Hardest trait to nail down consistently?

[t-dog]

So I was talking back and forth with a brilliant dog man this morning. And I asked him “ self, what is the hardest characteristic to nail down consistently?” Lol, just kidding about the self part. Anyway, he and I were talking about the differences in littermates that are different in color because they have thrown back to something further back. The particular dog we started the conversation about was a little rougher than he preferred and would be one of the dogs few faults when grading him. To me, “rough” is the hardest trait to nail down consistently. Like I told him, it’s not like cattle. With cattle you usually know what you are going to work before you go so you know what to haul to work them. You might take some loose windmilling dogs for this set of cattle that bunch easy and drive easy. The next set you go work might be high headed, brush hunting hookers. You might need something on them that will convince them that they should bunch and once they have will chew on that nose if it’s stuck out away from the herd too far. We don’t have that luxury hog hunting. So we breed for the laws of average for hogs we find most. One person may have the kind of hogs that bay and bunch well and loose dogs are all they need. The next person may have the kinda hogs that are gonna run as hard and as long as they are allowed to. When you catch up to them you had better be able to convince them that staying put is their only option. Then there are the hard headed ones that think they are going to break and leave every time they catch their wind. You either gotta have dogs that are gonna stay with it and keep trying to convince it to stand or dogs that will straight out catch it. Terrain can have an effect and the number of dogs can too. There’s this real big and super ugly guy I’m friends with who’s old catahoula dog would bay all day, but the third time ANY hog broke the third time, he was catching it. He got cut a few times but he’s going to die of old age. This is the way I wish all my dogs thought and performed. Sometimes you get in the situation though where you have those dogs with lots of stopping power and they get wrecked because they didn’t need to work so tight or put as much pressure. So smart rough is another variable. The right rough is a super fine line and hard to get consistently. That’s just my opinions though.

What do y’all think are the hardest traits to nail down consistently?


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[HIGHWATER KENNELS]

You said a mouth full there man.   Tell me when u know how to get those smart ruff dogs outta every cross.   Cause I’m gonna put in a order for all u got.  Every yr u got em.   Lol.  What’s bad is    Too me it’s not even something the daddy and momma get give u in every litter or every pup.   It’s dog independent from what I see don’t know how to come out with that recipe every time.   


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[t-dog]

Highwater I have’em and as George Straight says, I have some ocean front property in Arizona too!


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[Cajun]

I think all traits are hard to hold on to on a consistent basis. Nose , speed, grit, silent trailing, open trailing, treeing.  I have seen so many times that certain traits seem to skip a generation and then pop back up the following generation. I think there are just dogs (male and females) out there that are producers and then there are others that no matter how good they are, just cannot produce thereself. I would sure like some answers and this should be a great topic.

[The Old Man]

Here it has always been the right amount of bite at the right times, seems like there is often too much at the wrong time or not enough at the right time, be it the Curs or the Plotts.

[Reuben]

I agree…the hardest thing to breed right is the right amount of grit…to many different scenarios as to what is needed for that moment in time…

I like plenty of bite…no nipping just grab and hold…let go to prevent or minimize injury or even when tired but with the mindset to not let the hog run if at all possible…

The next thing that is hard to breed is the mindset to want to stop a runner at any cost except to prevent injury…many dogs will push a hog and think they are doing their job…

Some of the dogs that have that stopping mentality lack in hunt and bottom…

The right mentality to want to stop a hog is a close second for me…

[Rough curs]

Id say it depends on the bred and the what you are getting. I have 2 pure cats 1 is flat out straight catch the other is a tight bay dog. My others are cross bred. Momma is half walker quarter mnt cur quarter bulldog she thinks shes all bulldog. Daddy was cat bulldog cross....off leash cd. And every dog is related somehow,even the baying cat. All the pups are straight catch with the ability to wind rig and trail wich gives them the ability to be wrecked quite a bit. They either catch1 by themselves or end up piling on 1.  With what i started with i got what i wanted. Like i said I think it really depends on dogs.

[Shotgun66]

Hunt IQ/Intelligence has been the toughest trait to reproduce in my experience. You can breed bay, mouth, hunt, confirmation, durability, desire etc. The dogs that are able to learn from their experiences and apply that knowledge to future hunts are rare. The dogs I’m referring to learn to think like a hog and understand their handler’s expectations of them.
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Ex. Same dogs in summer vs fall. Cut em from the same spot. The dogs I’m referring to will go straight to water when it’s hot. In the fall they will bypass water and go straight to a food source like acorns or a feeder. I don’t think these types of dogs are hostage to their nose. They use experiential knowledge to find & bay em.
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I’m my humble experience, your best to start with one that has a lot of hunt/desire (aka motor) and put the time in with them to apply some brakes/handle. Everything else is just style points & preference.


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[NLAhunter]

I am like Cajun I feel like it's hard to keep a lot of things on a consistent basis but I agree roughness is a pretty hard one to get right it depends on the hogs and terrain you hunting I don't want a really rough dog and I don't want one that will walk along behind a walking hog and not make him stop either we like to work hogs and Barr a bunch every year and can't turn em back loose if they all chewed up when I get there so I don't deal with that at my house far as stopping and keeping hogs bayed till I can get there I have had luck in old stock bred cur dogs that go back to dogs that they used to work cows and hogs in woods in open range they got that stock since to get bayed and know when to put pressure and when to get back a let settle I have had luck in crossing plotts on that type of dog and is working out pretty well I like lots of hunt and drive and the want to stop one and keep him bayed till I get there where it's 5 min or 3 hours they know I am coming and keep him there

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[Goose87]

 Getting dogs that can replicate themselves and all that you like about them into their offspring and onto the generations to follow, and second would be as already been said, having dogs that have the finesse to work a settled hog but enough salt and attitude to make a rank runner decide it's a better idea to sit still and be barked at instead of trying to make a break....

[make-em-squeel]

I dont like dogs to gritty either, the most consistent thing I want breed for is casting out hunting big loops, bottom, and enough brains to not get cut up regularly. Other than my 1 friend who breeds 1/2 english pointers 1/2 catahoulas the only way ive seen this work consistently is line breeding tight and when out crossing it has to be to another line bred dog. Breeding good dog to good dog doesnt seem to do this consistently enough from what ive seen. Also specifically referring to Catahoula and BMC breeds.

I have little experience with hounds personally but rarely seen a good half hound have cur make it..

[Shotgun66]

I am like Cajun I feel like it's hard to keep a lot of things on a consistent basis but I agree roughness is a pretty hard one to get right it depends on the hogs and terrain you hunting I don't want a really rough dog and I don't want one that will walk along behind a walking hog and not make him stop either we like to work hogs and Barr a bunch every year and can't turn em back loose if they all chewed up when I get there so I don't deal with that at my house far as stopping and keeping hogs bayed till I can get there I have had luck in old stock bred cur dogs that go back to dogs that they used to work cows and hogs in woods in open range they got that stock since to get bayed and know when to put pressure and when to get back a let settle I have had luck in crossing plotts on that type of dog and is working out pretty well I like lots of hunt and drive and the want to stop one and keep him bayed till I get there where it's 5 min or 3 hours they know I am coming and keep him there

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Good point about stayin bayed NLA. Dogs that will stay bayed until you get there seem to be hard to come by. I’m not talking about dogs that get beat on a break. A lot of dogs simply lose interest or their nerve and quit a bayed hog.


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[Reuben]

I dont like dogs to gritty either, the most consistent thing I want breed for is casting out hunting big loops, bottom, and enough brains to not get cut up regularly. Other than my 1 friend who breeds 1/2 english pointers 1/2 catahoulas the only way ive seen this work consistently is line breeding tight and when out crossing it has to be to another line bred dog. Breeding good dog to good dog doesnt seem to do this consistently enough from what ive seen. Also specifically referring to Catahoula and BMC breeds.

I have little experience with hounds personally but rarely seen a good half hound have cur make it..

I agree…breeding good dog to good dog will not get consistency…there will be good dogs from a litter but won’t be consistent…

Line breeding and inbreeding will get consistency if we breed for it…

[NLAhunter]

It sure is easier to get what you looking for if you find a family of dogs that are what you want and they produce a high % of like dogs to stay in good dogs I sure ain't got the dogs no better than nobody else and ain't got near as good as what I am looking for but I had decent luck out of the crosses that I been fooling with the half and half cross that good friend of mine made was old catahoula male he had they have been bred here long time and pretty good family of dogs over a plott gyp she raised 10 puppies all of em that had a chance to make something that we kept up with made hog dogs I raised 3 out of that litter the blue gyp I had from that litter was nicest dog I probably ever had on my place and got killed at the house at just over 2 just natural born hog dog from young age the other gyp I raised was just about same way she is the gyp these dogs I am hunting now are out of I took her to a male cur dog from line bred family that has lots of drive hustle and lots of hunt she had 6 puppies I raised all 6 and started em and all of em started good and early I gave a gyp and black male to my little buddy cause I couldn't hunt em all enough gyp I gave him was making really nice dog she jumped out of buggy hit wrong broke her neck that was one morning during the summer they caught 3 hogs behind her that morning she was about 14 months old his male made nice dog got his tendon cut this summer he is 3 leg now and I am hunting the other 4 still they will be 3 this coming spring  my old blue male Ennis is litter mate to those 2 gyps he is pretty nice dog can be little rough for me sometimes he will about bay anything if it's settled and not fighting much but if it trys him to many times he fixing to catch it his sister that I had the litter out of was not rough at all but would put the ivory to ones but trying to run but get right back and bay all 6 puppies I had are not rough at all but will try stop one but I got videos of 2 are 3 of them baying 5 lbs pigs like they weigh 400 it's funny to see 3 males that weight 65-70 lbs circling and baying a 10 lbs pig

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[t-dog]

NLA it’s not the size of hog in the fight, it’s the size of the fight in the hog lol.

Seriously though, you said something that I was told many moons ago and that has always stuck with me. One of my mentors told me if I ever quit looking for better I’d never have the best. That doesn’t mean your dogs aren’t good, it just means you recognize that there is always room for improvement. Every dog I raise that I think is pretty nice, I always ask myself what would make that dog better. That plays a huge role in the way I breed that dog when the time comes.


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[TexasHogDogs]

Family and hard line breeding is great till the breeder of dogs goes over board with it .  Many great dog men are guilty of it and so am I.  The key to family and hard line breeding is to know when enuff is enuff.  One of the hardest parts of dog breeding is finding two lines of dogs that click .  By that I mean where you get almost the perfect dog are dogs you been looking for .  When you find this you breed this till the balls fall of .  Like Tdog said when you think you have the best and nothing can be improved is when you are done.  There is always room to improve.  Another key to dog breeding is finding a dog that can at least reproduce a dog are dogs as great as him are greater . That is like finding a needle in a haystack.  What is even harder than that and more precious than that is finding a great producing female .  She is worth her weight in gold ten times fold .  As we looked back on the many years in the bulldog breeding we found that loose line breeding ended up producing the best dogs we ever owned. This type of breeding gives your blood in the dogs room to breath and work for you .  When you are heavy family breeding you may be breeding the very best dog of your blood line but when you stack and stack even the best dogs if there is a bad gene in that bloodline some were before your time it begins to close and closer to the front until Boom !  Then you have to worry that all of the dogs you bred before this are carrying that same gene.  LOL I could go on and on and on but you get the point.  Its there and you didn't even know it for 20 years and all the sudden your gold turns to chit .  So if I had to do it all over again I would do it just like I started out doing it and had some of the best dogs of my time breeding best to best with loose line breeding and loose back crosses.  The human element is the weakest link when it comes to breeding dogs.

[t-dog]

The human element is absolutely the weakest link. It’s usually because of kennel blindness or pride. I have a young gyp here now that is heavy back to my old Clyde dog. I would love it if she was what she’s bred to be but as luck would have it, I think she’s going to have to make a dog for someone else. Her litter mates are making nice dogs from what I’m told. The way everyone is describing them they are true to the family in characteristics, but she is lacking. She loves a hog but she doesn’t have those hot feet I like. I do believe with patience she will make it but it isn’t as natural as it is to the others in her litter. I have other young dogs that the have that go I want and like a hog every bit as much as she does. The spot she is occupying would be be served and spent on one of them. Some would cull her absolute but I’m gonna give her a chance to make. There’s a young day working cowboy that wants to take her and try her so we’ll see if she has it in her for that. I told him exactly what she knew and exactly why I wasn’t keeping her. I could keep her and breed her like I’ve seen a lot of people do because of what she is but it would likely set me back instead of helping. Doing that would be kennel blindness. Not making an outcross when it’s needed would be pride getting in the way.


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[HIGHWATER KENNELS]

Man.  U said the ‘P’ word.   Lol.   Pride will and has been the downfall of more than just dogs.   A buddy of mine is good as good.  But he’s hanging on to a memory of what use to be when it comes to his hog dogs.   Just because they are out of his “old” stuff.  Don’t make em the ole stuff.  I have never had a problem when I went hunted with a feller that had  a jam up hog dog. Tellin him that he had a jam up hog dog.  Don’t have to be mine to be good.  Don’t have to me off my dogs to be good.  In fact  a feller would be doin a injustice to himself and his dogs not to capitalize on mixing the right blood don’t matter if it’s off your yard or not. 


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[TexasHogDogs]

I sit here now and droll at the great breedings I could have made when I had the bulldogs.  By that I mean crossing into some of the best of their time of different lines.  But instead I was in love trying to make tighter breedings to save the bloodline or bloodline's that i had only crossing when absolutely needed.   They were already tight enuff and some more than they should have been.  Hense another part of the human element .  It was what I wanted and not what the dogs needed are were begging for to make great great performance dogs.  In all retrospect all that heavy line and inbreeding was just purley unnecessary it was tight enuff and would have produced  super performance dogs almost surely had I crossed them with the great performance dogs I had at hand .   I can  say with all confidence I was not the only one making this mistake .  I know many many that went down the same well as I did.  This is not to say I did not or they did not produce great performance dogs it is only saying had I listen to what the dogs were telling me and not what I thought needed to be done.  Its no telling what would have been history now .   Family breeding is a great thing but as I have said do not go down the dry well that so many have already been down.  If you have great confidence in your heavy linebred dogs never ever think twice to breeding to a great great dog of another bloodline in other words a straight cross.  This is how great family are started and made if the breeding clicks.  If it dont work no big deal chit can it and move on .  It takes a lifetime and hands on experience no hear say BS to realize all of this are at least it did me !

[Reuben]

Finding a really good line of hogdogs is not easy…

In breeding better dogs one must breed the best available…

Selecting the puppies for natural abilities is key…

I see intelligence when I’m looking at a pup that has natural finding and winding skills among other natural skills…
Folks talk about intelligence…I tend to only speak of natural ability…natural ability is natural intelligence…

When we scatter pieces of liver or fried chicken in the yard that the pups have developed a taste for…and some has been scattered and a pup puts his nose up to the wind and smells those meaty treats in the wind currents…we open the gate and that pup already has it in his mind to go find…we watch the pup work making loops and scanning the ground quickly and finding and eating twice as many treats as it’s siblings…

When this pup grows up he will be the one that strikes first because he will know how to work the wind currents…drift a track and find the meat…the brain is connected to the nose…this pups brain and nose is connected to this pup differently than it’s siblings…his get up and go is connected to the brain differently as well…it is called natural ability…it can be summed up as natural intelligence…

You will see that some dogs don’t react to hog scent in the wind because it isn’t very strong…his brain and nose lack in that connection…the one with the natural inclination does not need much hog scent in the wind currents to react to it…

If we knew all there is to know about what genetic make up it takes to have the above natural abilities we would say it equals to a high level of intelligence…

This isn’t in the books…just personal common sense theories at work…

When we take a 4 month old pup to the woods and it rolls out like it was born to do it…again it is the brain driving…telling that pup to go based on the information that pup is receiving…