EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

I have learned to be a stickler for a few things more so then other in (dogs) and in no particular order these are it;
a) BONES (I like nice STRONG bones) it is what holds EVERYTHING in place, kind of like the frame work in a building.
b) STRUCTURE (I like nice proper angles) both in the front and rear assemblies once you lose this structure recovering it will take a lot.
c) hunting drive ---I believe I do not have to say too much about this that has not already been said.

---NOW--- Why am I so picky about these things? Because once you lose these things it is nearly impossible to recover them, IT will take a lot of culling to remove it from your breeding program and or bring it back, IT IS THE FIRST THING THAT YOU LOOSE as well. 

The way a dog is built will prolongs his life, enhance his ability to work efficiently, how he moves in the woods is intricately a part of how he is built/put together understanding this will make dog better.  I know many folks only have an interest in catching hogs and dogs are just a way of doing this faster and more efficiently, then there are others of us who are also interested in the Dogs themselves and the science behind the art.

I will leave you with a few article I LOVE:

http://www.fredlanting.org/2008/10/front-and-rear-angulation-in-the-working-dog-2/

http://www.siriusdog.com/anatomy-working-canine-dog-shoulder.htm

PLEASE FOLKS let’s remember that once you lose proper structure, bone and hunting drive it is difficult to bring back these attributes, these things SHOULD be priority if you are going to breed UNLESS of course maintaining and improving is not your main focus ---$$$$---


Discuss????

Oly, in my experience as a breeder, you are very correct!

For me, I had the hardest time maintaining the hunt drive in my dogs. It sure is hard to cull a dog that is perfect in form in every way because he don't hunt to my standards, or even at all.

I was sickened to the point of giving up. It was the best thing for me now that I look back on it. I had no business trying to breed dogs in those days. I knew exactly what I wanted but I was clueless on how to get it.

If you are going to breed, you better cull. Ensuring the proper placement of pups plays a large role in this. Most folks can't keep an entire litter to evaluate and cull properly. So, placing them with folks that will is imperative.

For structure...the type of work will sort the structure if your are sorting and culling to a strict, high standard. The dogs that work at a high level regularly and frequently will obviously have the most correct structure for the job at hand. I guess what I'm saying is that if you do your due diligence in evaluating, sorting and removing from the genepool those that don't meet the working standard...structure (or lack there of) will not be an issue.

I love a dog that can just flow through the woods and make it look effortless. A dog that has the structure to move faster than the dogs around him and make it look easy.. In the perfect world all my dogs would be built like that and of course I do my best to breed for it but it's not my number one priority.. My number one prority is  WANT TO..  It makes me sick to think of how many AWESOME built dogs I've seen that never would do a thing and then you got some little goofy lookin dog that's tearing the woods up,lol... If we could just order them like wanted then it would be so much easier..  I totally agree that a dogs structure definitely gives him an advantage in being able to do what we are in the woods to do but that WANT TO is just a hard thing to pin point...

It is most important to me... I cull based on this first... if a dog isn't built the way I like, I don't care how good he hunts, how many hogs he produces... not the dog for me.

From those "balanced" dogs that remain, only the best hunters get to reproduce.  Like Chain said, a dog that flows and is FAST is what I look for... proper structure facilitates this...

to me there is a difference between a dog thats good enough to feed and a dog thats good enough to breed .

i will use a dog that might be sub par structurally , if hes got what it takes to get it done in the other department .

in my opinion , for a breeding quality dog he / she needs to be above average in both ways , and be out of dogs that are the same .

I feel like its a complete package hunt, heart, drive, brains, and built right. Lacking one or the other its gonna have its effect in the woods in the long term on the other traits. If a dog is great hunter, heart and drive but physically not able to have stamina, or stay sound those other traits are not gonna matter/factor when it comes time to choose which is brood quality. I will still hunt a dog if I like the dog but it is a prospect for spay/neuter at that point.
I will also take into consideration a dog that has had several serious injuries (not genectic faults) for instance cartlidge/scar tissue build up in an elbow joint, of a dog that has been cut in the same local area multiple times, and that dog becomes lame after a hard workout, that dog is not a weak speciman but a factor of circumstance and that dog is still breedable. However if I have not raised that dog from start to finish and definate about the health history than a serious limp after a hard race/fight, will be a considered a fault in my book. I have a gyp that fits this description of injuries, at nearly 8 years of age, and only bred once, the offspring are coming two and the pups that are still around are doing well and I may consider using her one more time, IF I need another pup.
I also do believe FORM follows function, if a dog is not sound physically it can't keep up and work strenuosily multiple times a week for years. A dog that only hunts or works a couple times a month can't be judged the same way. Hip, joints, hearing, sight, issues will come out when a dog is being worked solid, won't have the shelf life. To me it has to perform, if it can perform to the standards I set, then I will consider it for breeding but it takes the whole package to be an effective animal

crystal , you are better with words than i . thats about what i was trying to say . :D

VERY IMPORTANT, 

Oly, great question.

I equally consider conformation, drive, style, and cleanness of gait in my dogs and will not settle for any real flaws in a dog I keep as a breeding prospect.

Each breeder should have their own ideal for conformation that allows their dogs to excel in their personal hunting style and terrain where they hunt.

Hunting drive is a little easier but you have got to put your dogs down with the best you can find to see how they compare. The best in a particular litter might not look so good when paired against another top dog from someone else's yard.

Style is a big deal to me personally. In a catch-dog I want very clean holding style. A dog that gets sloppy and cut all the time is not a dog I want to breed even though it is a super hard catching machine.

Style in a bay dog is even more important to me. I get to spend hours watching my dogs bay cattle and can pick out very small differences in style between dogs that you would not even begin notice while hog hunting. For instance in a settled cow bay I pay particular attention to what triggers a dog to stop circling and start engaging a particular steer. This will be triggered by the distance the steers body extends from the compact herd. This starts with a nose sticking out, head out to the jaw, head and neck, daylight behind the front leg, rib, hind leg, and daylight for the whole body, ect.... Each dog will engage at one of these points and the more consistent this engagement is across a litter the happier I am. I have several other things I look for and evaluate regarding bay style but will not go into those here just giving you an idea.

Cleanness of gait is very important as well. I want a dog that hunts on the run not a trot with a long springy stride.  I also want a flat leg with not alot of knee action. And their legs need to travel and hit the ground straight with their body. This is necessary for speed and durability over time.

Thanks,
Paul T

Thanks folks for your replies ---I by no means judge or put another man’s/women’s work/dogs down--- LOTS of folks putting in quit a lot of time and serious effort in their dogs.

I will admit I am more of a dog person then hunter, I hunt and got into it BECAUSE of the dogs and pork is nice but my day is not ruined if I do not get one ---NOW my topic stems from some careful observation and personal study of working animals particularly dogs--- I have seen folks complaint about certain dogs NOT being able to keep up with other, or not be as fast or work as long (My dog doesn’t have enough bottom) and when going hunting with these people and observing the dogs GATE (as Mr., Paul explained so well) EVERYTHING makes sense, it cannot possibly be expected for a dog to work what is required of him IF he is not built for it independent of what many folks may say FORM does follow Function, a dog without the proper FORM can NOT function his task effectively.

NOW I am NOT about forgetting the WORKING aspect of the animal and that’s is VERY important, BUT as breeders I think it is our responsibility to GIVE THE DOG THE PROPER TOOLS.  I do not buy into the notion that WORK will cull the ones that are NOT built right--- I have seen dogs DIE (literaly) trying ---they were ALL heart, BUT didn’t have any other tool in their arsenal to continue the job for a prolonged amount of time.

Then I went ahead and started observing/studying those dogs that lived to 7 and 8 years of age and still continued hunting at that age and those dogs that rarely got cut or cuts were minor relative to their counter parts AND THEN MY FRIENDS--- the whole thing made even more sense ---these dogs did they not only have one of the MAIN tools to do the job which is HEART--- but they also had properly built front and rear assemblies angles TO DIE FOR---proper head type if a bulldog or the head of a sent hnd for a cur dog--- 

It goes without mentioning the fact that these dogs where tended to properly with great feed and plenty fresh water and proper vet care.

We cannot over look the conditions in which a dog has to work under (Mountains, Plains, Desert, Swamps etc) that would also require an adjustment in a dogs build IMPO.


UFFFF I got carried away---I apologies for the long post Ladies and Gents.

PD. Krystal GREAT POST---

Oly, not quite clear on what you're saying here...are you stating that form follows function, or that conformation comes before work?


I disagree...the work will cull the ones that aren't built for it. The hunter/handler just has to have the experience/knowledge to understand what they're seeing and act on it in the appropriate fashion. IMO most folks lack the objectivity to scrutinize and act. Cull = removing from the genepool (ie. not breeding the dog), not that the dog may not be servicable, just not good enough to breed.

No Scott not at all  :)  :)  --- I am saying that IMPO one is equally as important as the other, IF a dog doesn’t have the proper tools he CANNOT possibly do his job effectively and efficiently no matter how much he wants to--- in the other hand a dog that may have the tools to do the job may not have THE MAIN TOOL and then of course the obvious must follow in either cases.

On your second reply my response is ---in that case YES you are correct--- NATURALLY however it won’t especially if the dog has plenty of heart.

NOW we cannot at times just discard a dog because he may not have X or Y tool and that would GREATLY depend on what’s behind him there is NO perfect dog and we are always working with one defect or another ---I would definitely work with a dog with tons of heart and maybe a bit straight in the rear or front---


Sorry for the edit

O

I have a 13 weeks old femmale that is showing great potential already in all aspects, especially structure and movement! I just don't know how to post pictures otherwise I would post a few. Would you guys be able to post pictures of dogs YOU believe to have the "perfect" structure for the types of hunting you do? Thanks

I like a good looking mtn cur that looks right and has a lot of hunt. The dog must look right with what I call a hard body. What I mean is a dog that is naturally muscular with fine lines even if kenneled for long periods of time. He is the middle linebacker on the team. He is not the fastest or the strongest but probably the best all around athlete.

I like to feed a dog that looks right, hunts right and it must not have any quit. The dog I'm talking about can die of heat exhaustion because the dog will not quit if there are hogs to be bayed or caught. I am not talking about a long haired fat dog.

It must have the complete package.


It is a great pleasure to own one that hunts and looks right especially if you bred it and selected it.

It cost the same to feed a cull as it does to feed a great one.

My dogs are culls i think. If yall got dogs that will shut one down and ya dont like their looks i take em. My catch dog is the ugliest thing i ever saw. Guess i got alot to learn about breeding ; only had one litter and culled the deaf one. I do not have access to very many dogs so i am thankful for what i got even though i dont catch as many as most. This site is a bundle of knowledge.