Breeding Methods To Tighten Blood

[Austesus]

Hey guys, I’m starting this thread so that I don’t see-rail the “pit-cur mixes” thread. I’ll start by providing some background on these dogs I’m working with.

The original male - Bo is the original sire. He is a papered Ladner BMC that my buddy started, trained, and kept on his yard for quite a few years. He was a cold nosed dog with more bottom than most people, including myself, would ever want. There have been many a time where a farmer picked him up 10+ miles from where his track was lost. The very first time I went hog hunting was behind him and he ran a hog for 12 hours, zig zagging back and forth over the river and through some really nasty terrain until we finally called him off after not getting the hog to stop. This was in an area that was hunted 12 hours a day 7 days a week and was known for some of the hardest running hogs around. He was open with a soft bark every 20-30 seconds and was a pretty loose baying dog. He was referred to as a superstar by men with much more dog experience than me and had numerous offers of $5,000 for him that were turned down. He was also a solid producer and has sired some really great dogs. The last I heard he was blind and still hunting 800 yards out and stopping hogs. Here are a few pictures of him.





The original female - Black Betty was the female thrown to him to create what everyone refers to as Bo Betty’s. I don’t have as much info on her, as I never personally got to hunt behind her before she died. From what I’ve been told she was as good of a RCD as you could ask for, and was around 75lbs. The story goes that the first time she was hunted was when she was 8 months old and she ran down a deer and killed it. She killed a lot of the hogs she caught before anyone could get to them. (We have to kill everything we catch here so that wasn’t a problem, I know for some of you guys that would be a negative.) I was told she comes from some old blood by the name of Wooten (?). Her lineage is supposed to go back to some old fighting lines. Seeing as how 99% of her offspring have been killed while still locked on to a hog and often times standing in their own guts, I don’t doubt that she was a true game dog. This is the only picture I could find of her.


The Bo Betty cross - these two dogs were bred 3 times. Out of those 3 litters every pup that lived to mature made good to great dogs. Probably 25% of them were killed when they were still under 2 years old. The vast majority were 100% catch and were suicidal. My old lead dog Dum Dum was a male from the 3rd litter. There were two times that he didn’t immediately catch out. One was the first time he came across a whole sounder. I heard him chop a few times and thought he must’ve gotten wrecked by a boar. By the time I got there I figured out that he had just been confused for a second and he had already eared up on a nice boar. The second time was shortly before his death, he was getting a little smarter. He stopped a small (150ish pound) boar with some big shanks but himself and in a nasty spot. The boar had knicked him and he backed up and let out one single bark and once he saw other dogs he caught out.

Out of all of the pups there was only one that wasn’t 100% silent, Moyo. He was fast enough that it didn’t matter, he stopped most hogs he started. He unfortunately was killed when he was around 2-2.5 years old if I recall correctly. The rest of them won’t bark at all behind a hog. They all came out looking like clones as well.

The two that I owned were from the final litter. Dum Dum and Mine. Both of them would hunt in circles at 300 yards. If they passed 345ish they were running a track. Those two dogs produced a good bit of hogs for me and really made me love the dog work. They were all of my hunting buddies favorite dogs too lol. Unfortunately Dum Dum was killed by my bulldog at the house in bad series of events that were a big learning lesson for me. After that his sister was retired to save the blood. As of right now there are only two females that are still alive from the original 3 litters. Mine, and a female that was sold to a guy who burned bridges with everyone I associate with. So, Mine is the last living female from the original crosses as far as I’m concerned. She was bred one time by accident to my old bull dogs brother and the one pup that lived is a hell of a RCD at only 38ish pounds. Punk is almost a clone of her mom except for the color of her coat.

This past year I found out about a dog I didn’t know existed. There was a female from the 2nd litter named Nala, she was a jam up dog. The guy that owned Bo took her back to him and produced a dog named Cash. A guy I know just bought Cash from his previous owner a few months ago. He sent me a message and next thing you know we were locking up Cash and Mine. Cash is her nephew as well as her half brother. I have not personally hunted with the dog, but men that I trust have spoken very very highly of him. He was wrecked by a big boar and the previous owner retired him to being a farm dog. The guy that has him know has been hunting him even with one of his back legs having a severed Achilles’ tendon and not working, and he has been producing hogs left and right. I have heard from multiple people that this dog is one of the best they’ve hunted behind. If all goes well this litter will produce some great dogs and bring more of the blood back to work with.

Dum Dum -





Mine -




Dum Dum and Mine -


Punk (Mine’s accidental daughter) on her first hog -


Moyo -





Nala -



Cash (Nala line bred back to Bo) -


The future of this blood, Cash x Mine -



My mentor started this blood, and trusted me with it. Now I want to do my best to tighten and perfect it. Mine belongs to me, and is hopefully about to drop pups in the next few months. They were locked up about 2 weeks ago now. Cash will still be available for breeding if he stays alive. He’s got a pretty bad track record of getting injured. Mine will never hunt again. She’s proven herself, so now she’s being kept for the blood. I think I’ll only be able to keep one pup, so I’m planning on a female. The rest will go to trusted friends so I should have access to breed back to any of them.

For those of you guys that have created and maintained a tight line of dogs, what would be your next step? Of course that is on the hope that this litters turns out dogs worthy of breeding. If you’ve read this whole novel and made it this far, thanks! Lol.


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[t-dog]

It’s early on in establishing a family from this cross. One of your best tools is to sit down with pen and paper and make some lists. One list is to right down what you are wanting to produce in style and type. Another list needs to be dogs that you have breeding access to out of this family. List the owner, list the dogs size and body type, list their style and even grade their style. By grade I mean on a scale of 1-10, 10 being the best, grade the attributes that are important to you. An example would be:

Dum Dum (male)
Bo x Betty
Owner - Myself
Color - Black
Was this dog was the norm of the litter/ or the exception/ or somewhere in the middle in style and ability

Body type - square head with decent muzzle length. Square symmetry with high tight flanks and deep, well sprung ribs. Muscular with decent leg ( neither exceptionally long or short).

Style - extremely rough a 9 on a scale of 1-10. Only barked a two hogs in his career or would be a ten.

Nose - 7
Bottom- 7/8
Brains - 9
Disposition- 9

Faults - couldn’t find hogs when there were non to be found. Should’ve invented one if he was serious about finding one.

Do each dog like this. You have to be able to be honest about each dog no matter the sentimental attachments. Some faults can be compensated for depending on what they are and how severe. I don’t care how related they are, every dog is not going to be the same quality, not every dog is going to turn out. Look at the Old Man’s young plott gyp that he’s wanting to send down here to me because he doesn’t want to send her to the Louisiana swamps because she isn’t a lab. All of her kin are hard footed hustlers. She too is a hustler but lacks the feet to do well in the rocky hills he hunts. She is one out a whole bunch but it goes to show there are always subtle differences from dog to dog even in an established line. She may or may not pass that characteristic on to her pups but why chance it’s if she has a sister that doesn’t have her problem and is of about the same caliber? She’ll do great things down here in flat Texas I’m sure. You are in a corner as I see it already. Your gene pool is very small so you don’t have much if any wiggle room. I see you having to bring in some outside blood  to continue this project and what you bring in will have to be dependent on what you are trying to accomplish in style and type and where the strengths and weaknesses of your current dogs are. If they are exactly what you want then you probably need to search hard for something that is as similar as you can get to them to cross into them. If they are a little lacking in an area then find something that could strengthen that weakness. I would recommend a family and not a single scatter bred dog for this. I would probably use a couple of dogs from an outside family and I would probably use a male and female. You could completely different results depending on what you use male/ female and you may not be able to tell any difference. You have to remember that at the end of the day, breeding is a crap shoot. All you can do with strategy and pedigrees is try to improve your odds of success. The rest of it is up to Mother Nature. So judge your pups strictly, keep them close so you can evaluate them with your own eyes. Don’t take the word of anyone else unless you know they have a stricter standard or is a better dog person. If 3 people watch a dog hunt and evaluate it, you will likely get 3 different evaluations. Being that it’s your breeding program, they need to fit your wants. Be smart enough to listen to other evaluations though. Do these things before you decide what your next breeding is. I’ve had the family I hunt for 25+ years. I NEVER think they are perfect or that they are exactly what I want them to be but I am proud of them and I know that slight tweaking is all I need to do with each breeding to make them better. I also have the next 2 or 3 breedings in mind before they happen. Sometimes those change according to failures or style differences or a different need that had developed. I have raised several very solid litters, but the litter of 7 month olds that I just raised are on course to be my best yet. They are shaping up to be the closest thing to my ideal type yet. There were 5 males and 3 females. All of them are put together very nice and seem to really want to work. I know one of them has found a hog twice already. He was turned out while the guy was mowing so he could run around. After not seeing him for about 20 minutes he went looking for him and the pup had a 3 legged sow bayed down behind his deer stand. The next time the guy had someone feeding for him while he was gone on vacation. The kid didn’t latch his kennel back good and the next day when he came to feed the pup was gone. He looked and looked for him and finally heard him. He went to him and he was down on the creek baying a boar hog and had already been cut. I’m getting the same feed back and videos from everyone I placed them with. The one I considered a cull was maybe the most beautiful of all and even she is going to make a dog. She just had a crappy personality (shy). I gave her to the biggest, ugliest sucker you can imagine so I’m sure that doesn’t make matters any better. He told me the other day she still is a little leary when he calls her. I told heck she thinks a Sasquatch is calling her. She doesn’t know if she’s gonna be pet or eaten! I hope this long winded advice helps. Good luck!


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[The Old Man]

With their record for having short lives you'd better keep more than one and hunt them separately or it will soon be back to the drawing board. It is really hard to keep and maintain a "strain" of dogs unless you keep several on the yard besides those you stash with friends.

[Austesus]

Thanks for the reply T-Dog! It definitely is a hard predicament right now with the lack of dogs still alive or available to breed in to. I think it is due to nobody in SC using dogs for a living (that I know of) but guys around here just don’t breed tight or have families and lines of dogs. At most you may see someone throw a pup back to her dad, but then that’s where it stops. I’m the only person I know that is trying to create a true line. Everyone else just scatter breeds random dogs that they like. I have two male pups off of my litter from last year. The parents were un related. The mom was a 1/2 pit X 1/2 walker that is scatter bred as far as I know. The dad is a 3/4 east Texas black mouth and 1/4 bird dog that came from Justin Corbell from on here. This male was from an outcross he made from his family of dogs.

The two male pups I kept off of that litter have been awesome so far. They’ll be a year old on September 10th. They have what is lacking in the Bo Betty’s (in my opinion.) They have real long legs, real long heads, long necks, and tons of endurance and drive. Dum Dum and Mine’s faults are that after two hard days of hunting they’re completely burnt out and sore. A hard day of hunting and they are pretty well spent. These pups I’ve ran hard and they just don’t stop or get tired. Also I wanted more size in them. These pups will probably end up being a lean 70-75lbs. Plenty of intelligence too. I would like to bring them in to the Bo Betty’s but the hesitation is obviously with them being a crap shoot for genes since they are bred from completely unrelated dogs. Here’s a picture of Red and Ranger. Pictures don’t do them any justice for how tall these pups are.



That’s a great idea with breaking the dogs down on a list. I will start working on that immediately. Like you, I am trying to plan crosses ahead of time by several generations. If nothing else, it’s fun brainstorming for me. Catching a hog is just the result of the actual fun for me, my passion is in the dogs!


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[Austesus]

Old Man, I plan to keep a few put up once they have proven themselves. A lot of the guys that ran the ones that were killed never put vests on them, which is partly why they’ve been killed in my opinion. These dogs need a strike vest at a minimum because they’ll catch rank boars even by themselves. Most of them were started real young. I’ve seen them catch boars at only 6 months old which also contributed to some early deaths. I don’t plan to start them that early knowing how rough they are. The two that I got were already a year old and heavily started when I got them.


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[Austesus]

*to clarify* I ran my two for a long time in only cut colors. Dum Dum started getting cut on his chest sometimes when he would catch a rank boar so he hunted in a vest at the end of his life. His sister just had a good catching style I suppose because she very rarely got cut and when she did it was always a very minor cut. Those dogs were early on when I first started hunting. All of my rough dogs are now in vests. At this point I would not run one without a vest.


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[Rough curs]

Im not smart , just my opinion. You started with a bulldog and bmc. You have talked about bringing in different dogs for breeding. Hound cross and bmc birddog cross. You have just added or 3 more breeds. I would think you need to think about what way or what you want you want out of these dogs. Someone else said on here" once  you add salt to the stew you can never get it out."  I would just think about what you are wanting and slow down with breeding. Again just my thoughts.

[Reuben]

For a start I would breed the best daughter from Mine and Cash back to Cash…

I would breed the best male or another daughter back to a relative…even a distant relative that hunts the same with same style of grit…get one of those pups and breed back to a 3/4 Cash…or use mine instead of Cash…a 3/4 Mine

[Austesus]

RoughCurs,

Thanks for the reply. I did not make the original BMC and Pit cross, I just really liked the dogs produced from that cross since I had the opportunity to hunt behind quite a few of them and then was given the opportunity to own some of them. My goal is really to just continue producing dogs that mirror the original cross, but since they stemmed from two completely different dogs I’m trying to figure out how to branch out the family tree in a manner that will provide more dogs to work with that are all related and stay tight. All while keeping the same traits and not getting back too heavy towards one side or the other.

The hound/pit/bmc/bird pups I have were not bred with the intention on crossing back in to these dogs. I just liked both of the parents and wanted to see if they would throw good pups. I have been really happy with the two males I kept, and they surprised me by coming out bigger than both the parents. If I were to breed them in to these BMC/pit dogs it would be as an outcross and to bring a little more leg and size in to them. Those two male pups have also had a lot of drive and some really good endurance even though they’re just under a year old. Of course my hesitation would be bringing in the unknown variables since they’re so scatter bred. As of right now though, my focus is only on the black dogs for breeding until that line is tightened up and established, and a real family of dogs. These pups still have a ways to go before I would consider them for any kind of breeding, and my focus with them is just giving them the opportunity to become good dogs.


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[Austesus]

Reuben,

Thank you for the tips. As of right now I’m definitely planning on taking a female pup back to Cash if all goes well. Of course that is on the hope that this litter proves to be a good one. If all goes well and Mine took, I should have pups hitting the ground around the end of September. All of the pups should be staying close and getting divvied out to some of my buddies that will hunt them hard, so that I can hopefully watch them all develop and hunt behind them so I have a firsthand account of what they are each doing. If this litter comes out anything like the original litters, I should be in good standing.


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[chestonmcdowell]

Yeah it's pretty fun and interesting planning crosses and looking ahead. The two pups I have off my dog ranger one is 50% pointer the other is 50% pit. Hopefully they make the mark. I wish I could find a nice female bmc. The only one I have is either to mean for the males to mount or they know she's a bitch lol. Thought about crossing ranger to this bluetick I have but I haven't singled her out yet but a few times. Imo it's all about having one dog you love and keep breeding him to dogs that fill in his blanks. Now what happens after all is said and done years down the road hopefullyyou have exactly what you need. Does anyone notice that black pups have less cull rates?

[Arkansashunter96]

Ranger over pit x. She's a tiny package but I like what I've seen

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[Arkansashunter96]

Im hoping one day I can finally have a liter of half ranger .16 pit .16 pointer .16 hound. Really would like to find a july. Finding a way to keep it like your trying to do. When I get done Hoping to have the best dog box crapper feet warmer dogs this side of the red River. The pointer in the pic thinks he's a catchdog and always has his head in the wind.

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[Judge peel]

The higher % of bulldog you mix in there the more independent the dog will be. This is aimed at catching. The less bulldog in the mix the more of a team player the dog will be. Probably the reason they all got killed. I have always had super rough dogs but I don’t like bulldog crosses cuz they tend to be dumb until death


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[Reuben]

We crossed bull dog and Mt cur…the Mt cur were very gritty and hard hunting with lots of bottom…they hunted fairly close but would range as far as needed to find a hog…

These dogs were awesome except they didn’t bark…a quarter bulldog would probably been best…

[Reuben]

Austin…
If these black dogs were mine I would look really hard at the sire and dam of the future puppies…I would also look very hard at the sire and dams parents and grandparents and then make a decision based on that information as to which side to breed most from…if you like the sire side best then breed more towards his side and vise-versa…

I would also keep what I think are the best 3 or 4 pups for as long as possible…testing nose, ranging and other traits…cut back a pup at 4 months another at 6 and again at 8 months…by then you will probably have a really nice pup…

Females are great to keep for breeding…but you can use a male more often in the breeding pen…

The idea is to get several more generations of top dogs…if you select properly and see that there are a high percentage of good pups in each litter then it is time to move to the next generation for breeding…

The idea here is that you evolved to the next generations in a short time period…
At that time you look back at the pedigree and it will be stacked with top dogs…

I call that purifying the bloodline…once you get to that point there is no reason to turn the dogs over…just breed the same dogs when you need more pups…otherwise you will breed yourself into a corner and will need an outcross…that is when a male comes in handy…outcross a male with the best credentials to a female somewhat related with excellent credentials and pick a pup to breed back into your line or if more pups are available breed to the best of those…a bigger choice for selecting a breeder is nice to have available to you…

Your breeding program can only be as good as you select…training correctly to bring out the best is just as important…the wrong training can ruin a top quality pup and a great opportunity just passed a breeder by…
Knowing what a good hunting dog is is the first thing to know when breeding better dogs…and having a solid plan on what and why to breed is important to know as well…

Many breeders will have 4 generations in 20 years…if done right you can have 3 generations on one side and 4 or the other side in five years…and you will be producing a high percentage of good pups…

I bred a line of dogs in this way back when I was younger…

[Austesus]

Cheston, I like the looks of that black dog. I have a soft spot for red, yella, or black! Haha. I hope you have some good luck with the ones you have.

Judge, actually all of the dogs born from the original 3 litters would hunt very good with other dogs. They were really good about honoring another dog and packing up, and mostly were hunted as a pack, not 1-2 dogs out like a lot of the guys that run cur dogs. I’ve gotten to where I enjoy hunting with less dogs these days, it’s much less stressful if I’m hunting near roads or by myself.

Reuben,
I wanted to breed back towards Cash since he was double bred with the original Sire, but unfortunately he got killed Friday night. I haven’t gotten too much info yet but it sounds like he had a heat stroke after being caught on a rank boar for too long before the guys could get to him. Im praying that Mine took and is pregnant, I guess we will know here soon.

I wanted to breed towards Cash because he retained the hunt, nose, and bottom of the BMC side, as well as all of the grit and the silence of the pit side. I’m going to be pretty limited as to my options now. If she did take and the pups turn out to be what I’m hoping for, then I will have to take a male back to Mine and/or do a full brother to full sister breeding. I do have the one living dog that Mine produced in an accidental litter and while she is a very nice dog to hunt with, she’s more of a RCD that will just stick with a lead dog. Her dad was my old bulldogs brother. That line of bulldogs has a tendency to act a little funny with people, as far as cowering down when you go to pet them, which is a huge pet peeve of mine so I don’t want to introduce that trait in to these black dogs.

The only other option I have is a half brother to Mine that is a full BMC, sharing the same sire and his dam was another Ladner BMC that was a little shorter range and a little more gritty than the sire. I stopped hunting him when he was young because he was trashing and opening up on deer, which was making it hard for me to catch educated pigs when I had nothing but young inexperienced dogs. I started taking only silent dogs so that if they trashed they didn’t run the hogs out of the area. In that particular area the hogs would run for the high heavens if they heard a dog because they were hunted 5-6 days a week for years and years. Every once in a while I will let him tag along on a hunt, and he does have a pretty good nose and has found a few hogs, but I would have to hunt him hard to judge wether or not he was worthy of breeding. Even though he is either 5 or 6 years older now, he is still only a started dog since I just never take him. The negatives are that he will open up some which I don’t care for, and both him and his other littermate brother will have diarrhea when I take them on hunts and are constantly stopping to poop every time you turn around. Since both of them do it I figured he may pass that on to pups, which is just a negative trait in my eyes.

If Mine ends up not being pregnant, I may reevaluate and try to hunt Scooter (the half brother BMC) more and see what kind of dog he makes. I guess it would be a crab shoot if the pups come out open, and how catchy they are. My original thoughts years ago were that doubling up on the traits for being open and baying would make the pups lean that way, but cash is proof that when doubled up on his dad, he retained the catch and the silence, so maybe that’s how Mine x Scooter would go as well. That would introduce Scooters mom, Molly, as another variable too.


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[Judge peel]

Dang right I hunt two dogs most of the time 


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[Austesus]

Judge, it sure beats having to round up 5-6 dogs that are scattered throughout the swamp. I feel like it’s easier to watch the dog work as well


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[Judge peel]

Ain’t nothing wrong with a pack of dogs I just like less for the reasons you stated


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