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Author Topic: Winding…  (Read 568 times)
Reuben
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« on: April 12, 2022, 07:54:27 am »

My thoughts on winding ability…if a pup has a good nose it can be taught to a certain degree to wind but it needs to already have an inclination to do so…

But it is much better when the pup does it on its own and the scent in the wind excites that pup enough to get it to open or at a minimum to whine…

I also believe when you have two dogs of good hunting abilities and one is not inclined to wind but the other dog is…I will put my money on the natural winding dog…

The reason is simple…the winding dog that can be casted will also be hunting the wind currents whether it is scent off a hog wallow or scent off a trail or simply wind hogs…the trigger flips and if it’s a pig will go straight to it…if it’s scent he winded off the wallow, trail of feeding area…well that’s a starting point that leads to a pig…

The dog that hunts well but is not a winding type dog will need a stronger hog scent in the wind to flip his switch…and as a result has to work harder to find a pig…

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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
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Austesus
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« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2022, 08:44:13 am »

I really enjoy a good wind dog. They seem to make things look easier and I agree that they will find more hogs if they will wind a hog or wind the sign. Slightly off topic but I think it kind of ties in to the topic if we are talking pups and young dogs, I also agree with some of your other posts in regards to selecting natural ability with pups.

After my Ranger dog was killed a few weeks ago I went back and read some of my notes in my journal from when he was a pup. I kept a journal on the progress of him, and two other littermates that I kept and raised. I often took them to the creek by the house and would turn them loose and just sit and observe them. Even from a 10-12 week old pup, I had notes about Ranger trying to wind, and when I would play around and put out chicken for them to find (until they were 9-10 months old they were on 100% raw diet and ate chicken as part of their meal everyday), he was the first pup to hit on it by winding. Interestingly, I often noted that while he was the first to hit on it, he was not the first to actually find it. After the 3 pups would eat the chicken, he was the last pup that was still there searching the area for more, even though the other two pups had already left and went off somewhere else. At 12 weeks old both him and his brother Red were independent and would wander off by themselves.

Now this is very interesting to me because I had forgotten about some of these notes, but after ranger was killed and I went back and read them I realized that a lot of those mannerisms carried over as they got older. Ranger and Red were both independent and once they hit a mile they would normally separate if they had gone out together, and they would each go out for their own pig. Ranger was a good wind dog and ran head up winding the track. This was something that he displayed as a trait when he was a puppy. He also had a lot of bottom and after he was about 9-10 months old I can’t think of any time that he didn’t put a hog at the end of a run except for one boar that we lost after a few broken bays, but this was the hunt where ranger was cut down already by a hog that we killed right before starting the second boar, and after it broke a few times I got ranger out and realized he had been partially castrated and was needing some vet attention in a few places. If he went out on something it was just a matter of time before he bayed it, which seems to also have been displayed as pup by him staying and searching for the chicken even after the other pups had gone on to something else. I think he had a natural inclination and drive to search hard and find what he was looking for.

Obviously this is a case study of only a few pups that I have watched, but I am keeping these same journal notes on pups I am raising now, because I think that these characteristics that we see in puppies can and do affect how they turn out as older dogs.

As a side note for anyone that is raising their first couple puppies, I hated ranger as a puppy. I thought he was weird and quirky, was ugly, and didn’t think he would make a dog. He proved me wrong and ended up being the best dog I’ve ran behind for his age, and was on his way to make a very good dog. So I also learned to give pups time and opportunity before judging them too harshly or giving favoritism. The female pup that I favored, actually ended up being the worst one out of the 3.

Good post Reuben, I reading everyone’s thoughts on these discussions.


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t-dog
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« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2022, 09:12:25 am »

This is one of those fascinating things about dogs to me. The dogs I use have a real strong winding instinct. If I want to cast a certain area first, I have to make sure that I cast it according to the wind because they are very instinctive about hunting into or across the wind. Obviously there are times when this isn’t possible but I have seen them hit that area and work around to manipulate the wind on their own. I love to see a dog working and all of a sudden get jerked around sideways by scent that they just caught out of the air. Obviously once they smell it, if the scent leads into the wind, it is easier to line out. I have seen dogs wind though and travel with the wind, and be correct in doing it. To me that is as puzzling as it is fascinating because in my simple mind it shouldn’t be as easy as they made it look. I’m not talking about they crossed a track and worked it with the wind but truly winded, going to it with their front feet barely touching the ground and their nose almost pointed up, I freaking love watching that. We all know that dogs are as diverse as people in the way they choose to do things. Some hunt head up 90% of the time, some work high to low and back to high, and some work low 90% of the time. I like the higher headed dogs for the simple reason that I don’t have to have a super cold nosed dogs. I do believe my dogs have better than average noses because when I do need it, they are able to get it done. I know they’ve taken some tracks that were made on camera 12 hours prior in less than ideal conditions and bayed the hog in bed in very short order a mile away. Let me retract slightly, that wasn’t “my” dog but a littermate to Raylynn. I have seen many of my dogs go 3/4 - 1 mile in a line so straight that you would think they knew where the hogs were ahead of time. Most of those times were off the wind. It was neat to see because the route we would have to take to get to them would often times carry us over sign where the hogs had been but that the dogs never made over far enough to get into. Winding from that far out and taking it at a clip as fast as they did makes me believe they have good noses and know what to do with minimal scent. The further out you get the broader the scent cone gets. Obviously the broader it is the less scent there is. I’ve seen it done where it was a sounder and I’ve seen it done on solo hogs. I’ve always felt like the dogs that worked high and low or more up than down had an advantage over the predominantly low headed dogs. Not necessarily because of how cold a nose one or the other has, but because they were putting themselves in a position for more scenting options. The dog that lives low so to speak limits themselves to track situations more times than not, in my opinion. I also believe timing plays a role in winding. Depending on conditions, one dog might come through 5 minutes too soon and not be able to smell what the next dog winds. Sometimes it could be nose power or an experience thing, but I’ve seen dogs I would place equal ability on do it and I just believe circumstances made it possible for one and not the other to make it happen. Several times since starting these collie dogs, I have had them leashed up and headed back to the buggy and all the sudden they’re pawing the air wanting to leave because they are winding another one. That is fun and neat to me for several reasons. My dogs won’t usually say anything verbally when they smell or wind one, be it while hunting or rigging, but their body language is undeniable. I love hiding things like hot dog pieces from smaller pups. Not because I feel like I have to but because it’s fun to watch them running around and all of a sudden hit the brakes because they smelled the prize and then go to scrambling trying to line it out. I gives me some pretty good laughs sometimes.


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make-em-squeel
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« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2022, 09:43:55 am »

Ive never tried to train a dog to wind, but ive never had a strike dog that wouldnt... even my cds will wine when they smell one. Id guess anything in the 4-600 yd range make them wine in the back of the truck.
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Austesus
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« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2022, 10:07:42 am »

Thomas, I know you’ve posted before about how you train young dogs with very realistic mock hunts and you like to favor the wind and use to your advantage. Do you think that the early training has taught them to work the wind so well, or do you think that it’s just a genetic trait in your family of dogs? Or a combination of both?


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Reuben
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« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2022, 10:12:24 am »

Austin…as usual, your writings are excellent…

oftentimes when testing pups we will see one or more pups in a litter that will stand out and these will grow up to make outstanding dogs…finding, winding and searching are things to watch for in pups…the style on how they perform is key…for selecting a hunting/breeding type dog we hope to pick from those that are born with a natural inclination to perform as we like…not all breeds or strains perform well when testing as young pups due to different maturity rates and certain ages…

Excellent post T-dog…

A while back I saw one of your writings that your dogs produced 100 percent hunting dogs in a litter…back in the early 1990’s through about 2007 I saw that as well in the dogs I had at that time…haven’t had that since…been piddling with the wrong dogs too long…lol
I haven’t established the new dogs just yet and running out of time at 66…
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
Reuben
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« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2022, 10:19:53 am »

Ive never tried to train a dog to wind, but ive never had a strike dog that wouldnt... even my cds will wine when they smell one. Id guess anything in the 4-600 yd range make them wine in the back of the truck.

I do agree with what you are saying…but something to consider…
Sometimes we have one dog making the other me too dogs look good because they follow the strike dogs lead…same thing with winding…but I am not saying a dog does not learn…I am mainly talking about what I think is the best…

As you probably know some dogs need very little scent to trigger the winding response and others may need a stronger scent to respond…
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
t-dog
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« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2022, 12:28:03 pm »

Austesus I think it’s a combo of genetics, learning from older dogs they are hunted with, and those early games I play with them. I’m kinda a mix between Reubens train of thought and the old mans way of thinking. I want to pick the most natural and instinctive pup in a litter and I don’t think you gotta do all the testing to get that pup, just paying attention to them is usually enough for me. That being said I do think that a pup that is challenged during adolescence has a head start when the live action starts. From my experience the naturals start contributing after a handful of hunts. The pups that mock hunted or were played with while growing up almost go on their first real hunt thinking they’re already hog dogs and the number of hunts is cut down even more. Some would say what’s the rush and my answer would be that the prime hunting weather is very limited. Every species on earth doesn’t thinks less when it gets tired or hot and even less when it gets tired and hot. The fewer new things they are being exposed to the more “HOG” knowledge they are able to retain. So things like winding hogs are noticed and learned instead of the mind set of oh damn why is everybody taking off so fast? That’s just my way of thinking.


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Reuben
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« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2022, 12:53:00 pm »

Testing is a form of training…and a trained eye can pick a pup that has that special it factor…not always noticeable but some have it…it is that aura about them…an above it all attitude…I haven’t had something like that in a while…
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
Reuben
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« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2022, 01:16:26 pm »

I didn’t see it as a pup but Diesel had that distinguished look to him which is a nice trait to see in a dog…kind of having that calm laid back attitude until it’s time to go to work or play…
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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