Breeding Methods To Tighten Blood

[t-dog]

Austesus, in my opinion you are already in a corner. One your family isn’t tight bred yet. They are consistent in type and performance style which is a plus. So if you breed to your scatter bred male, you are only slightly tighter bred on one side.  He may be a leggy dog, but is he the norm of what he comes from or the exception. If he’s the exception you don’t what you’re going to get and even if his type is the norm, is his style? Was one parent catchy and the other just the opposite? In my experience, puppies have a real strong tendency to revert back to grandparents. If your pups grandparents are all unrelated then the only way you can hope to know which style and type they are going to be is to have bred like dogs to like dogs. By that I mean at least 2 or 3 of the 4 grandparents were very similar. When genes are scattered you may have 4 pups in a litter and could possibly end up with 4 different types and styles. Likely you won’t know which ones are which until they are bigger which means you have to gamble on which ones to keep or keep them on your feed bill longer. Another option is breeding your females to outside stud via AI. You can get chilled semen from a couple different studs off someone that has a family of dogs you like and you could be on your way again. Just a thought. This is only my way of thinking. There are guys on here have forgotten more about breeding than I know.


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[t-dog]

I can think of 2 or 3 families in this board that and one or two that aren’t that would probably serve you well.


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[Austesus]

The old man,

 I will try that if she gets bred again and see if it helps her. Thank you for the advice, I have read good things about you and your dogs. I have enjoyed reading the posts by yourself, Bigo, and Skoalbandit. Those cur dogs sound like some absolute go getters.

T-Dog,

I had not thought about getting AI stud from someone, that would actually benefit me a lot if I could find good family of dogs that would compliment this one. I think it’s a cultural difference with there not being any line breeding or inbreeding here, I suspect that it’s because SC wasn’t a state with a lot of cattle hunting in the early days and not many people would have used a dog for a living back in the early days. There are plenty of guys with jam up dogs around me, but they’re mostly scatter bred from random dogs. I was thinking about the AI today and have decided that if the sole male of this litter lives I’m going to get him collected and stored before I start him in the woods, that way I don’t run the risk of losing the last male if he gets killed young. So far all four of them are doing great. My wife has made fun of me because I have a whole puppy nursing station setup in the den lol. I’ve got a scale to weigh them every day to make sure I’m giving them the proper amount of formula. They’re steadily getting bigger and stronger.


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[WayOutWest]

Way to keep them going. I had a friend hauling a litter to work in a cooler to feed them while at work.

[t-dog]

I admire your dedication for sure. Collecting him would be wise.


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[cajunl]

I think it’s a cultural difference with there not being any line breeding or inbreeding here

There is not a lot doing it anywhere. I'm sure they are around. It takes tons of Hard work, commitment, money, and a lifetime to do it right.

IMO. The guys you are looking for are not going to talk to you, or help you much when all you want is to cross unproven dogs into dogs they have dedicated their life to create. They know it takes a LONG LONG time to breed out the bad, or breed in the good traits you want.

Not trying to discourage you in anyway. Just may rethink how to get to your goal.

You seem to be working hard at it.

Good luck.....You have the obsession!

[NLAhunter]

I sure hope they turn out for what you looking for after going through what you been though with em I know like Cajunl said it probably be hard to find a family like what you looking for to bred to because chances are they ain't going to bred to nothing that they know nothing about they might would if you hunted with em got to know em and they got to see your dogs work and they thought they might improve on something they got but chances are slim on that are you looking or breeding for pretty much running catch dogs?

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[NLAhunter]

I know some boys around here they had a bunch of really rough to just straight catch dogs and they kept a sure enough pile of dogs between the 2 of em and they never did really get a family of dogs bred like that because here they get about everything they had killed every year at that time and still now not as much now as then but lot people cut and mark hogs they get on big hog and take them little while to get there they would be wiped out so they couldn't never keep enough to raise a family of em but they took cur dogs are hounds that would hunt and was really rough already and crossed bulldogs on em and they kept a pile of really rough to straight catch dogs and they caught lot hogs with em but kept lot of messed up dogs and never really had a family of dogs but always had what they was looking for in a dog

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[Austesus]

Lol the cooler is actually a pretty neat idea. Luckily I’m slow at work right now so I’m going in first thing in the morning to do a little bit of paperwork and then at the house to watch the pups. They’re a lot of work that’s for sure.

And you have a good point Cajun, that was initially why I haven’t tried to track down anyone that has their own line of similar dogs. I know a lot of guys can be reserved about their blood and don’t want other people to get it. The men like yourself that have successfully bred families and lines for years have earned a lot of respect in my book, and I’m glad to have the forum to be able to get insight and advice from y’all. My passion truly is in the dogs. I really don’t care about killing hogs anymore, I always let someone else kill them. I just like to observe and analyze the dogs and I like to video the bay or the catch so that I can go back and assess what each dog is doing the entire time. I have also got in to the habit of keeping a journal and writing the details of every hunt I go on so that I can track progress and see patterns. I know how detrimental kennel blindness can be, so I figure that if I have a written log I can refer back to, it’s a lot harder for me to convince myself that a dog is doing better than it actually is.

And yes these dogs catch but work like true strike dogs. They still have a fairly cold nose because of Bo. They will typically take the hottest track they come across though, and they like to wind and run head up. They’re dead silent and it is extremely rare for one not to catch. On a true rank boar that’s got a lot of size to him you may see one backup, but I’ve watched the mom to these pups catch a 375ish lb boar and he flipped her up over the top of some corn stalks, she hit the ground and immediately tried him and got thrown again. Ended up shooting the hog as soon as he threw her the second time. They will typically hunt between 300-500yds out in circles, checking in periodically. If one doesn’t come back for a while they have probably slipped off on a track or winding. My experience has been that we normally catch hogs much closer with these dogs because they will slip off and catch the hog laid up in his bed and there’s no chase involved usually. I personally think that some guys get steered away from rough dogs because they tried dogs that counterfeit rough. Meaning they want to bite and grab on a hog but if the hog puts up a fight they’ll let go, or they’re agitating him darting in and out grabbing hair instead of just letting him bay. I would be completely fine if one of these bayed a hog if it was standing still, but the second they try to catch I expect them to stay hooked like a true catch dog. My mindset is that if they’re going to grab the hog, commit to it. They are typically all ear dogs but the mom to these pups will catch on the snout sometimes. The downside is obviously how hard it is to keep them alive. I prefer to run them with other truly rough dogs so they aren’t caught by themselves while other dogs are just biting and letting go. Not everyone’s cup of tea but there’s something about a rank dog that I love. Maybe it’s the warrior spirit. When they pop treed on the garmin it is a race to get to them as fast as possible, which has led to some of them dying when they ran a hog a few miles and caught it by themselves and either overheated from being caught too long or got killed. I personally never had my two get hurt bad. They have had minor cuts but nothing serious. My old male Dum Dum would catch the ear and turn so he was facing the same direction as the hog with their sides touching. I couldn’t figure out how he always escaped getting cut even when on some good teeth where other dogs got worked over pretty good, and then I had the chance to watch him hold a 225lb boar solo one day. Every time the hog turned to try and cut him he would just spin with him and never got touched. They are rough as Cobb but they are intelligent as well and tend to catch with a good style. I think the most similar type of dog would probably be some of the Florida curs that I have heard of. The mom to this litter has never barked nor bayed that I’m aware of. Dum Dum let out a few chops once at a sounder (before catching that 225lb boar) and I think it was because he had never seen a sounder before and was surprised. The second time was shortly before his death. He stopped a little 150lb boar that was rank with some sharp teeth, the boar gave him a little tiny cut on his shoulder and he backed up and let out a single bark. I honestly thought he had been wrecked when I heard the bark. Other dogs got to the hog and he was caught solid when I got there. They were in some real thick briars and I believe that he backed up and waited until he saw another dog to catch. I would actually like to see more of that in these dogs, so that hopefully they stay alive longer. With this litter leaning more towards Bo, I am hoping there will be a touch of bay in them. Bo wouldn’t hardly put teeth on a hog, but so far everything that has come from his cross with Black Betty has retained the catching trait. Her genes must’ve been very potent because 9/10 pups from every litter and even subsequent litters that some people had breeding the original pups to other dogs, they all come out almost like clones. They are very consistent, which is almost odd to me since both parents were different and no relation whatsoever


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[Austesus]

NLA, it’s not often that I hit big teeth in these swamps. We do sometimes but catch a lot more shoats and sows. I talked with a few buddies and believe I will be able to work with them for all of us to keep and breed these dogs so that hopefully we can keep enough alive to keep moving forward. Mine will never go to the woods again, she’s proven and more valuable to me for pups now. And I will make sure to get some males collected


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[NLAhunter]

Yea I don't care much for rough dogs and like you said I sure ain't going to deal with no bay buster that runs in a nips and bites at a bayed hog till he runs that's quick way to death at my place ain't going deal with that for sure

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[Goose87]

Austin there's just as many ways and methods to go about setting a family of dogs up as there ways to blow money, I, sure your starting to see that the two go hand in hand lol, seriously thought it's great to have a plan and even greater to see your enthusiasm in taking on this task, I'll be the elephant in the tea parlor, don't take this the wrong way but is something  to chew on, I know you've got the gumption in you to do it based off your prior experiences, it's an indescribable feeling creating a life, but also comes with a heavy responsibility, are you willing to take it if for whatever reason may arise, it's a tough pill to have to swallow to have to end a life you created, nurtured, bonded with, and became friends with, but something that is inevitable, now about your next planned breedings, in reality exactly how many well thought out plans ever actually goes as planned, now factor in how the laws of inheritance and it makes for some head scratching later on, it's great to have a plan to do this or do that, make this cross then breed back to this dog and back to this aunt or uncle, it's good to have your mind on the future but if it were that simple we'd already had the superior dog, the best breeding method is to cross two dogs that you like for whatever reason and think they would pair good, that's step one, until you have raised the pups and have them in the woods and see how each one performs to your liking, some pups are going to lean toward one side of their ancestry more so than the other, now once you've determined which pups will make it to the next step evaluate what made them successful in producing game, and base your next mating off two dogs that are very similar in style and performance, remember the ones who are productive, when your first starting to build your line from your situation only choose those who can get it done to carry on the family, all sentimental and emotional feelings about particular individuals has to go out the window and you have to be brutally honest with yourself, any weak links from the start will eventually cause your chain to brake when the pressures start getting applied, I'm sure you've heard the proverb of building your house on the Rock and not the sand, that should be everyone's standard when their setting out and attempting to go down the road you are now traveling, another key piece of info is when looking at potential broodstock DO NOT breed to those freak of nature superstars without evaluation of its littermates, if 3 out of a litter of 10 are real good dogs but the rest of the litter was mediocre at best, that's not a good turnout percent, only time I'd say make an exception is maybe in a situation like yours where your just starting to set the family line and are also using a concentrated gene pool per say, although your dog aren't line bred for generations if you close the doors to outside stock and breed from a certain group even if unrelated with each passing generation you start narrowing the down the gene pool,  if your were to breed those 3 to other dogs of their caliber and from some kin of some sort and your averages aren't increasing then your headed in the wrong direction, your goal shouldn't be to breed for those lone superstars if your intent is to set a family line, you want to eventually start seeing uniform and consistent litters in positive ways, another thing to consider is breeding two dogs that are similar in all their good aspects but if each have similar faults then your just enhancing the likelihood of enhancing the negative traits just as well as th good, or if you see that a dog is nice in almost every way but maybe have a small shortcoming in one department, might be a little difficult in your case with trying to stay within a certain gene pool, but I'd say seek out a mate that is actually overly abundant in that dept. so your probability of enhancing the shortcoming is greater, if you got a glass of room temperature water, depending on if you want to raise or lower to temperature determines if you put hot or cold water into the glass is of lukewarm, it be kinda difficult to make any adjustments if you only use water that was a few degrees different up or down, don't believe the bull crap about not breeding a dog for years until it's proven itself, if it takes that long then your on a long walkabout going in circles, if your doing things right by two years old is plenty long enough, don't be scared to breed those young dogs who are doing it day in and day out, that should be everyone's goal, and always keep in mind, NATURAL ABILITY BEGETS NATURAL ABILITY, no amount of "training" is going to overcome what is natural instinct....

[The Old Man]

Excellent post Goose, some real solid opinions and advice.

[Austesus]

Thank you for the tips goose, at this point it’s all reliant on these 4 pups making the cut. I had a scare yesterday morning, my only male went (I think) hypoglycemic. I screwed up and missed a feeding the night before last and so they went 7 hours without nursing. It was enough to send my male over the edge. He became almost lifeless, wouldn’t nurse at all, started getting cold, etc.. I was trying to research as fast as I could and ended up getting some Karo syrup to try and boost his sugar levels back up, that didn’t make much of a difference. I gave him a sugar water mix recipe, didn’t help either. Then he ended up throwing up the milk I was able to get dribbled down his mouth. I finally found some stuff online about giving him subcutaneous fluids. I ended up giving him a lot of 5% dex solution, 2-3ml’s every 30 minutes for a few hours. And he got a hair of strength back and was able to drink a couple ml’s of milk. I kept that up and kept giving him 1-2ml’s of milk every 30 minutes with the injections. As of 1am he is moving around again. At this point I haven’t given him fluids since 1:30am and he’s almost recovered. Man talk about some stress, I hope to never hand raise pups again lol.

And goose, my wife was joking that I’d go easy on them after hand raising them. I said if anything they’re gonna get a harsher look for being such a pain in my butt, they’ll either fill shoes or fill holes.


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[Reuben]

Austin…if a pup goes cold on you it is hard to bring them back…
Warming them up too quickly will probably be one of the  contributing causes of death…
Doing what you did obviously saved his life…bringing a cold pups body temperature up gradually is critical in saving its life…a good way is to find a comfortable place to sit and grab a blanket…put the pup under your shirt and blanket until his body temperature matches yours…

At 2 weeks are before I would worm them with pyrantel pamoate…

[Austesus]

Reuben, I have had a heating pad for them 24/7, where they can crawl around to eat on and off of it. From everything I found online it was pointing to his blood sugar dropping dangerously low due to going too long without nursing. Basically putting him on the edge of going in to a coma. I can’t wait to get these suckers weaned and outside lol


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[Reuben]

Having a heat pad is really important on account a pup can’t generate its own heat until around two weeks or so…I thought you meant the pups core temperature had gone cold…when that happens the body temperature needs to be brought up gradually or chances are the pup won’t make it…

Low blood sugar can definitely be life threatening especially with pups less than two weeks of age…

[Austesus]

Well the male took a bad turn today. He fell off fast, and has had bloody diarrhea. He had been steadily progressing and I wormed them yesterday afternoon. At midnight he started having diarrhea which continued in to today. At first it was only during his regular bowel movements after eating. Now it’s random. As of 4pm he started falling off like he was previously, I’ve pumped a ton of fluids in him and the diarrhea got worse until it was basically just pink water. Now he won’t nurse and I don’t have the stuff to tube feed. I tried to trickle some milk in his mouth and the last feeding but it wasn’t much use. He’s separated from the others now, I didn’t want him getting bloody poop on them and potentially getting them sick too. I honestly think he was too weak when I gave them the wormer and it might have hit him too hard. Really sucks but I don’t think he will make it through the night.


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[WayOutWest]

Sorry to hear it, it is hard to get them bottle feeders up to solid food.

[Austesus]

My wife took over his care for the night, so far I’ve done 100% of taking care of them myself and just don’t have the time for the regular care on top of caring for him. He has made it through the night. He threw up a piece of newspaper where I had it ripped up in pieces for bedding for them. I’m hoping maybe that was the cause of all of it because the other puppies have not shown signs of getting sick as of yet. He did finally start getting some actual yellow poop in his diarrhea instead of straight blood, but a few minutes ago he pooped out some gooey liquid poop that had big spots of bright red blood in it. I’m hoping he doesn’t have any bad internal bleeding or damage. Just trying to keep him pumped full of fluids, warm, and getting him to nurse a few ml’s of milk every 2 hours to try and hopefully just keep him alive to overcome whatever the cause is. I even thought about taking him to a vet last night but I know the bill will be $1,500 plus and with him being so young he probably wouldn’t make it anyways if he’s that bad. Our regular vets around here stopped doing emergency work once Covid started and all vets including the emergency vets stay busy 24/7 now with the emergency vets having a 4-6 hour wait time just to be seen. Gonna just try to sustain him long enough to beat he issue and hope that it’s something he can overcome.


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