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Author Topic: What do you think?  (Read 1305 times)
desertdog1
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« on: June 15, 2022, 10:18:51 am »

I have a question for the BMC guys....I have a Ladner BMC who I'm pretty happy with except for one thing, this dog will not let me mess with his muzzle or ears if I'm trying to doctor him, won't let me pull cactus out of his lips or muzzle/nose or clean ears etc.  He will bite me if I try too hard.  I snap his collar to a chain link fence to restrain him but he goes apenumber 2 and I can't do much.   I started handling his ears face etc. when he was 7 weeks old and he's always been this way. Is this unusual with this breed?   Thanks..Mike B
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make-em-squeel
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« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2022, 03:30:54 pm »

unusual yes, i have had 1 do it in all my years of owning them, not common though
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t-dog
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« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2022, 05:54:25 pm »

You’re a better man than me, he bites me once and I promise you he’ll know I bite harder. I’m a firm believer in you don’t bite the hand that feeds you. To me that’s a total sign of disrespect because he’s been messed with all his life and knows you aren’t a threat. Don’t matter what breed either, they better know their place. If I have spent the time to teach them how to do cart wheels, they better dang well do cart wheels when I tell them to. They are no different than my kid or horse in that regard.


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t-dog
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« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2022, 06:50:44 pm »

I should say that I would be somewhat understanding of the cactus but the rest of it NO


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Austesus
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« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2022, 07:04:33 pm »

I have had several ladners and dogs that were part Ladner. I’ve had one of the full ladners growl at me over a food bowl and I gave him a lengthy come to Jesus meeting using that metal bowl and he’s never done it since. None of mine have ever acted out of the way just for touching them, the 2 full ladners have been a little hot with other dogs, especially when they were under a year old.

I would not deal with one getting nasty towards me or a family member. First time they get a physical lesson to permanently fix it in their heads to never do that again. I’ve not had a dog give me a problem after that but if they did I would cull them on the spot.


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jsh
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« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2022, 05:42:11 am »

Never seen that before. He’s got a crossed wire somewhere, doesn’t mean he’s not a good dog though.

It’s a tough one. I am probably a little more analytical on this than some, there’s a difference between a snap and a bite. Dogs can’t talk to us so their only way of defense is fight or flight, if he’s tied up then he only has one option. Even if you hobble and muzzle him you still cannot work on his head so that doesn’t help.

If he’s just a mean dog or an a$$hole, that’s one thing. If you’ve hand raised him from 7 weeks and he’s doing this there is a deeper issue. Ear problem, mouth problem etc.

IMO if he’s biting he is not be going to be able to stay around even as a house dog because the first thing people are inclined to do is walk up and scratch their head.
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t-dog
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« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2022, 09:40:35 am »

Snapping and biting are only different in the sense that one is a warning and one means you shouldn’t have done that. I’m not ok with either. If you have to tend to it and he snaps at you then all that means is the next one is a bite. I would agree that there could be an underlying issue except he’s always been like that. For that reason I lean more towards faulty wiring. If he doesn’t mind biting for one reason he likely won’t mind biting for another. JMO of course.


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desertdog1
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« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2022, 01:48:45 pm »

Another time I tried to remove cactus from his mouth area I fastened the leash to a tree, got out my Leatherman and  when I tried to grab the cactus he started biting the Leatherman, I got mad and yelled at him, he took a step backward and started snarling/growling and showing his teeth at me, like a Jekyl and Hyde.....Really surprised me. 
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Reuben
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« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2022, 09:38:55 pm »

As a 7 week old pup the pup should have been broke of any aggression…a hard slap on top of the head and and again if the pup keeps growling and or hackled up…when the pup starts wagging his tail is the time to pet them up…this usually happens at feeding time with some pups…when the pup that shows aggression at feeding time it must be totally broken from any aggressive issues by feeding and messing with the pup until it doesn’t hackle up…might take a while to break him and then test regularly when feeding to make it a normal condition…

When disciplining a dog we should leave the dog a way out…you want the dog to retreat away from you so you can maintain alpha status…if you corner a dog or the dog feels he doesn’t have a way out he will take a stance and fight back or come out fighting…the last thing you want is for the dog to lose respect for you…

I can and will come down on any of my dogs but I know better than to put a dog in a situation where he feels that he or she has to fight their way out…we just need to know when and how much discipline to apply for the correction needed…
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Reuben
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« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2022, 09:46:51 pm »

I also think when disciplining a dog we must maintain our cool…once in a while we do need to make a statement…

If I had a dog that I couldn’t break from possibly biting someone I would eventually get rid of it…
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The Old Man
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« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2022, 10:52:03 pm »

Lots of the strain of Curs I have will bite a stranger at my house or truck and trailer if me or my wife aren't with you, but once turned loose they pay strangers no attention at all, they are looking to work. Haven't had any want to bite me in normal handling but a few didn't want to take a whipping.
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TheRednose
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« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2022, 10:53:17 pm »

Can you give him a hard correction or does he get growly at a certain point?
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desertdog1
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« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2022, 10:35:19 am »

Can you give him a hard correction or does he get growly at a certain point?

I've never whipped him, a slap on the head is the most I've had to do.  The only time He acts up is if I'm trying to doctor his face area, the other day I chased him off his food bowl and he backed up and bared his teeth at me (twice)..He minds good, is very affectionate, it's just that if he feels threatened he changes into a  jerk. If I tried to hold his collar and give him a whipping I'm sure he would try to bite me.
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t-dog
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« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2022, 12:19:00 pm »

Sounds like as much or more that he’s challenging you than feeling threatened. He wouldn’t make it here. You can probably fix a lot of that but the way I am, I wouldn’t like his natural demeanor enough to feed him another kibble. We all have vises that we will tolerate when it comes to dogs. For me, biting and fighting are my two biggest dislikes. I have ZERO tolerance for either. Either get along or you’ll get along lol.


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desertdog1
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« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2022, 02:45:53 pm »

Thanks everyone for the advice and input....
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Reuben
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« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2022, 06:39:02 pm »

Sounds like as much or more that he’s challenging you than feeling threatened. He wouldn’t make it here. You can probably fix a lot of that but the way I am, I wouldn’t like his natural demeanor enough to feed him another kibble. We all have vises that we will tolerate when it comes to dogs. For me, biting and fighting are my two biggest dislikes. I have ZERO tolerance for either. Either get along or you’ll get along lol.


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Yep…when the dog feels threatened and defends himself and you backed down…now the dog knows he can challenge you anytime he dislikes something you want from him…it is much harder to break a dog once this happens…know when and how much is key…

Even a chihuahua will come out fighting when he feels threatened when cornered…

That is why I said earlier that you must know when and how much discipline to apply…if you like your dog
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TheRednose
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« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2022, 08:17:16 pm »

Can you give him a hard correction or does he get growly at a certain point?

I've never whipped him, a slap on the head is the most I've had to do.  The only time He acts up is if I'm trying to doctor his face area, the other day I chased him off his food bowl and he backed up and bared his teeth at me (twice)..He minds good, is very affectionate, it's just that if he feels threatened he changes into a  jerk. If I tried to hold his collar and give him a whipping I'm sure he would try to bite me.

It's become a pecking order issue now, he knows he can back you off with a growl or bite and it's not that he will do that all the time but he will any time you truly try to force him to do something he doesn't want to.

I have too many people around and in my dog yard including kids to tolerate that. I'm not telling you what to do but I would cull the dog. You may not want to hear that but I could not take the risk of the dog biting someone. I would not even feel comfortable selling or giving the dog away even if the person taking him knew the dogs history because in my head it's still on me. That is just how I think about things to each his own.

Good luck.
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Reuben
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« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2022, 11:18:33 pm »

The bottom line…

Example using a feeding scenario because it is simple and easy to correct and it applies to the majority of discipline issues that come up…

We feed the pup and it growls and hackles up…give it a good tap on the head always keeping your cool…the pup will know if your doing it with anger…

Keep messing with the food bowl,and the pup growls again… give a harder tap on the head…keep working with the feed bowl or something close to the food bowl and repeat the process until the pup wags its tail…only at that time you pet the pup…repeat daily until he totally gets the hang of it…

The idea is for the pup to get the message…and not only to get the message but for the pup to remain confident and trusting around you…when you can do that you will have a better relationship with the pup and eventually, the dog that it will become…

Another thing…no self respecting dog will take excessive discipline…choose how you discipline wisely…usually, you can discipline most any dog you own as long as it has a way to retreat…

In my yard I have done lots of correcting…I have learned that when correcting they will circle back to me and lick my hand, I call it asking for forgiveness…at least that is how I see it and it also builds trust when I accept their apology…
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A hunting dog is born not made...
desertdog1
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« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2022, 07:10:32 am »

Maybe I didn't elaborate enough...The dog only gets chitty when I try to doctor his face area, I can handle or touch the face area otherwise with no problems. When he was a tiny pup he growled at me once when eating,  I smacked him,  picked up his bowl and he never did it again. I can pick up hs bowl while he's eating no problem.  The other day there was another dog standing next to him and  for some reason I picked up his bowl, yelled at him and he retreated 3-4 feet and breifly bared his teeth, no growiling.  He's very possesive about food or bones around other dogs. He minds very well in every other way...
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TheRednose
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« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2022, 11:32:55 am »

The bottom line…

Example using a feeding scenario because it is simple and easy to correct and it applies to the majority of discipline issues that come up…

We feed the pup and it growls and hackles up…give it a good tap on the head always keeping your cool…the pup will know if your doing it with anger…

Keep messing with the food bowl,and the pup growls again… give a harder tap on the head…keep working with the feed bowl or something close to the food bowl and repeat the process until the pup wags its tail…only at that time you pet the pup…repeat daily until he totally gets the hang of it…

The idea is for the pup to get the message…and not only to get the message but for the pup to remain confident and trusting around you…when you can do that you will have a better relationship with the pup and eventually, the dog that it will become…

Another thing…no self respecting dog will take excessive discipline…choose how you discipline wisely…usually, you can discipline most any dog you own as long as it has a way to retreat…

In my yard I have done lots of correcting…I have learned that when correcting they will circle back to me and lick my hand, I call it asking for forgiveness…at least that is how I see it and it also builds trust when I accept their apology…

Reuben that is all fine and dandy but that ship has already sailed for taps to correct aggression issues now. This is a grown dog baring teeth over things he doesn't like. And every time another issue happens and he gets away with it, it just reinforces it more in the dog. At this point there are only three ways to deal with it, and only the last two would be viable to me. One is he could just ignore it and or do his best to not get in those situations with the dog and hope none of his loved ones do either. Two cull the dog. Or three do the work to break the behavior. Watch how a professional trainer breaks this behavior in a grown dog, it takes work, commitment, and consistency and depending on how bad it actually is at this point it might be more than most regular dogs owners are willing to do or can do.

Also if I raised them then I can discipline them whether they have a way to retreat or not and if I couldn't they wouldn't be here long. I agree there are always limits but if you are a good handler then you shouldn't need to make many "hard" corrections and even those should be done intelligently and within reason. Association is everything when it comes to dog training, so it's always good to keep that in mind with all of your interactions with your dogs. This is all just my opinion so take it for what its worth.
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