Old type Bull Terrier

[Form 4 Function]

I was gifted this 4 year old female named Pira. She spent 3 days in a crate getting here and steps out ready for action.      She comes out of Miami Florida but she was born in the country of France.  She comes from Vanelle Kennels in France originally and is tight line bred on the Thunder Rock blood plus comes out of the best dogs of that line.  So I'm told.   I know nothing of the line.  She makes the second bully I've owned and 3rd I've ever been around.    I have developed a fondness for the bullies, especially adding the bully blood into my  big wolfhound and dane based rcds.      Anyway, thought I'd share some pictures of her.  Maybe a couple people on here know quite a bit more about the old school type bull terriers and enjoy seeing her.     I don't have a plate small enough for her to catch in so doubtful any pictures of her on pigs for a bit.   Pretty sure she isn't stock broke and the sight of a cat really rocks her up on her toes lol.   Pretty interesting and intense dog.  Dog friendly and not aggressive at all with people but she is packed full of prey drive.  No real handle on her however i guess if i need to i could cut ear off and pick her up like a football and run to another catch lol.   These dogs are so tiny compared to what i accustomed to.    Pretty sure she will only be used on meat/dog food hunts.   No handle as of yet so no go on hunts I'm tying for selling purposes.   

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[jsh]

Dean I have two or three smaller plates I no longer use.  One of them josh made for me. You are more than welcome to use them until yours comes in if you’d like. I live between weatherford and granbury and work out in Ranger during the week.

Jeff

[Form 4 Function]

Dean I have two or three smaller plates I no longer use.  One of them josh made for me. You are more than welcome to use them until yours comes in if you’d like. I live between weatherford and granbury and work out in Ranger during the week.

Jeff

   Thank you Jeff.    I'll actually be in Weatherford tomorrow around 6:30 pm but i assume you will be in Ranger then?      If so I'll come to Ranger one day this week and  meet you  and  we can see which is the better fit for her if you'll take them to Ranger with you.      940-634-0811 is my number. 

[Judge peel]

Neat little dog.


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[t-dog]

She definitely had a better head. She doesn’t have so much of that Roman muzzle like most of them do. You can see the intensity in her too


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[Rough curs]

Fine dog you have there. I grew up with this breed and what the show people have done is horrible. She looks like a gull terrier....true bull and terrier. Interested to see what you do with her.

[Form 4 Function]

Fine dog you have there. I grew up with this breed and what the show people have done is horrible. She looks like a gull terrier....true bull and terrier. Interested to see what you do with her.

   Thank you.  What i can do with such a little dog is very limited on their own.  I plan on using her as mu h as i can though for a there are several well respected bully men around the world watching to see.  Probably none more so than Florent Vanelle himself  and Jacob Miranda

[WayOutWest]

She definitely has a better build than what the average american bred one has. The only fault I see is lack of angulation in the rear end with the stifle being a little low. If you are breeding her into your dogs I would guess that will not be an issue because most every running dog will have better back ends.

[Form 4 Function]

She definitely has a better build than what the average american bred one has. The only fault I see is lack of angulation in the rear end with the stifle being a little low. If you are breeding her into your dogs I would guess that will not be an issue because most every running dog will have better back ends.

     I favor a different structure to specifically the chest and rear than anyone on here that has described what they like and find appealing.      Everyone seems to like the deep chests, sprung ribs, hard angles on the rear end etc.       I'm pretty much the opposite.   

[t-dog]

Dean why is it you prefer a shallow chest and less angulation?


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[Sambo5500]

Cool deal Dean! Glad you finally got her in. Been waiting for you to get her. Keep me posted buddy. Talk to ya soon.

[Form 4 Function]

Dean why is it you prefer a shallow chest and less angulation?


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I'll explain using these distinct breeds of sighthounds

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[WayOutWest]

The saluki I would bet is a show animal and is shallow in the chest without good rear angulation. The greyhound and wolfhound both have the chest depth to their elbows and good rear angulation. After 40 plus years being involved with performance APBT'S those are factors which enhance a dogs endurance. It isn't something I just "like."

[t-dog]

I agree that isn’t a good representative of the Saluki. This is a little more accurate depiction. I agree wholeheartedly with WOW. I’ve told this example before, but I had two catch dog females at the same time. One was a really doggy gyp. Not feminine but more masculine in head shape and size as well as muscular. Her angulation in the back end wasn’t as good as the other female either. The second female was my favorite of the two. At least twice as fast, twice as strong, and the stamina between the two wasn’t even comparable nor was the athletic ability. Most people liked the doggy gyp and would argue that there was no way that she more stream line better angulated female was the superior dog. So one day we hooked the two gyps up to a sled and properly fit pulling harnesses. What the doggy gyp had to lean into to pull, the the better angulated deeper chested female ran with and never took a deep breath afterwards. I also pulled my old retired catch dog against some Greater Swiss mountain dogs. They had an easy 30 pounds and years of youth on him. It was the second time he ever even looked through a pulling harness. They eventually became spectators because he was going down the track with weight they couldn’t budge. Again, if they had been made like he was, he wouldn’t have been able to compete at his age and experience as they were regular pull dogs. I have no doubt he would’ve outran them in both short and long distance. Like WOW said, chest depth and well sprung along with proper angulation front to back aren’t preferences but proven necessities. Your big dogs don’t hold for longer periods because they are big, they hold because they are big and well built. When you loose your angulation and wind capacity, they will loose the ability to hold for longer periods and multiple hogs. Just my opinion of course but it’s been learned over my almost 49 years of life dealing with horses, dogs, and believe it or not, chickens.


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[Form 4 Function]

Dean why is it you prefer a shallow chest and less angulation?


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    Notice the whippet has the deep chest and heavy "angulation " to its rear.   People on here largly talk very highly of these traits but,  lets examine the function and forms of these 3 sighthound breeds  and compare them to one another.        Function is what drives form.   What is the whippets function?     The whippet is bree to catch rabbits.  Rabbits, not hares.     Rabbits take a tremendous amount of speed and quickness which are two different things.  We can think of quickness as explosiveness and agility.   The whippet catches the rabbit how?  By speed and quickness.   Very little attention is given to endurance.  Not much to killing a rabbit once its caught.   So work is primarily over once the quick catch is made.   The whippet is having to run for miles or fight its prey once it catchs it or hold and controle it for a prolonged period of time.    Ok, notice the form of the whippet.    That deep chest and step angle over the croup and rear portionnof the dog.        As a side not lets visit size briefly too.   The whippet must by extremely nibble and agile.   This means its feet have to be on the ground more so than a dog bred for hare.  A dog can't change directions when its feet aren't on the ground.    A rabbit requires a dog with a lot of rpms to really excell at catching them.  This is why the whippet is small.  More rpms to cover the same amount of ground as a deerhound can.    This results in a form that is best suited for the function of catching rabbit.  
      Now lets move to the Saluki.    The Saluki is bred to run down gazelle and hare.  It does this through speed and stamina.  Tons of attention is focused on the stamina of of this breed of sighthound.  Stamina has a 2 part play here with this dog along with the next dog we will be discussing.       This race is a race of stamina or endurance, not just speed and agility as in the case of the whippet and rabbit.  After this really long high speed race results in a catch, the Saluki has to have the endurance to either hold or kill the gazelle.  So again their is another difference here as far as function goes than with the whippet and rabbit.    
     Lets examine the form that exells at this funtion or speed and endurance  above and beyond anynother dog on the planet.    It doesn't have the deep chest the way a whippet does.    If a deep chest  translated to more endurance and energy then surely the Saluki would have a chest 17 times more pronounced than the whippet.        Moving to the rear portion of the Saluki.    Notice the Saluki is much flatter over its croup than a whippet or greyhound if you can imagine just a bigger size whippet.   Since the Saluki is still among the fastest dogs in the world, is the steep angulation over the croup really whats required to be extremely fast?       Another case and point, notice the croup of a Thoroughbred.     The Thoroughbred  renowned for its great speed and stamina  doesnt really have a round or steep angulation to the croup.  However  we do find this more to be a feature in the quarter horse which runs a quarter of the distance a Thoroughbred does.  
      Transitioning now to the final dog pictured, the wolfhound.    The apex dog of all breeds.   Its function was to run down and fight/kill wolves.    This took speed and much endurance but not only speed and endurance but also power.   Where do wolves live? In the flat lands?   No!    Do wolves have great endurance? Yes they do.  Are they fast, yes they are.   They are also big, powerful, and fight back unlike thenother two prey species we discussed the previous other two breeds of dogs were bred for.        So now we know the function of the wolfhound and what it has to do, lets once again examine the form/structure of the wolfhound which is the worlds most apex dog.       The wolfhound is fast and has to have a lot of stamina which again plays a dual role in this dogs function.     It has to have the endurance and speed to cstch a wolf but also it has to have the energy and power to kill the wolf once it catchs it.     Notice the chest and croup are more similar to thatnof the Saluki than that of the whippet or greyhound.       Remove that hair and you'll find a more shallower chest underneath than what it appears to be.         Also notice the mass of the wolfhound.  Its not frail and danty like the other two breeds mentioned that caught prey that didn't fight back.   So the biggest of the dog breeds, the apex of the dog breeds hunting by far the rougher and more unforgiving terrain and still one of the faster dog breeds with great endurance.         Is the pattern starting to emerge now and make sense?
      I'm not chasing rabbits.   My dogs are running down 280 to 300 pound boar that once caught, ferociously fight back with dagger like weapons.   Their strength and power is great, the prey carries its own weapons and its own armor in a very powerful and dense body.       My dogs hold for an extended period of time often times caught 1000 or more yards away with me on foot.    
     That is why i prefer the structure that i do.    I'm not heat stroking dogs, never have i heat stroked 1 nor are they getting cut up, nor have i ever lost one to a boar either in the field or after.       That is the power of Form for Function and also The Lords blessing.        
    Realizing the entire function is paramount.   Knowing the prey is extremely important  and even more so when the prey is deadly or dangerous and even morso is it important to know the prey when the deadly dangerous prey is found in every environment you can imagin and is one of the most adaptible animal's their are second to the coyote and cock roach lol.          When form for function is fully obtained, it is my opinion that ones skill level and understanding and their own physical fitness and endurance is a critical factor in the outcome and success.    If your getting dogs heat stroked, frequently injured, or death is something you think is just part of the hunt, then either form for function has not been achieved or you are the weak link either skill wise or physically.   Some will say well my country is different than your country.  For one I've seen your pictures and no it is not and two, if it truely is as bad as you make it out to be, then theirnis a form for that function.  That is just as successful.   You just have to ask GOD for help to understand and for the ability to achieve and the skill to execute.    

[Form 4 Function]

The saluki I would bet is a show animal and is shallow in the chest without good rear angulation. The greyhound and wolfhound both have the chest depth to their elbows and good rear angulation. After 40 plus years being involved with performance APBT'S those are factors which enhance a dogs endurance. It isn't something I just "like."

   Sir, i did not get the picture of the Saluki off a Google search.  I got the picture from a guy that makes a living hunting them.            However the 2 dogs you are crediting are show dogs lol.   Sir, i know you try hard but i really don't think you understand performance beyond that of a show ring or computer screen

[WayOutWest]

And you Dean are one of the most arrogant hole in the butts I have ever come across.

[t-dog]

Dean I’m pretty laid back and I think everyone should have their own opinion. I also think they should breed and hunt what is in their opinion right, acceptable, or excels. But to tell WOW  he has no idea what is needed in form for function, well that’s insane. I don’t just know this man but he may as well be family. We have sat talked and compared notes and dogs, functionalities of this one or that one of different breeds as well as the breeds themselves. He’s hunted with me for years and I can say is very open minded to form and function. So much so that when we met he was an avid game dog man and had an opinion about the type of dog I used. He came to my home and stayed and hunted with my dogs. He was able to see why I used and raised the dogs I did. He then got one and hunted him for years. He is SUPER highly respected amongst VERY knowledgeable pit bull people, people that will forever leave their mark on the pit bull world. This doesn’t come from his mouth, it comes from the mouths of the individuals that I met through him in person that the average Joe doesn’t get to know on the same level. There are men that own dogs and there are dog men, he 100% is a dog man. He has helped me to better my own dogs with his keen eye. I’ve been raising my own family of dogs for over 25 years. I’ve been the financier of my set of dogs for 30 years and my dad and men that were old enough to be his father had dogs and were super successful in just about any type of dog hunting and working dog aspect. They didn’t succeed because they were wrong about the form needed for their function. You’re as good as the people you surround yourself with. I’ve been fortunate to be surrounded by great mentors and gift of the good Lord to see what many overlook. I like what you have going and think you’ve done well, but on the same note, your big red dog that is so nice does not fit the mold of what you describe in form but in my opinion more along the lines of what we are describing. Because I don’t see what you see in the description of form for function when I look at your red dog, I never take peoples word for what they are seeing, be it color to build to style. I don’t think you a dumb fella, but I do think you cause yourself to look bad and come off abrasive when you in a sense, insult folks, or argue for the sake of argument. I say argue for the sake of argument because I don’t see the form you describe in your obviously nice red dog but more what WOW and I agree upon as the form we think is necessary to excel. Again everyone is entitled to their own opinion but the “my way is absolute” and if you don’t agree you’re an idiot mentality gets me and most people stirred up. You seem to like talking dogs and showing them off. That’s awesome, you should be proud and you should be a student of your passion. I can tell you though, you don’t know in your short hog dog career, nearly as much as you think you do. Time will teach you though. One lesson to getting along on here is learning how talk to folks, especially well respected very senior people. I wish you and your dogs the best.


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[Form 4 Function]

T dog i could care less for your opinions on people or dogs.  Who you like doesn't amount to a hill of beans as to whether they know what they talking about.   Way out west had already shown himself to be a fake and a fraud posing as a intelligent human on a previous thread.  Now he has doubled down.    The imposter makes himself out to be an expert on pig dogs but he isnt a pig dogger.      He goes once a year with someone.  If that's what it takes to qualify to be an expert well every new person I've taken has the same credentials as him then.         40 yrs experience in one thing doesn't make you an expert or experienced in other things like this fraud is trying to make himself out to be.    40.years experience with pits doing what? Fighting them?   How the heck does fighting make you a good hunter?  Or was it weight pulling dogs  or protection dogs? You people love to romanticize one thing into another.     Only a fool thinks their knowledge of a pit translates to the knowledge of a Saluki  or anynother breed for that matter
   Listening to him he talks like a show judge and not a hunter. I bet there is a reason for this  lol.       As for you t dog i cant help that you feel related to fake people.        Stupid attracts stupid.      I know you think your wise with all the lengthy posts you make but i have once in 18 months read more than a few lines of your posts before rolling my eys and skipoing on to something else.   I read your junk for entertainment only.  .  Your one of the people i pass up on here and have no interest in  reading because your blissfully unaware or your ignorance  and act and talk like you are an expert on here.   So dumb!     You  to frauds have never created anything.     Your dogs are no different than the next person's bay dogs or pits.  Yet yall think yall are special and you think your a good breeder.   Your the same.  You've done nothing different than anyone else.   Yet you go on and on about yourself.  Get a grip.      You claim I'm arrogant but i explained fully with illustrations why i prefer what i do.  You asked me!   I seen a confirmation thread on here and i purposely didn't put a thing on there after reading some of that show dog sounding crap.  So you come to me and ask me.   Your fake relative then tried to belittle me.  So i hit him back.  Awww, im such a bad man for hurting the feelers of your guest that thinks he is an expert and a pig dogger because you take him hunting once a year lol.     Then i answered your question to which you become offended.   Thats your problem t dog.   If you cant handle the answere then dont ask the question.             I already knew you'd get butt hurt if i contradicted what you like so i didn't comment on your thread about confirmation.    Yet here you go asking why i like the exact opposite as you and my undeniable readins and illustrations rubbed up against your pride and arragance and you come crashing down.   Now everyone things you two are idiots because you can't refute what i said and yall are on the record for liking and talking up what makes a whippet so good lol. Freaking idiots.  I get kick out of you clowns. Yall are so funny and so easy.    Bunch of sanctimonious fools that claim relationship with  one another.  Haha how perfect

[WayOutWest]

Man, you sure show your true colors on what you think of anyone that doesn't hunt like you. Arrogant pos!