T-dog...quite a few breeders used this strategy...I used but bred my main stud with an outside female that already had some of my bloodline...if I liked the pups I bred a female back to a half brother...only did it twice in 20 years...

With tight bred dogs I bred my main stud dog to his daughter who was already related to him and then bred a granddaughter from that cross back to him...the main stud...I had 5 or 6 pups...all males and they well all good hunting dogs...one was too dominant even as a puppy...I didn’t have that trait in my dogs until he popped up...he was a very smart pup...always scored well on the testing...

[williamsld]

It's not hereditary and alot of times it's caused by to high protein content in feed it can be cured by switching feed in a couple of days.

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I sure wish I would’ve known that prior that’s good information thank you sir!


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[The Old Man]

Generally speaking if you feed an average quality dog food and the pups are  getting in the sunshine you won't have rickets.    If you are really pushing puppies nutritionally "more often in larger leggier breeds" you can have them outgrow themselves, that is their bones are growing faster than  their muscles, tendons, and ligaments can keep up and it will cause them to be crooked legged appearing to have rickets.

I think that is why there are so many performance and race horse colts broke down, 2/3 yr olds  are too big and strong for their maturity levels. Most of the endurance horse competitions have a minimum age of 5 yrs old. Way back in time they usually didn't break horses until 4 yrs old they were largely range raised not pampered and pushed from weaning on.

[Northstar]

Cracker that does sound like she could’ve had the rickets.

Obviously there is no exact science. There are a lot of folks on here that hunt good dogs that have done it and been successful. I wasn’t one of the lucky ones that it worked for but sounds like it sure might work out for you slim.

Northstar I had a similar conversation yesterday about “old school” pit breeders and game chicken men. They were successful for sure. I think you could put race horse breeders and greyhound breeders in there too. The thing about all
of those is that they bred for 1 or 2 main traits. To me that is much easier to accomplish than what we as hunters are working towards because we have to breed for a multitude of traits. The more traits you seek the more complicated it is. That’s just my opinion again though. That’s not to say that we can’t learn from them or that a whole bunch of things don’t parallel each other just that we have more to consider in my way of thinking. The game chicken men were probably the next closest. I asked a VERY successful greyhound breeder once about his breeding strategy. He said that he bred whatever was the going thing. He had access to the best of the best most all the time so if so if flipper bred to shamu was the hot going cross then that’s what he did. He said but the winningest man in greyhound history had a strategy. He line bred for 3 generations then made an outcross then started it over again. His out cross was chosen because of its strong similarities to what he was raising or to try and fix a short coming that his had. It all depended on his evaluation of his dog that he was breeding. I would like to have met that fella.

I have done with hunting dogs for about 18 years with some success. I pride myself on precent of workers. I just took what was learned from gamedogs and transferred it to hunting dogs.
  I hate to speak on my success but once you have a primary goal then the traits you are looking for stick to that.
The thing forget is when line breading you get more of the good but also more of the bad fraught if they line up.
Greyhound breeders follow game bird breeders train of thought and cull about as much.

[jerryg]

I was always told father to daughter and never son to mother. Since my best blood tracking dog (female) got cancer, i was told i should have her spayed. I bred her one last time and bred her back to her son.  Well, all the pups I got came out deformed, mental or physical issues. Kicked myself in the ass!

Jerryg


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[Slim9797]

There’s 2 forsure a buddy of mine has gonna be alright, they’re baying everything, hogs and cows, treeing cats, and they’re damn salty at 6ish months old on some yearling cattle. I have been using my gyp sparingly, just been hard at it 7 days a week with new job last 2 months, but she’s coming along fine, baying and running hogs with her momma when I’ve gotten to take them. Buddy out of Kennedy likes his male a lot, haven’t check on him a while but I’m betting that boy will get it out of that pup if it’s there to be had. Sketch is proving she can produce quality and quantity.


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[Slim9797]

https://vimeo.com/567865484 if they don’t turn out to be anything else, they’re good made. These 3 are going to work. These belong to 2 buddies, one of these days I’ll get back to finding some time to jack with my pup and maybe get me a real string built back up.


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[The Old Man]

Good Looking Pups, and appear to be fireballs. I have often read where folks say the female has more influence on pups because she carries and nurses them, I consider that to be an environmental influence and to be almost completely false. If weaned at an appropriate time she will not have any more influence than any other dog they are closely associated with.    Buuuut all mammals receive their mitochondrial dna from their mother only, so if there are any performance traits attached to the mitochondrial dna they are passed to the offspring only from her which could give the female an advantage. All that I have ever been able to find out seems that the mitochondrial dna is more closely associated with health issues be they good or bad.

[Slim9797]

As you would hope with as tight as they are bred. These pups are as a whole exactly what this line of dogs have been and are supposed to be as far as build mentality color and attitude. Now only time will tell if they got the handle and hunt that’s gotta come along with all that other stuff If they want to look through a collar past 2 years old


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