EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

Ok guys now that the smoke has cleared from all the brain farts I had last nite from trying to remember a lot of things I have not even give a second thought about for years on top of years now lets see if I can clear some of this stuff up.

Now the ole Family dogs were dogs that were brought in from other countrys back around the turn of the century around the 1900's and even late 1800's.  They called these dogs the ole Family dogs because they came from Ireland , Scottland  and  some from England from the ole familys that bred these dogs back then.  They came in all colors Red, Buckskin and even Black dogs .  Also they came in Red Noses and Black Noses.

Here is the deal , Colby imported a lot of these dogs well Wilder got a holt of a lot of them as did Mr Hemphill and Sarona but Sorana is a differnt deal as you will see later on in this post .  Now  Wilder is the man that should get most the credit for the Old Family Red Nose dogs because Wilder is the man that intinally seperated the Red nose dogs from the black nosed dogs he believed for some reason that the Red Nose dogs were more game than the black nose dogs and so he went fourth with his program and here they became the Old Family Red Nose dogs the birth of that family of dogs .

Now Hemphill was in there with Wilder but what seperated Wilder from Hemphill was Hemphill did not care about the nose color of dogs all he cared about was the talent and the gameness of these dogs so he bred Red Nosed dogs and Black nosed dogs and bred them together according to there skills and gamenss .  Ok now this is what seperates the two men and the two differnt types of dogs I was telling you about the Old Family Red Nose dogs which is  a stricked family of dogs with all red noses  and the Old Family Reds which were dogs that Hemphill bred and they came in Red Noses and also in black noses .

 Keep in mind now Hemphill and Wilder were bulldog crazy and all of there dogs were tested and culled hard hard hard.

Ok now.

In around the 1960 era I think this is the correct date but now enters Mr Sarona I think that is spelled right dont know .  But Sarona enters the picture in the 1960's and he starts to breed Red Nosed dogs and strickly Red Nose dogs but Sarona did not test and check a lot of his dogs if any and he started to breed show dogs .  So Sarona yes had a family of dogs but they were not tested like the Wilder / Hemphill lines were and there for this is were the Red Nosed dogs started to suffer threw the years and a lot of them became show dogs instead of performace dogs .  You could not give me a Sarona dog !  Period !

Ok now .  There were only like four different Old Family lines of dogs that came from Ireland , Scottland  and England to make the American Pit Bull Terrier . 

Now there was a Old Family line that was called the Blu Paul line of dogs and this line of dogs were black dogs and this is were like the Joe Corvino types of dogs came from and a lot of Tudor dogs if am thinking right and on down the line to the Eli line of dogs this is why the Eli dogs were black dogs .  I think cant remember again but I think Con Feely dogs were crossed with this Blu Paul line of old family dogs and this is were Tudors Black Jack came from hell am trying to remember again .

Anyway I will think some more on all of this but hope yall enjoy this read .  Its amazing what a man can forget when he is not around it everyday like he was for almost 30 yrs . Lived and breathed bulldogs .

Also the mans name I was trying to think of last nite that bred the Old Family Reds his name was Winstead and let me tell you from what I hear and was told and know those dogs were some of the best dogs to ever breath .  I dont know if you can find much info on Winstead are not but those were some fine fine dogs Old Family Reds.

It was rumored years ago that Boudreaxs Buttons was a pure Winstead dog go look her ped up it is not right from the old information and sources I know and believe.

Talking on the Blu Paul old family line the black dogs. Mayfeild  dogs were had a lot of this old family of dogs way in the back the Blu Paul family of black dogs ,  Maloney dogs had the old family dogs in them it just goes on and on .

So Colby had little to do with it once the dogs had been imported? And where does Carver come into play?

Thanks for this I find myself fascinated with this history over the past few months.

Aw yeah man Colby had a lot to do with all of it .  He was the one that was getting  his friends and buddys from other countrys to import the dogs he would ck the dogs out  and if he liked this are that he would tell them hey get this kind of dogs imported and from what I heard they would and then Colby would buy them .  He had his own line of dogs himself from all of this .  Thats how from what I understand Wilder and Hemphill got there start in it all .

Carver started out as only a refree and he went to all the big time stuff he met all the high rollers and big money guys and became friends with them all by doing big time refree work besides he was a party Hound lol that didnt hurt him and he was ahahhaahhaahah smooth man smooth .  By doing all of this he knew were all the great and good dogs were and who was who .  He was given this dog are that dog bred this one and that one and then bought dogs also and si the Carver line of dogs were born . 

You know most all of this we are talking about  was before my time I just got to know lots of people and became great friends with a lot of bulldog legends and so by doing so I had the privilege of gaining all this information everything I know from their knowledge .  The old old men .   

I would like to also say that most of this is pretty dang accurate from the real sources over time.  Now am sure some of it can be corrected because my memory is not as good as it use to be when I studied all of this night and day.  So if any one that knows more than I do are has more good info on all of this and would like to jump in please do so it will not hurt my feelings at all .  The way I see it if I can be corrected with good hard info thats a better thing for me and I will have just learned something new .  So please if you see something and know about it jump right on in here and we will do our best to get to the bottom of it .  Its noting but History people just history that some has been written about documented and everything else in books and other means  .

thats alot of Info....thanks

from me.....who else. tapatalk

Man that soubds about like what I have read most of the lines today are a mix of these lines.

Now two more gator and chinaman?

I'm gonna enjoy this 'un. :)

Speaking of Carver from all my old friends that knew Carver personal and there was more than a few.   There is one old old pictular personal friend of mine that knew him well and what was going on back in those days and was in the mix and ran with all these guys .  This is how it was explained to me about Carver.

Anyone that knows anything about Bulldog history knows that Earl Tudor was the man plain and simple he was the light of day and the dark of nite so to speak the Man of the bulldog world and still the man even in death  !

Now Tudor was a dogman and there was not many dogs that was let off his yard and if they were,  from what I was told you paid the price and he never let anything out that was better than what he had .  This is how he made a lot of his money.  The dogs he had he worked and used himself they were not dogs to just look at and sit on chains .

Well as it was told to me as Earl Tudor got up in his older years he could not take care of all his dogs like he use to and some dogs started slipping  threw the cracks , some were stolen I was told and they just filtered away as he got older and then died.
D.B was a great friend to Tudor and from what I have been told Tudor looked upon him as nearly a son and Earl gave D.B his start in dogs at a very young age.  Some of the dogs D.B. got as one would expect .

Now the others slipped threw the cracks and crevises as one would expect and others I was told were stolen and more than a few people benifitted from Tudors death other wise nobody would have ever got there hands on these dogs.

Carver was one that knew Tudor and he knew were alot of these dogs were and who knows how he got his hands on them am not one to say but after Tudors death Carver  ended up with more than a hand full of these Tudor dogs.

As I had said there was more than one that bennifited from Tudors death not only Carver but some of these dogs made there way to R.G , F.B. , Mayfield and a few others all dogmen that went on to be leadgens of their times . 

These Tudor dogs were potent as most know Tudors Dibo, Tudors Jeff, Black Widow, Tudors Spike , Tudors Black Jack and many many more they are all in the back of all of Carvers dogs , Boudreax dogs , Greenwoods dogs , Mayfeilds dogs  all the great  great old breeders and they owe it all to Earl Tudor and what he done to keep that family of dogs all the years that he had them.  They were not pedigrees they were dogs and great ones at that .

Back to Carver .  Once Carver got his hands on these Tudor dogs he took off like a Tomahawk Missile .  Carvers Miss Spike , Carvers or Tudors Black Widow , Arts Missy and it just goes on and on .  The same as Boudreax dogs Blind Billy , Boze , Eli , Spook .  The same goes for Mayfeild most all of the great dogs from Mayfeild are Tudor dogs ,  The Greenwood dogs and it just goes on all these great dogs right off all those great Tudor dogs that got scattered when Tudor died .

It all started with Colby importing dogs and the breeders of his time and from there to the Tudor era along with Corvino, Trahan Hinze, Bert Clouse  and all those guys in that era and then to the breeders that we all know so much Boudreax, Mayfeild, Maloney , Greenwood, Sorrells and many more of this era .

I know I left a lot out but this is how it was explained to me by a great old dog man of old old times.

At one point Tudor could not get a match so he would throw out a 3 match deal where he would have to win all 3 to win the purse. If you could beat him in one you won it all. I hear he didn't lose many doing that.

Yeah Tudor was a son of a gun man from everything I been told threw the years.  Mean as a rattle snake too from what I heard.

Man if any of yall know anything about what I posted eariler on Carver and all that stuff hell put it up there because what I have said is what I was told and may not all be excatly right but I think a whole lot of it pretty accurate  but there is different sides to the storys I know.   This is just from the men I knew and what they had to say about all of it .

When you bought a dog or pup from Carver it was pretty unlikely that it was bred the way he said it was. He would give you the meal but not the recipe. That being said, he was great about replacing one if it didn't work out. Some of the best dogs out there with Carvers name on them have false papers.

Jimmy...if Tudor was the ultimate dogman for the game dogs then he must of had the eye for a dog with heart and gameness...probably tested as hard as anyone and only bred the very best and no less...must of kept them related to a certain point...I don't know any of how those men bred dogs back then for the ultimate game but I sure would like to know...any other way and there must of been a lot of culls...I know to breed a great line of curs takes what I mentioned above but never have known how the elites bred their game dogs...what do you know about their breeding strategy/programs???

Rueben ,  Tudor was the ulitmate dog man , dog handler, dog conditioner and dog breeder.  He was all of it rolled up in one man .  Eye for dogs , knew dogs inside and out .
Most of all he culled his dogs and back in those days it was all legal to do what he done .  His culling is proably what made his line of dogs so great and he used what he bred it was no selling pups are dogs if he bred it he used it himself .  When he bred dogs he bred best to best but he had so many and culled so hard that lots of times the best of best were related and if they were not it made no difference because they were such great dogs and then later on he would take one that made the cut that was bred like that one and family bred.  It is no different than the way we breed dogs now but he was the ulitmate culler and had the greatest dogs but most of all he never bred on pedigree he bred performace animal to performace animal and if it so happened it was related so be it .  Am sure after so many great breedings he knew which ones were related of his great dogs and bred accordling .  Atleast this is what I was told and know threw men that knew him.  From what am told when he looked at a dog there were no slip up no second chances you blink a eye or made a mistake the dog was out of there gone no excuses . 

Reuben,  I think this is a lot of what is wrong with a lot of lines of dogs today .  Everybody wants to family breed everybody wants how do I say this everybody wants to have dogs that are great dogs but also look great on paper the people that register dogs .  This is all great but it is a mistake if you are not culling it is a double mistake are if you are not culling like you are suppose to be it is a double mistake because one set of bad genes can ruin five gens of great great great properly culled generations of dogs .  Then you send out the pups some make it some don't the ones that do are now carrying those bad genes some were some how now this man takes this dog he makes a dog but not a great dog then he breeds him now the bad genes are getting distributed again and he breeds her to a average female that has some bad genes in her now all these bad genes are compiling , same thing again some make it some don't all average dogs now the ones that gots these dogs breed them and they are average and it just keeps going on and on never getting great great dogs all average to culls .  Then is some lines they breed pretty paper to make that almighty dollar they inbreed they heavy line breed just to get Joe Blow in there 20 times and say they got pure this and pure that when really they got pure chit .  This is why you breed best to best first then best to best again and again then worry about making your family of dogs now you are set with a clean gene pool for the most part to start your family of dogs you take and breed half bro to half sister out of your best to best breedings and go from there building your family of dogs best to best first again family breed and keep family breeding until it tells you its time to cross and start all over again .  Just stop and think about all these high dollar family of dogs how many glorified breeders have done this bred average dogs just to make the ped look great and more money in the pocket .  Its no wonder there is so many average dogs and culls in this world if you don't use what you breed then its since less to even breed a dog are if you are not culling you are just trying to make money .

Dont even make no since !

They didn't call Maurice the "SILVER FOX" for no reason!!!

Where does Mister Crenshaw fit into the scheme of things, as far as legendary breeders go,, in ya'lls opinion?

Which one ?  Ole Mr Ed Chrenshaw are the other Chrenshaw?

i was fortunat to meet some of these folks you guys are talking about some were very nice people,well all were nice people at the place that i meet them because the man that ran the place were we showed the dogs would not tolerate any trouble. still know were a few friends are that show them its very big money now. i know were a litter of double bread eli carver pups are rite now better have some deep pockets though shure enough the real deal  have you guys ever heard of bully son.

What's a normal purse these days? I've heard 5 grand is typical

I'm sure TexasHogDogs will reply, but I was always told that the only reason no one ever stomped a mud hole in Bobby Halls ass is because he had some big fella that hung around with him..... lol

I must say...only talk about the olden days...  ;) popo

Love these gamedog threads..recently got one and there's nothing like them.
Ran across this so thought I'd share...

“The Oklahoma Kid”ByDon MayfieldFall 1982 In 1951 after near 100 years of breeding gamedogs in the U.S.A. the breeding reached a peak.  In Arizona a male named “Bouncer” was bred to a female called “Bambi” by a man called Ed Ritcheson.  In the litter was a red dog with a deep blue black nose.  This dog was bred from the Core of American bred gamedogs, he was raised and named by a black man from a pup.  This dog was named “Dibo,” in the heart of Africa the word Dibo means “Devil.”  In his pedigree were over 100 years of American bred gamedogs that had been proven in the pit, all his close family were the gamest bred in the world.  Dibo and his close family was the product of this American breeding, his bloodline showed all the areas of the U.S.A.  The American Gamedogs in Dibo’s pedigree were dogs that proved their gameness in the Core of the gamedog game in America.  These gamedogs came into our nation near the mid 1800’s from Europe.  Some of the gamedogs that were brought into our nation were of “outcross” breeding.  When different pure families in England, Ireland, and Scotland were bred together in their nations, then imported into our nation and bred with either a pure or cross bred family, that were being “matched” into one another to prove which were the gamest families.  Men like Cockney Charlie Lloyd imported pure family breeding, and “pure” English breeding and cross bred it with the English breeding here in our nation.  These men match few dogs, but proved their breeding was of the gamest bred.  In the days of the late 1800’s and early 1900’s Con Feeley who matched more dogs than any man in his time became the breeder of the different outcross English families that had been bred here in the U.S.A., Con bred a family of dogs from what he proved were the games dogs bred in the U.S.A. in his time.  F.G. Henry imported some English red dogs and crossed them with the proven family of the Con Feeleys.In the same days the English dogs were being matched, proven and bred, on the Northern coast of our nation.  The Irish families were being done the same way in the area of the East Coast.  J.P. Colby was a man that bred together different pure Irish game families with the Irish outcrosses that was being crossed together on the East Coast.  A number of different men matched and proved the gameness of the breeding that were being bred at the “Core” of the “game.”  In the late 1800’s and early 1900’s the Irish dogs of outcross breeding, the ones that were proving themselves as the gamest bred, made it to Texas in the yard of Bill Shipley.  Bill imported a pure Irish family from Ireland and crossed it with the crossbred family that had been bred in the U.S.A.In the early 1900’s the next name to fill the shoes of the number one gamedog man of his time, and only a few men here in this new nation had wore these shoes, the last was Con Feeley from Illinois.  But in 1908 Earl Tudor showed up in Oklahoma from Kentucky.  Earl matched more dogs and proved his understanding of gameness more than any man in his time.  He bred together the families of F.G. Henry to the families of Con Feeley.  In the late 1930’s and early 1940’s Earl was proving his breeding the gamest bred.  At that time he crossed the dogs of the purest that had been proven of the English breeding to the Irish families of Bill Shipley, 200 miles from him in Texas.  This brought together the games dogs bred from the north and the gamest dogs bred from the East to near the center of the U.S.A.  In the days of Earl Tudor when he proved his breeding the gamest bred, dogs from his breeding were being bred in most the States in the U.S.A., this was in the 1940’s.  In the early 1950’s Earl Tudor was in Arizona looking at the breeding of the gamedogs, when he was taken to see the dog “Dibo.”  Earl liked very much what he saw, and took the dog back to Oklahoma with him.  At first he called this red dog “Runt,” but later he changed his name back to “Dibo.”  Earl bred “Dibo” to a number of females bred from his family of dogs.  In the late 1950’s and early 1960’s Earl began to bring together a family of dogs breeding them “pure.”  His dogs were different than any of the different families being bred in the U.S.A.  The one’s from his families were the ones at the “Core” with most all the other breeding in the U.S.A. being of outcross breeding from Earl’s yard.In the years of early 1960’s to the early 1970’s Earl bred his understanding of “American Gamedogs” into a family of dogs that all looked alikeIn the early 1960’s to the late 1970’s we proved the gameness of more “American Gamedogs” than any man of our time at the “Core” of the game.  (Before the game became against the “law.”)  Today in the early 1980’s society around the world is seeking the gamest family of dogs bred in the world.  Here in Texas on a mountain top beside a long creek we have bred from the “Core” a family of very “pure American Game bred dogs.”  In the last number of years we have bred only a small number of dogs from this family.  At this time when a number of nations are seeking the gamest family of dogs bred, it being the “American Gamedog,” it being “proven” in a number of nations matched into the different men’s understanding of gameness.  At this same time “Paul Harvey” a newsman said, “in a nation today man is trying to prove a dog has a “spirit and soul” that goes to “heaven”.  I am an outcross bred Texas man that has spent over 20 years looking into the insides of dogs, I am a believer the dogs house the “spirit and soul” of the devil, and is becoming man’s best friend.  Here in the U.S.A. where the people of the most outcross breeding are born, we are the breeders of the gamest dogs bred in the world.  Here in Texas where the most outcross bred people in the U.S.A. are raised, we breed a game family of American Gamedogs to the point of gameness that that only (3) kinds of people can bear to be around them.  Those three kinds of people are people that feed them, and people like a “saint,” are a person with the faith of the devil himself.  The ones like the “saint” the dogs will be scared of, and show fight along with the jump in his lap and lick him all over his face.  But when a man of little faith looks eye to eye with this kind of game bred dog, the man become within great danger of this dog.  But the dog will be scared of the ones more like saints and turn their heads away from them.  I have watched many of these game bred dogs as they are looked in the eye of by a number of men we have met in our time with these dogs.  I have looked also at the men when hey do the looking.This story I write you seeker of gamedogs comes from my understanding of the research we have involved ourselves with in over the last near 25 years, of Gamedogs and Gamemen who I have been a lover of both.  In my eyes the gamest man ever bred was our Lord Jesus.  He being an outcross bred man of God and mankind and took his death on the cross other than tell one little lie.  That is the faith and spirit of a gameman.One Fall morning at sunrise in the year of 1961 we met Earl Tudor at his home in Oklahoma.  We had with us a nice bred female bred from his family of dogs.  We came to meet him and talk to him about breeding the female.  We did a lot of talking and bred the female, then drove the near 250 miles back home in Texas.  Within the next number of years we made the trip to Earl’s place many times.  On one trip I remember sitting on a couch with Earl as he had bad eyes and always wanted me to sit close so he could look me in the eyes when we talked.  We most always talked about breeding, as we sat talking, trying to stare each other down.  We had our own ways of understanding conditions and taught each other what we had done, and were doing.  But when it came time to talk about breeding I only asked questions.  I remember one time Earl who was in his mid 60’s about that time, broke down in tears and cried like a bay as he told me, “these damn so called friends of one dog deal or another who steal the credit of every dog bred, never gave me one damn bit of credit for “my dogs.”  Then he would wipe the tears from his eyes, put his glasses back on, get in my face and say; it’s all in the “breeding” Don, it’s all in the “breeding.”  Then he would tell dogs and others, he would tell me about the breeding of those dogs as the pure ones, the family bred dogs, not the cross ones, the pure ones.  Then I would say Earl, what was the best ones that you had, he would cock his head, and his wife Flo would speak up and say, “the best dogs Earl had were the old Henry dogs, you never lost a match with a Henry dog did you Earl???” and Earl with a smile on his face would say; “You’re right Flo, the dogs of old man Henry’s family were the red eyed dogs and were game to the core.”  He would say to me, “The eyes were as red as a coon’s eyes, they had a big mouth with a lot of muscle in the head, most were black, but some were white, and some were red rednose dogs.”  He said all the Henry dogs could bite hard and were very wild to work and handle.  And like the preacher man from Oklahoma he would scream like a cat in the middle of the night, get down on the floor on his knees and say they were deep game dogs, bred of the English breeding.  I set there on the couch like a red headed stranger thinking don’t cross him, don’t boss him, he’s wild in his sorrow he’s ridden and hidden his pain.  He would then get in his place and say, “they were good ones, Don.”  He was like a wild black stallion, and his wife, Flo, was as frail as a bay.  His love for the gamedogs was like a mountain so big, and for hours we set and talked on and on.  He would speak up like the bright lights of Denver of 10 thousand jewels in the sky when he talked, looking me straight in the eyes.  He said, “if only I could call back the days when it was nobody’s business where you’re going, or where you come from.”  Then, he would ell me about “Dibo,” “Demon,” Black Jack jr. and his sire, and dam.  He would say to me, “Don, in the 20’s here in Oklahoma times were hard to survive, we fought dogs and cocks to survive.  In the 30’s the men still took an Indian squaw anytime they cared for one.  Then in the days the winds came and blowed for 7 years it took two feet, to three feet of top soil from the farm land of the Irish race of people.  And in those days when the Irish race in Oklahoma could not survive in the “Grapes of Wrath” they picked up and moved to California to become the farmers of the world.In those days we had three “pits” on our place, we fought cocks and a few dogs each week for a number of years.  He would then tell me, he had been shot 6 different times by 6 different men, and never once went to the hospital, the doctor came to his house.  Once his brother-in-law shot him and they never called the doctor, as Flo dressed the hole where it went in, and the hole where it came out.  He said; “In those days we kept 7 dogs close to ready at all times, they were matched in one week’s time.”  He said I would run in the fields with my dogs, in those days, there were no fences to cross just open land.  He said; We had a mound built of sand with a chair that turned all the way around.  We kept 7 dogs staked around the chair, I had a long fishing pole with a tail tied on a line.  We would go from dog to dog for two or three with one working while the others worked the coontail.  Earl then said we never had a tread mill in those days, if we had one we wouldn’t use it.  The catmill was the best to work a dog on and I would say, “yes Earl I know, I have one in my yard,” and then he’d look me in the eyes and say, tell me the way you work ‘em, and I would start to talk telling him each and every thing we did as his eyes started to shine like saying, stay a little longer.  As I talked on he would move quick with his head high saying that’s right that’s right.  And as the stories were told over the years on his couch, we always ended in talking about “breeding,” as he would say; “The Irish dogs were also deep game dogs.”  He would tell me about the different pure breeding of the different families.  Then, the tears would come with shakes, and the cry of agony as he looked me in the eyes and said, “these damn so called friends never gave me one bit of credit for my family of dogs, those big shots Shipley and Feeley they got all the credit.  Earl always called Bill Shipley the “Big Shot.”  He sent his female Flash with a black man to be bred to Red Jerry.  He would tell his black friend just what the dog looked like to breed the female to.  He would then laugh like and angel flying too close to the ground, he would speak up and say, it was the English dogs Don, you can hear these know it alls talk about the Irish dogs and they were good ones, but the English dogs was where it was at.  Red eyed dogs as red as a ruby.  Wild to go very hot dogs that would eat up a person, and Flo would speak up and say “Lord yes,” as she pulled up her long cotton dress to her knees and pulled her knee socks down to her ankles to show her scars from dog bites.  Earl then laughed and said Flo got bit two or three times trying to part some that would break loose when I weren’t here.  I got where I told her to stay in the house and let them fight to the death.  So she don’t get bit no more.  She would speak up and say; Phyllis those Henry dogs had a big mouth and you had to beat them in the head with a piece of iron to get them to turn loose.  Earl would say, “Ya’ll she’s telling you the truth, she’d have a iron bar or hammer in her hand and if one got on her she’d beat it in the head and kill it.  Then he would say she’s a sweet little old thing ain’t she, I don’t know how I could have ever made it without her.  Flo was a slip 5 ft., 3 in. small woman of near 90 lbs.  Earl being a small man, in his prime 117 lbs. with gloves on.  He said he would have been a fighter if he had not got shot in the belly one time.  As he said Bert was the stronger fighter of us two, but I was like the sun from over the mountain with a sunlight that dances on your skin, but Bert he did me wrong and I never him.  And we would talk on about breeding.  Earl carried the famous name of “Tudor,” the famous King’s who went by the names of Henry the First, and so on, in Europe.In the 1400’s in England the way was open for the only surviving Lancastrian with strength to take and keep the throne.  Henry Tudor was a descendent of John Tudor of Gaunt.  He had spent half his life in Wales, the rest on the Continent.  Urged to intervene, he found Welsh forces eager to join him when he landed at Milford Haven, and led them on into England.  King Richard met them outside Market Bosworth, near Leicester, on 22nd of August 1485.  The first battle was the gamebred “wardogs.”  The royal army was larger but fought with less conviction.  Many nolles on whom Richard was relying had already decided to defect.  Richard himself fought bravely, but was accorded little respect for this after his death.  The crown of England found in a bush was placed on Henry Tudors head, and the corpse of the dead King was stripped naked, tossed across a horse, and carried unceremoniously to Leicester.  The last of the Plantagenets was gone.  The stage was set for the “Tudors.”  The mark of the Tudors were the dog and the dragon.Earl never told me he was from the English Tudor family, but he had the same little beadie eyes as the pictures of the Tudors of England.  He had the courage of a line of Kings that would get in your face the last days of his life that came in 1977.  Earl became a hard man to be around the last year or two of his life from the hate he had within, he kept a pistol in his pocket from sunup to sundown, and did a lot of crying the last years of his life.  He told me stories about bad men he knew who always stopped and visited him as they came through east of the Texas Panhandle in Western Oklahoma where the rocks peer out of the ground in rows as if they had been planted.  Poor land that at this time is too poor to grow weeds.  He told me about a time he spent in court as they tried him for murder.  He told me stories about life and gamedogs that can only be told in a “Book.”Earl Tudor was a man that liked all of us that kept only two kinds of dogs.  Those he liked, and those given to him by a friend.  He started breeding his family of dogs in 1908 after being around them all his boyhood life.  His first dog to match was a Henry bred dog called “Jack Swift.”  He bred him to a Henry bitch called “Black Star” and produced a dog called “Judge,” and he went to trial for 60 years proving his value of truth and understanding of breeding to be unbeatable over the years.  It was like a whiskey river that never went dry in most of Earl’s grown life.  He was the town bootlegger and his friend Jim Williams was the law.  Jim always bred his females at Earl’s house and it was Jim Williams who led Earl’s last stud dog out of his yard.  Jim and Earl lived 19 miles from south to north from one another, on the same road.  They were just another sample of two friends that had come to the point of hating each other from their many dog deals, but were friends to the end of them both.  Earl would say of Jim, “that no good old popper hanging dogpeddler” and Jim would say “I don’t know why Earl talks to bad of me.”  Jim could come and deal dogs with Earl all his life and he did.  Earl would say about his life as a bootlegger and the “law”, that he never gave as much as a cigarette to, and he was never busted in his many years.  And Jim he would tell how he would call Earl and tell him to close shop till the state men left town, each time the state men came to town to try and bust a bootlegger.  Earl knew people like Pretty Boy Floyd, Baby Face Nelson, Frank Nash who was raised just a few miles from Earls in what was then called the Bad Land of Oklahoma when survival of life was hard, but like a Oklahoma preacher Earl climbed high on his mountain and screamed like a cat, after walking from Kentucky when a young boy rode in a wagon pulled by oxen.  But like a red headed stranger that rode into red rock on a black stallion he made his mark ion the world of life and gamedogs.  And like he said you can’t hang a man for killing a woman who’s stealing your horse.  And out on the edge of life is where Earl lived in the Badlands of Oklahoma.  He told me one time he won 24 matches in 24 months, he said; “Hell there ain’t nobody that can win 24 straight fair, not even me, as he would laugh, and give me a fake right and left to the jaw.  He was like the sun from over the mountain top dancing on your skin.  And like a light house that stands alone Earl traveled down the roads of life in and around Oklahoma.  At one time he had over 100 gamedogs and 200 cocks.  He made his own cock spears from bed springs.  But the gamedogs was his love from the hate he had within of men.The game we as men play when seeking the gamest dogs bred, is in life as seeking t hat true friend, after the man deals in life where men are having a hard time to survive in land that is called “bad.”  As Earl cried out in pain from his butchered body as he lived one day at a time.  He told me so many stories with so many different dogs names, we talked for days.  He lived by the graveyard where his folks lay to their amazing grace, as he too lay there to rest.  But at the time of God’s grace we will all arise and be counted for, as I can sometime hear his voice and spirit saying “go for it Don.”  “Go for it.”  It was like take this job and shove it I’ll make it my way and he did, but I tell you for sure his last years were as hard as any I have seen.  He told me, he said Don; “If a man told me could win over my dogs I would tell him I would beat him within so much time and he did.”  He told me; “one time we were matched into the “Big Shot.”  Shipley and his friends came down with an old timer a month before he died of old age.  His name was Frumble of Arkansas.  He was a good old man, I told him after the dogs met, bet your money it don’t go 20 minutes.  And at 18 minutes the “Big Shot’s” dog fell dead in the center of the pit, and old man Frumble was the only man there that seen what I did, he shaked my hand and told me how glad he was to get to meet the “Oklahoma Kid” before he died, he just hugged my neck and left, and sad I seen what you did, I seen.  And Earl just laughed and said he was one hell of a man he was, one hell of a man.  He then stood up then he set back down.  And told me each time we visited many dog stories of too many different dog names to tell about at this time.  Earl bred the Henry dogs as pure as he could an crossed it with the Feeley and Shipley families from his understanding of what he had seen in the different matches of his life.  “Dibo” was a dog bred of 41 years of Earl’s life.  In the pedigree of Dibo for 8 generations the three men whose names show up the most, was Earl Tudor of Oklahoma 39 times, Con Feeley of Illinois, 36 times, Bill Shipley of Texas, 24 times.  Compared to those three men the others in the pedigree of Dibo were gamedog feeders.  Those three men were at the Core of the game where only the truth was.  The female Gordons “Red Lady” was an American bred female where Tudors name showed up 38 times in her pedigree.  When Earl bred Dibo to Red Lady his name showed in their offsprings Jeff, Spike, & Buck 77 times.  In the pedigree of Black Widow, Earl Tudors name shows 69 times.  When he bred Spike to Black Widow his name showed in the pedigree of Baby 146 times.  He thenbred Spikes brother Jeff to Baby, and produced “Nigger” his last and purest family bred stud dog.  His name appeared in Nigger’s pedigree 223 times.  He then bred Nigger to his sister and produced one lone female called “Spookie,” and his name appeared in her pedigree 446 times.  Those two American Gamedogs were the purest bred of Earl Tudors understanding of the game he had played near 67 years of his life.  And at this time after he is dead and gone there is still some of his so called friends trying to take his credit of breeding.A Breeder of American Gamedogs

Really good read there thanks for sharing

Thank you to all for all the input on bulldogs past and blood , I've learned a lot and it has made my mind up on what I want to do with my Cd side of the pack ,

Couple a things about Dibo, he was a pet for over 3 years before he was looked at. Followed around the yard and didn't bother the chaindogs. He also had a double hocked backend that could have been a weakness if anything could have pushed him hard enough to tire him out. But he was a beast. And today if you see double hocked APBT's they nearly all go way back to Dibo blood.

All this talk of the old rednose blood or the hemphill, Wilder blood etc, reminds me of an interesting story I heard from at least 3 different oldtimer friends.  TexHogDogger will get a kick out of this.  One of the main breeders of the old rednose blood (back in the day) was Bob Wallace from Little Rock Arkansas.  The story goes was there was a fellow from Carolina that had bought dogs from Wallace over the years.  He supposedly lived down the road from Howard Teal.  He had to get rid of his dogs immediately for some reason, and Teal ended up with the dogs.  All of a sudden, Bass Tramp Red Boy appeared on the seen.  If you look at the pedigree of Redboy, he is out of Teal's Jeff and McCleod's Suzie Q Gal.  Jeff is out of Sarge, etc. etc.  When you actually look at the "alledged" pedigree of Redboy, he is heavy Colby Dime breeding.  Most of the Colby dogs from that period were White w black patches or spots.  If you look at the dogs in the old magazines that were out of the Teal stuff, they were black and white too.  (Dog's like Coleman's Bobo and Coleman's Turkey, etc (all bred real close to the same as Redboy, but black and white)?  Anyone who is familiar with bulldogs (or dogs in general) will know that it would be extremely odd for black and white dogs to be producing Red dogs with gold eyes and red toenails, etc.  Anyway, I have had at least 3 different oldtimers tell me that Redboy blood was actually old Wallace, Hemphill, Wilder blood, and that is where the "stupid game" tendancies of the Redboy line comes from.  Any oldtimer from the 50's, 60's era will tell you that Wallace was a gameness fanatic and would sacrifice most any other trait to preserve gameness.  Now I must add, that all three of these men knew Bob Wallace very well and one of them actually was a protege of Bob Wallace and traveled to all the shows with Bob and spent many years very close to Bob.  And to clarify something, I'm not knocking Redboy blood or the old Rednose dogs either one.  I owned as many Redboy dogs as anybody and some were good and some were not.  I probably had 20 or more dogs off Hunter Red, and we also had Kittens Ch. Britches when he died, and Haymaker is buried in my backyard.  I just thought it was always a neat story, whether its true or not.  Like Texhogdogger said, some people get real over enthused about a set of papers.  When the reality of it is that their probably isn't a ADBA pedigree anywhere that is 100% accurate if you take it back far enough.  My dog partner for 20 years (who knew personally all those guys Wallace, Hemphill, Tudor, Carver, Corvino, etc) told me the first time he saw the Redboy dogs being campaigned in the late 70's he said, "those Redboy dogs look identical to those dogs Wallace bred for 30 years." 

Like I said, I don't know if the story is true, but its just an interesting story.  It would be comical to see the look on the pedigree warriors' faces if it were true. 

signed,

Just a Story       
 

that was an excellent read...

Ol Redboy the street dog, LOL

Do y'all happen to have any pics of these old dogs? Or maybe offspring from some of them? I ve enjoyed the read

redriverslim

You know what friend ,  Am inclined to believe that for sure for sure.  Like you said Black and White dogs just dont all the sudden turn Red Red Noses and Golden Eyes and produce long long long lines of noting but Red Red Noses !

This is what everybody fails to realize when you are a true dogman breeder of dogs you learn to trust your eyes and what they are telling you as years of expeirnce has taught you things and you do not believe all this other BS!  Anybody can be a breeder but it takes a real dogman to be a real breeder of great dogs .

redriverslim ,  I could say some things on here that would turn the paper world upside down and lots of people also but out of respect and not wanting to start a war it is best kept to myself and friends that know til the right time has come .

Alot of Carver dogs had a lot of ole Ed Chrenshaw dogs in them  he bred to lots and lots of them as well as others, I will say that much.  There is a ton of other things and other people but its just best left unsaid on the www !

Lacy man if you'll go to the other bulldog post , there is a few peds on there , you can punch on any dog on that ped and it will show you the parents and a pic of that so called dog.

Just like the Honeybunch story. Many say she was off Ironhead and not Bullyson. Bill Pitre (RIP) swore Bullyson was nowhere near Carvers when the breeding was made. Irish Jerry said he didn't give a dang either way. If she was off a Spanish Pointer he'd like a dozen of em'

ahhahahaahah lol damn man ahhaahahhaahahahahha   I have no ideal !

Hey Joel did you ever hear about the story on Pitre what he done ,  when Bullyson career was over ?

LOL

alot of the shows we went to in the 70,8o,90s they were 500 to 2500 typicaly put saw several for 5 grand and a few for 20,ooo or more thats been lots of years ago. my grandfather who has passed on wouldnt show one for less than 2000. seen some dogs do some things that i thought was physicaly impossible the heart that a true game pit has is hard to believe. this is were a few of these breaders made there names with there dogs by taking severe punishment and giving it back and outlasting the other dog by just true gameness and condition.

The Mr Crenshaw i mentioned was Mr James Crenshaw. I believe he was from Ga.  I was curious of his place in bulldog history.

I bet you could take a few of these dogs we're talking about and show against these gang bangers and take all their money. The ones I saw back in school werent even game dogs just mid size dogs with massive heads and little to no conditioning.

I've heard that Honeybunch story too.  Here's another one that will CRUSH THE DREAMS of of the pedigree warriors.  You know how some guys are married to a bloodline.  Example: Some don't like anything but Jeep dogs and think that Jeep is THE bloodline.  Jeep is actually double bred CUR.  Jeep's sire was Finley's BO (who quit against Vindicator).  Jeep's mother Honeybunch was out of Bullyson (who quit against Benny Bob).  So Jeep was actually the product of breeding a daughter of a cur . . . back to a cur.  Now these would be extreme examples because Bo and Honeybunch and Bullyson were all good producers, but technically if you get right down to it, both Bo and Bullyson were curs (depending on who you ask).  Not saying they were rank, but?  And let me make the point that I've seen and owned some awsome heavy Bullyson dogs, and Jeep himself went 3:40 min against Homer.  So the moral of the story is . . . NO DOG CAN READ IT'S PAPERS.  A smart dog man once told me, "Breed the best bitch on the yard to the best male on the yard, then go in the house and look at the papers and find out what you just did.  

        

James Crenshaw was from East Ellijay, GA.  He was the owner of Honeybunch (from irish Jerry), Ch. Jeep, Ch. Charlie (Jeep's brother), and later in the 90's, Crenshaws Ch. Gator.  He died several years back.  Look around and maybe you can find his book.  He wrote a book I beleive it was called MY LIFE AND TIMES W/ AMERICAN PITBULL TERRIER if you are interested.     

I think you he did write a book, didnt he have a black dog that was decent? By the way, this is a fantastic thread. Thanks to all who have posted so much bulldog history. Wow! You can soak this up like a sponge

Yeah I agree there. Peds are good for reference, and if you know your lines of dogs, they'll give you an idea of what the dog should be in theory, as certain lines of dogs have certain known traits, but if you really believe that every dog of that golden era is really bred the way it shows on good ol' Peds Online...you'd be sadly mistaken, lol. I enjoy all the stories about the truths behind these dogs. Hell, back in the day when bulldoggin' was legal, if I had a devastator that was out there winnin, I darn sure wouldn't be tellin everyone how the dog was bred. Kinda like givin away a good treasured recipe to just everyone, lol. Certain lines are known to cross well with eachother, that's been proven. Pre 1976 of course, lol. Or in Mexico. ;-p

I like to reference the peds for reasons stated above, as in doing so, I have been able to create a consistancy in my stock with traits that I like....but I also would NOT hesitate to breed honest bulldog x honest bulldog regardless of how they're bred if I think they'd produce well. I've done it before and certainly was nor disappointed.

I know some of the stories out there can be disputed, but here's some random links to some decent reads for those interested in some history.

http://www.sporting-dog.com/select-pages/jeepredboy.html

http://www.sporting-dog.com/select-pages/chinamanstory.html

http://www.sporting-dog.com/select-pages/indianbolio.html

http://www.sporting-dog.com/select-pages/eli.html

Decent Gallery of Photos:

http://www.gamedog.info/photos/

Plenty more but it'll take me some time to gather 'em.

Am a firm believer that when people start looking a how a dog is bred before they want to breed it is a big mistake !   What you should be doing is looking at the dogs and what they are and then later on worry about how it is bred.  Now when you get ready to make your family this way you start out with a clean gene pool of great dogs and are now combing all these great gene pools of proven dogs  instead of combing just a gene pool of unproven great bred dogs .  All this 25 times this and 60 times this really means noting if the dogs ain't worth their salt and even if they are worth their salt being this heavy bred you had better know how to get the good out of them when you do breed them .

I think a lot of lines of dogs go stale just because of this very reason !  The thing about it is this .  Once a man goes to far there is no  sure fire way to fix it .  Once it goes bad its just bad because you have stacked and pack so much of this one great great bred dogs offspring and  now chitty gene pool of unproven dogs in to these future dogs .  So in other words yes the paper now looks fantastic but reality  the gene pool is now a sewer littered with unproven great bred dogs .  Its these gene pools that make dogs not the papers !

To tightly great bred on unproven dogs is a recipe for disaster really its no different than breeding dogs that you don't even no how are bred  .

When you sit here and you break all of this stuff down this is what it amount to in having great dogs.

Lets look at this with eyes wide open !
Earl Tudor, Colby, Don Mayfeild, Carver, Boudreax, Hall, Feely, Trahan, Maloney, Clouse, Hemphill, Wilder, Wallace, Stinson, Fonteno, Kinard, Ed Chrenshaw, J Crenshaw,  The ole White Bloodlines these are all men that are down in bulldog history the great great great breeders of all time and of course I have left many out.

Now you name me one thing all these old old men had in common !

THEY ALL RAISED AND BRED THEIR ON DOGS BUT AND NOW I SAY BUT THE KEY IS THEY USED THEIR ON DOGS !  WHEN THEY WERE IN THEIR PRIMES THEY USED THEIR ON DOGS THEY DID NOT BUY DOGS THEY DID NOT SELL DOGS THEY USED WHAT THEY BRED !

Now then.  Not all but some when did their dogs hit there decline so to speak ???????

Once their dogging careers were over and they did what ?????????????

They started to selling dogs and the dogs went commerical !  Now not all these men did this but the ones that did their great dogs declined and they declined as breeders because then it became about the almighty dollar!

Back in their prime when they were dogging do you think for one min they went out in the back yard and said hell Old Cowboy Boots here is off of So & So 45 times and Old Blondie Boots here is off of old So & So 66 times am going to make this breeding because I want the tightest bred So & So dogs in the world !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Do you think they done this ?

You have done lost your Got Damn mind if you think they did !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hell no they went out there and they pulled the very best baddest male they owned off the chain and they went and they pulled the baddest of the bad females they owned both top performace dogs and guess what folks

they laid the pipe !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It was no 35 times this and 45 times this back in the days of the real doggers and breeders it was all about breeding to the dog and the female that was getting it done and getting it done right !

Amokabs, James Crenshaw was a good friend and mentor for me. I run Bolio/Tonka stuff up until James gave me a pup off Blackjack. I now have stuff down from this gyp and am out of the other blood. His place in bulldog history is pretty secure. He was an exceptional conditioner. He would quit his job to condition his dog and find another when he was done. Yes he was from E. Elijay, sold his place to a Dallas Cowboy who was the worlds worst pot dealer. He gave all the credit to Colby for the good dogs he had. Said they all went back to Colby stuff.

I will give you a prime example of this .  Mayfeilds Nigger one of the hardest bred Tudor dogs there was .  This is how a line goes stale in any kind of performace dogs hunting dogs bulldogs what ever in a hurry and I mean in a hurry .  This story was told to me by a old man and I do mean a good one yall .  He went to a mans house I know his name but will not put it on here that had all these Mayfield dogs like 30 35 dogs on the yard he said it was the pretty yard of dogs he had ever seen in his life .  Jet black dogs with yellow and red eyes just beautiful clones of Maysfeild Nigger and those black dogs .  Said he had never seen a prettier yard of dogs big black big boned well built just tanks  .  Well this guy bragged about how these dogs were bred Mayfeild this Mayfeild that showing papers and how they were bred . So when it was all over and said and done not one not one of those dogs made the grade not a single solitary one of those dogs  !  The old man said he could not believe his eyes.  Everyone of them were great bred dogs bred off of a few great bred dogs unproven untested dogs and in the end not a single dog was worth a red cent !

This is how pretty papers works in the end when its all on the line if the dog cant make his papers then you can just go to the toliet bowl and flushem down the drain !

I agree with you on what you have said Texas hog dogs , but in defense of my self and Jorge , I bought the dog as a cd , was told how great the owner thought he was , but I wanted him to catch hogs , over time I've learnt his way and he has learnt mine , we have bonded and I have realized how special he is , until the comment a about old family reds being a washed up breed or something to that effect in a post a few months back I knew nothing about the blood in this dog , with that said who knows if the papers are correct , but from my research and looking Pics he sure fits the picture    Who knows.  But I cherished  Jorge before I knew what he was blood wise and now with research I'm going to keep what I like , I feel like I've tried to learn as much as I could , and ask as many questions as possible in my decision , what has been kept in the closet is still there and I can't help that , you people are great , thanks for all the help , story's ect.

Hand Painted Potrait of the old bulldogs back in the late 1700's.  This was sent to me by a ole family breeder from Europe many years ago .  We were all looking for the link to the Blu Phal fighting dogs .  I had a pup born in one of my liters that was dang near identical in colors and build to some of them we all didn't know what we were looking at for a long time till this man figured.  The pup was very heavy line bred for  years on end and was a throw back to those dogs as well as we could all figure out.

 (http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q307/TexasHogDogs/bluepaul001.jpg) (http://s139.photobucket.com/user/TexasHogDogs/media/bluepaul001.jpg.html)

One of my old Stud dogs and a good one .
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i412/mrstexashogdogs/ripper.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/mrstexashogdogs/media/ripper.jpg.html)

Great thread!

Some neat stuff there TExas hog dogs , and that is one nice looking dog , wow

Well hot damn that's that Ripper dog off ol' Thunder huh!? NICE!

Thats him.  Sure was a good one .

I got a ton of damn pic but boy it is a pain in the butt to get them on here got to take the phone cam and take a pic of the original and then send to photobucket then send to the board .  Pain pain pain.

I'd love to see 'em too. Yeah I know, that's quite a process, lol

Bob, don't believe for a minute that you need a full on game bred dog to have a good catch dog. As long as the man holding the lead is happy don't worry about the rest of the world. Brains is more important in a catch dog than dead game.

You are exactly correct about the brains and that is my number one goal , all the traits I like Iike about Jorge , were to find such a animal , it just happens that he is what people call a game bred pit , but to me he's my pride and joy and my friend , I want a reg. female of the same blood line to try to achieve something as great or better as Jorge , I have a 50 dollar pit also , super dog all heart but does not hold a candle to Jorge  , I have very high hopes on my goals and there's not going to be no what ifs in this case  , I have found one and in the next few weeks will have purchased a reg  linebred female with the same blood to complament Jorge and achieve my goals , I'm so pumped , thanks everyone for all the knowledge , story's and input 

You'll definately have some real smart ones from that combo....super intelligent I bet!

Alot of hoghunters are unfamiliar with the unique qualities of "game bred" bulldogs and how those specific traits translate into what makes a good catchdog.  What a gamedog man would consider to be a well bred bulldog, in many instances DO NOT make good catchdogs.  There has been much talk on this thread about game bloodlines.  I owned gamedogs for 20 years (but haven't owned one in several years and don't have any use for one).   I have also been a hoghunter for several years.  I can tell you from experience that most super well bred gamedogs (and I'm talking about the ones out of the sure-nuff bad SOB's) DO NOT make good catchdogs in most cases.  Now let me emphasize "MOST CASES".  There are exceptions to the rule.

However, generally speaking . . a true gamedog would be too "fight crazy" to make a good catchdog.  They have been bred to fight . . . PERIOD.  They don't socialize with other dogs very well at all.  Some of them can be groomed from a very young age, and with a whole lot of socializing and a whole lot of luck, can turn out to be good catchdogs.  But most likley what you get is a dog that will catch a hog, and then when the hog is dead, he might let go and jump on the first baydog he sees because he's turned on and just wants to put his mouth on something.  Also, I've seen more times than not, a real game bred dog will want to "fight" a hog instead of hold a hog.  They have a tendancy to let go of one hold to get what they instinctively feel is a better hold (or better spot).  For instance, I've seen them let go of an ear, and shoot back to the stifle (that's the back ham).  Or I've seen them let go of an ear and go for a leg hold and SHAKE instead of hold.  Then you have to worry about can they get along with the baydogs on the back of a 4 wheeler?  If a baydog growls at them, most times its on.  Or what happens when the hog breaks the bay and runs and you've already turned the catchdog loose.  I've seen gamedogs run straight to the first dog they see and fight, because they couldn't see the hog.  When you break a gamedog off a hog, whether its a stuck hog or a tied hog, now you've got this crazy bulldog that's wanting to fight anything that moves and he's lunging at every baydog that gets close because gamedogs get "wound up" and don't know when to turn it on and turn it off.  In my opinion . . A true gamedog is more of a PROBLEM than a good catchdog.

What qualities make up a good catchdog?  It's real simple.  They first need to catch and hold on the ear and stay caught and have no quit.  But more important to me, they need to get along with the rest of the pack and not cause problems, and they need to have some brains too.  Most gamedogs are not real heavy on the brains department.  They have only two speeds and thats wide open or on the chain.  

Now I have seen some real gamebred dogs that made good catchdogs.  I contend that they are the exception . . Not the rule.  I would say this, if I am looking for a catchdog, I'm not seeking out a well bred gamedog as my first choice.  If the dog happens to be a gamebred dog, then that's OK.  Its just not what I would be looking for.  The old "watered down" bloodlines that have been discussed on this thread are actually better catchdogs in most cases.  I saw a thread a while back where someone posted a picture of GR CH MACHOBUCK and people were replying saying . . "thats what I want, a dog like that".  Well actually, if you're hunting hogs you probably DONT want that.  You may thing you do, but you're probably gonna have problems.  The best catchdogs I've seen were a blend of just scatter bred (non-game) bulldogs with a splash of game blood thrown in the mix.  It seems when they are bred like this, they still have some brains and can be socialized, but that little shot of gameblood gives them that extra "KICK" with added heart and NO QUIT attitude.  Also, most true game blooded dogs are small (in hog hunter terms).  A 55 lb gamedog would be at the very top end of the spectrum and would be difficult to even find a match for.  Most gamedogs will weigh somewhere from the mid 30's to the mid 40's.  To me, a good 55 to 65 lb dog that's athletic is perfect for hogs.  This size dog can handle any hog in the woods, cause he has the body mass to handle the big ones.  Its just a personal preference, but I don't want a 40 lb catchdog.  A friend of mine had a 34 lb gamebred bitch.  She was awsome to see catch a hog, but a big hog could run and spin with her hanging on like an earring.  She would eventually get the hog stopped, but to me it just seemed like she was overmatched all the time due to her small size.

I would say if you have a bulldog that catches good and it gets along with the other dogs, then that is what makes a good catchdog.  Breeding a bunch of fighting blood into it just so you can have some famous bulldogs in the pedigree aint gonna make it catch hogs better.  Most any bulldog that will play tug-o-war with a towell or work a spring pole or hide, can be taught to catch hogs with a little encouragement.  I have a 14 week old puppy right now that's catching litte baby pigs and having a blast.  She will make a good catchdog, and she has NO GAME BLOOD so she'll most likley get along with everything else.  It just seems to me, that when you're staring out with something that has been bred to fight, you're staring out in the hole, cause now you've got a whole other problem you've got to worry about surfacing down the road.  Remember this . . if a dog has been bred to fight and that's his first instinct, its harder to break him from wanting to fight than you may think it is.  On the other hand, its pretty easy to get any old scatter bred bulldog to catch a hog.

Just an opinion                            

Good post ...agree with a lot you said there..
First time I put my little "game" pit in pen she didn't do anything so we stuck her in trailer where she had to fight.
Put my buddies patterdale in there to show her what to do and get her excited cut her loose and she latched onto the patterdale lol. Her temperament is excellent. Don't know if I got lucky or what but she beats carrying a 80lb bulldog around.

redriverslim...you made some excellent points...only thing now is that the further we breed away from the fighting dogs the harder it is to get a great catch dog...the last 2 pups I raised were beautiful well musled good looking dogs of about 70 pounds and I culled both...back in the 1980's and 1990's most back yard bulldogs made catch dogs so it seemed to me...my personal theory is that more of those were closer bred to the game dogs...

Slim, you are very correct on this "game dog catch dog" thang. I have been bringing game bred dogs down for several years and they catch hogs but not on the ear and it's a pain. I have had very little dog trouble with them but I have a pretty good handle that way. That being said I'm getting a pup from catchdog lines. Both the males I have brought down are from Blackjack/Gator blood and go over 50# chainwt.

I think if you can get the right combination of game dog blood in a dog it would work really well .  You just have to breed some of the heat out of those real game dogs to do it .  If you can find that click with another ole laid back bulldog you might just hit the jack pot .

Totally agree.  Hardcore Hogand Dogs (the video series)  has a white dog that is a catching machine on the videos.  I think his name is Patch maybe?  anyway, that dog is either off BlackJack or down from that stuff.  True gamebred dog, doing it and getting along with other dogs, so there is one instance that kinda blows my theory out of the water.  LOL   

^ You are correct.

We have a couple here that would blow your theory out the water too :)

I got a couple coming pups from old old bloodlines this year and am sure gonna try and work with it and make some really really nice catch dogs .  I had a little dog here 7 - 8 years ago what was almost straight Shory bred called him Cannon Ball he was 45 lbs of hog catching machine .  He was raised from a pup with all my dogs got his butt kicked a few times by me when he was young for acting up and I never let it get started are give him the chance and he was great.     

x2...I had one red red nose about 20 years ago that was one heck of a catch dog...he was raised with my dogs but he and the lead strike dog never saw eye to eye...

he was well socialized and broke off cows through lots of exposure...but one day a buddy of mine was trying out a pack of dogs and I had a good handle on my catch dog...I turned him out to empty out before I loaded him on the wheeler...those dogs bayed a cow and he flew down there and caught that cow...no amount of shock therapy could break him off of cows after that...

I've soaked up everything that's been said , I guess I have a exception to the rule also , and like I said I had no idea he was bred the way he was , it has given me a new respect for him for sure , I can understand a gamey pit , I have had that problem once , he just went stupid. I might say , I'm very aware of what might happen when I linebreed Jorge back and I appreciate all the input because I'm doing my best to learn as much as I can , for me this has been months or reading and surfing , I've sold a top notch bay dog to purchase a female pit of the same blood , I will let everyone know of the progress we make , the trips and falls ect. I will be straight up and tell the truth , if it goes bad for me I will let you guys know and listen to I told you so , I'm trying to preserve what I have in Jorge , the game blood is just on paper and is just a bonus , I will bond with my new dog like no other , it will walk around my yard with no problems , it will not be dog or people  aggressive and will hit and hold a hog like no other  in Jesus name , we are standing on this and it will come to pass , but like I said I will be honest in letting y'all know the ride , it's gonna take a bit , but anything worth having never comes easy or without work , you guys are awesome

Who was Cannonball's Sire?

A dog named Screw that I owned he was a double bred grandson of Ch Shory .

I had the "Shortyson" dog out of Mississippi Hot's Rock Steady.

Yall might enjoy looking at old dogs of the past and you better believe some great great dogs .  Bulldog History history history !


My ole George dog off of Hootens Pistol x Miss Bolaro
(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q307/TexasHogDogs/temporary_zpsaf8ee702.jpg) (http://s139.photobucket.com/user/TexasHogDogs/media/temporary_zpsaf8ee702.jpg.html)

My ole Ripper dogs liter brother .
(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q307/TexasHogDogs/temporary_zps6faf12d9.jpg) (http://s139.photobucket.com/user/TexasHogDogs/media/temporary_zps6faf12d9.jpg.html)

Ole bitch of mine off of Holts Jermiah who was off of Bullyson.
(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q307/TexasHogDogs/temporary_zps41e99da9.jpg) (http://s139.photobucket.com/user/TexasHogDogs/media/temporary_zps41e99da9.jpg.html)

Ch Bandit off my old Buster dog who was straight Midnite Cowboy - Bullyson  His mother was my Sambella bitch who was off of Cates Cujo x Rosebud who was a liter sister to Black Widow
(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q307/TexasHogDogs/temporary_zpsba018a60.jpg) (http://s139.photobucket.com/user/TexasHogDogs/media/temporary_zpsba018a60.jpg.html)

My Ripper dog off of Thunder Match x Scarlet ------ Thunder was off of Cujo and Scarlet was off of Lionhead x Ada .......Ripper being bred to the last living daughter of the Great Hammonds Pig .
(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q307/TexasHogDogs/temporary_zpsba018a60.jpg) (http://s139.photobucket.com/user/TexasHogDogs/media/temporary_zpsba018a60.jpg.html)

The Holts Jermiah bitch of mine .
(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q307/TexasHogDogs/temporary_zpsb8bd60e6.jpg) (http://s139.photobucket.com/user/TexasHogDogs/media/temporary_zpsb8bd60e6.jpg.html)

My old Jag dog off of Berrys Coley who was pure Ch Alligator bred .
(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q307/TexasHogDogs/temporary_zps4dd9b0b4.jpg) (http://s139.photobucket.com/user/TexasHogDogs/media/temporary_zps4dd9b0b4.jpg.html)

My old Peevo dog off of Holidays Desperado "Boomrang" bred  x a direct daughter of Lonzo's Vindicator who was Gr Ch Zebo liter brother .
(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q307/TexasHogDogs/temporary_zps64d7a898.jpg) (http://s139.photobucket.com/user/TexasHogDogs/media/temporary_zps64d7a898.jpg.html)

My old Jody bitch off of Mosleys Smeller straight Woods Snooty  x a pure Carvers Stompanto bitch .
(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q307/TexasHogDogs/temporary_zps5ff57cf4.jpg) (http://s139.photobucket.com/user/TexasHogDogs/media/temporary_zps5ff57cf4.jpg.html)

A dog named Kaizer a old Bullyson type bred dog.
(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q307/TexasHogDogs/temporary_zpsb00e7e83.jpg) (http://s139.photobucket.com/user/TexasHogDogs/media/temporary_zpsb00e7e83.jpg.html)

My old Girlfriend bitch she was straight Boomrang Pistol Pete bred and a hell of a dog .
(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q307/TexasHogDogs/temporary_zpsb40f56e7.jpg) (http://s139.photobucket.com/user/TexasHogDogs/media/temporary_zpsb40f56e7.jpg.html)

My old Lazy bitch she was straight Bullyson on the top and straight off of a daughter of Andersons Red Barron . A great ole gyp dog of mine.
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The man my old Rooster dog .  He was three times off of Gr Ch Hudo who was off of Carvers NightTrain a straight  Eli jr/ Bullyson bred and bred to a Ray Long gyp I think cant remember have to look the Tuffy bitch .
Great great dog ole Rooster.

(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q307/TexasHogDogs/temporary_zps8f989e8b.jpg) (http://s139.photobucket.com/user/TexasHogDogs/media/temporary_zps8f989e8b.jpg.html)

 Bugar a straight Ch Shory bred dog .

(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q307/TexasHogDogs/temporary_zps9e958de6.jpg) (http://s139.photobucket.com/user/TexasHogDogs/media/temporary_zps9e958de6.jpg.html)

The best dog to ever look threw a collar my old Breuax dog . Off of Nigger Toby x my old Gr Ch Hannah gyp .
(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q307/TexasHogDogs/temporary_zpscf4d1caa.jpg) (http://s139.photobucket.com/user/TexasHogDogs/media/temporary_zpscf4d1caa.jpg.html)

and we could go on for days on end here .

THD's thanks for posting great pics!

man...I like that Breaux dog...about a quarter of that over a gritty hard hunting mtn cur...  :o :)

them other dogs look good too...

The one up there first was was ch bandit .

This is my Ripper dog being bred to the last living daughter of the great Hammonds Pig .
(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q307/TexasHogDogs/temporary_zps713d56d6.jpg) (http://s139.photobucket.com/user/TexasHogDogs/media/temporary_zps713d56d6.jpg.html)

My old Lexus , a daughter of Cujo and a great old gyp .
(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q307/TexasHogDogs/temporary_zps6db2e8f1.jpg) (http://s139.photobucket.com/user/TexasHogDogs/media/temporary_zps6db2e8f1.jpg.html)

Ole Pig a straight Ch Shorty bred dog of mine .
(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q307/TexasHogDogs/temporary_zps2cedee4b.jpg) (http://s139.photobucket.com/user/TexasHogDogs/media/temporary_zps2cedee4b.jpg.html)

Back in the 70's a pure Ch Stomper bred pup .
(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q307/TexasHogDogs/temporary_zpsffdb7768.jpg) (http://s139.photobucket.com/user/TexasHogDogs/media/temporary_zpsffdb7768.jpg.html)

The old Jermiah bitch
(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q307/TexasHogDogs/temporary_zpsf7166e77.jpg) (http://s139.photobucket.com/user/TexasHogDogs/media/temporary_zpsf7166e77.jpg.html)

My old Crystal bitch who was the last living daughter of Houses Gr Ch Joker and she was the mother to my old Bruiser dog great great old gyp.  This is way back there now long time ago .
(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q307/TexasHogDogs/temporary_zps9c26a300.jpg) (http://s139.photobucket.com/user/TexasHogDogs/media/temporary_zps9c26a300.jpg.html)

Black one of my old pure Bullyson bitches way back she was as black as midnight gums everything great great old gyp .

(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q307/TexasHogDogs/temporary_zps08d1ff2a.jpg) (http://s139.photobucket.com/user/TexasHogDogs/media/temporary_zps08d1ff2a.jpg.html)

THD: I enjoyed each and EVERY one of them pics!!!!!! Thanks for takin the time to share all of them! BOY that Rooster dog of yours....we got a male here that is damn near a TWIN to that dog!!! Long bodied and all.....
Name is "Brick"

(http://i1028.photobucket.com/albums/y349/fldogwoman/Yard021_zps830e4b2f.jpg)

(http://i1028.photobucket.com/albums/y349/fldogwoman/Yard015_zpsa175f09d.jpg)

Good looking little dog for sure I like them red dogs with black mask.  Nice.

I got a bunch of old time pics put up I went up to Okla one time and got a bunch of pics of some old Earl Tudor dogs off a mans yard  LOL that is well well known  that had all them dogs with Mr Tudor .  I will have to dig them up sometimes aint had them out in 25 yrs .

He was the very very best dog I have ever bred myself Rueben in my life time of those dogs .  Great dont even begin to describe that dog !  A freak of Nature no other words decribe it .

Here's you some History !

This is for my buddy Gottocatchem !

Here's the man B.H. way way back in the day we were breeding Maloney's Ch Bert to Hall's Miss Boobs !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q307/TexasHogDogs/temporary_zpsd3a05967.jpg) (http://s139.photobucket.com/user/TexasHogDogs/media/temporary_zpsd3a05967.jpg.html)

i love that girlfriend gyp alot. wish i owned one that looked just like her.

out of curiousity, is the rooster dog roman nosed like a bull terrier?
or is it just swelling, or camera angle?
he appears to be more roman nosed than most bulldogs in the pic.

nice bulldogs.

Yeah just the way the pic was taken .   Thats a old old pic .

Dang Jimmy!!! You were serious about bulldogs !!!  ;D I agree with Reuben, that Breaux dog looks awesome !!!

I found a badass pic some of you will enjoy but I can't post pics if I can txt it to somebody

405334756seven

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I547 using Tapatalk 2

posting the pic for fellow hog hunter , great pic   thank you sir
(http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z413/bobscoggins/oldpicofthegreatbulldogmenofthepast.png) (http://s1188.photobucket.com/user/bobscoggins/media/oldpicofthegreatbulldogmenofthepast.png.html)

Texashogdogs,
  Did you ever know a man named Buddy Knight from the Covington, La. area? Back in the day he was probably one of the most serious breeders of gamedogs in our area. He used to make some of the finest treadmills around.

That's a great pic. Got a few good'uns like that in some of my old books.....

I don't guess I did.  I may have met him and just don't remember it there were so many people back then man that was the times.

Thanks & good pictures.
  We bought a Hinziel  sp.? bred gyp off of him that could not have pups. She was the hardest biting dog I have seen. Like you said alot of the game bred dogs did not make good catchdogs. She caught on the jowl & in about 2 shakes, she had a fist size chunk of meat that would come off & she would have to regrip. Needless to say she did not make a good catchdog but she was a wirey 45# gyp that was solid muscle.

Wow, I must say I really love this thread. So much knowledge and great stories. I've been doing some research and have really come to love the look of a hard working conditioned bull dog.

You might like this dog here then Dodgegirl.  Bred second to none .  In perfect shape been in a 45 day condition program by B.H. owned by me.

Great great dog .
 (http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q307/TexasHogDogs/temporary_zps6faf12d9.jpg) (http://s139.photobucket.com/user/TexasHogDogs/media/temporary_zps6faf12d9.jpg.html)

that is a great looking Red dog TexasHogs

Wow I love the look of that dog! I might need to look into getting my hands on one when I have room for another dog. A good friend of my pops breeds them.

Can you tell me more about the 45 day condition program?

Its way to much and to complicated to even try to put on here.  I will say this to tell you how good of shape those dogs were in .  A fourty foot jenny and at the end of the 45 day program the dog was running at a full trot just before a lope for 8-10 hrs at the end of the program with his mouth closed  breathing threw his nose loving every min of it and  of course it did not start out like that.  Lots of rubs , lots of hand walking at first as well as a lot of other things and a gradually building up to that kind of time.  Hard to imagine isn't it .

In order to peak condition a canine you have to think like a canine.  Just like a coyote wonder how many miles a nite he travles in a fast trot searcing for food ,  you might be surprised .

Swamphunter , that dog was a heavy, heavy straight line bred dog with a pure 1/4 out cross of a super performace dog  that was heavy bred in his own family with a bit of a cross in him also.  The genes have got to have room to breath most the time to produce a super dog .  It can be done with pure heavy line and some inbreeding but it is not going to happen much once the gene pool is so concentrated it works against itself that's a fact .

If  you will look back on pit bull history are any canine history and study the breedings of the old old timers you will see that most familys start from super outcrosses in other words familys are started from super dogs be bred to super dogs mostly of no kin for years on end then a man takes those crosses and combines them into a family of its on.  This is what carrys a great  family of dogs for years on end until the gene pools becomes so concentrated it cannot help itself any more because of kennel blindness for one ,  I have seen it many times over ,   so were do you go for help that's right you go to a super out cross .  That is how the family of dogs started in the first place.  To each his own tho know what I mean. 

One FINE fine bulldog there.....

*sigh*

I was born one decade too late, I swear.

Me an Steve were just saying the same thing a day or 2 ago

X3 cept I was about 3 decades to late

When you saw dogs , or lines, being bred too tight, what would you see?  Physical issues or more disposition, drive, athleticism type issues, or some combination? And when you got to the point where u a tually saw a decline, would u breed the generation that was exhibiting the negative traits to an outstanding outcross, or would u take it's parents and go to the outcross? This is a fascinating thread. The old game dog breeders knew what they were doing and so much of their work and breeding philosophy and science is being lost. Genetics is interesting but the "backyard science" used successfully by these pioneering breeders was proven at the highest levels.

Lots of trial and error went into breeding the dogs they did until they got it lined out. Just like everyone else they had pairings that didn't work but nobody knew because they were dealt with at home.

Well I want people to understand some thing right now so lets get this out in the open.  I don't want to come on here and people think that am a know it all and that the only way is my way of doing things .  That is the furtherest from the truth as you can get .  A man is a man and only he can figure out how he wants to breed dogs and I in no way am trying to tell someone their way is the wrong way are that my way is the right way.  If some of you got that impression then you took it the wrong way.  You breed dogs the way you see fit . When I say something on here it is because either I seen it , I done it, I lived it are am damn close friends with people that have done it, seen it and also lived it  .  I talk every week with men and yeah some famous men that have bred dogs for 40 45 50 years just because I am not active in the bulldog game and they are not active in the bulldog game any more that does not make us any less friends and some very close friends that I would die for nor does it mean they do not still have dogs are do not breed dogs any more it just means this time and day things have changed and us as dog men have changed with the times.  Again I do not want to give anybody the wrong impression and for you are anyone on here to think my way is the only way because it is not and that's a fact all I can do is just tell you how we done it and you can either use it are you can just let it go but do not get offended by it because it is not meant that way you are your on men and women.

One other thing I need to clear up .  I do not have what I call a super dog on my yard as of right now .  I have some damn good dogs that suit me and they find hogs on a consistent basics but a super dog no sir I sure do not and if you got that impression again you have took it the wrong way  .   I have dogs that are good at what they do but that super dog has yet to come but that takes time .   

As one man said in another post said that super dogs are to complexed and he would just rather breed for better than average dogs.  He could not have said it any better because super dogs come from good soild dogs and solid families of dogs.

I wanted to clear some of that up before I post on this mans questions.

You know the old saying that to much of something good is not good at all .  Well that applys to the dog breeding game also and am sure other performace animals also.
The first thing you are going to see when a line starts to become to inbred is the weight and size normally is going to decrease.  Then as you go into the family harder you are going to start to see the athleticism type issues and you are going to start to run into breathing , lung power are not going to be as good.  Then as you go even futher into the family you are going to start to see the underbites if not already am sure, the bones are not going to be as straight and strong ,  the dog is going to be more subject to worms, sickness and his wounds will take longer to heal and skin problems and just really everything else.

Once the dog starts having athleticism issues and his lung air starts to go then why would you want to go any futher ?  There is no reason to unless it is your ego are unless you are making $$$$$ on pretty pedigress,  because that is mother nature telling you this line has had enuff ,  hense good nuff for me, she taught our asses yes sir  !

Also I don't know if you guys realize it are not but the heavier a dog is inbred the more and more cross you are going to have to use to get the real cross genes into the gene pool .  Because your dog is so damn inbred and his gene pool is so condensed that a completely unrealated outcross slammed to it does not even effect the pups they still come out inbred and still do not have the tools to do the things they need to do because of such condensed gene pool.  So you have to take those pups and put another cross on it and now the pups come out and you can start to see the effects of the outcross ,  your dogs straighten up , they bone is coming back the size is back up the air is better and they are not getting their tools back they need to perform that your inbredness took away from them.  There is just no sense in all of this my dogs is 125 times out of old such and such ,  Why ?  If those dogs are not great are good dogs with old such and such in there 12 times what makes you think it is gonna be better at 125 times ?  LOL.   Its just crazy man .

All my dogs out there are bred so their blood can breath and they are all family bred and crossed so that I can take any dog and run to another and either tighten the family gene pool are loosen it with all bloods that are proven to cross.

The one thing the great dogs and great family lines never lost during all this inbreeding and that was the will to perform they just lost the lt of inbreeding and heavy breeding .  So with the hunting dogs familys you start heavy line breeding and inbreeding and your dogs start to loose their hunt with just a little of this kind of breeding,    Well I will leave that to your imagination , but that tells me your living in a  glass house.

To answer your question,  this is were I would stop and I would go back to the generation before and start my cross.

Once the dog starts having athleticism issues and his lung air starts to go then why would you want to go any futher ?  There is no reason to unless it is your ego are unless you are making $$$$$ on pretty pedigress,  because that is mother nature telling you this line has had enuff ,  hense good nuff for me, she taught our asses yes sir  !

if you want more info on what Jimmy is talking about go to the topic "Breeding for Results" in the hog dog section...another thing you will see is lower fertility (including smaller testicles) in males and lower fertility rates in the females as well...

Boy you said it right there.  This is how a person becomes a great breeder of great dogs trail and error hands on experience and time, time, time there is no substitute knowing what works and what does not .

I would like to say to the people that do not believe this .  Do you think in the 1800's and early 1900's any of the old hound breeders had any knowledge of genetics the big words, geno this and geno that,  homo this and homo that LOL   ,  what about the ole time Pit Bull breeders Joe Corvino ,  Gaboon Trahan , Mr Wallace, Mr Hinzel, Earl Tudor , Bert Clouse and the list goes on and on .  No I don't think they did it was trail and error and they developed their breedings skills by using their dogs and they developed their eye for great dogs and they bred them by instints being line bred inbred and even outcrossed.

I am sure back then it was trial and error but no need to reinvent the wheel of making mistakes when it is now documented...more than likely the idea with breeding brother to sister or mother to son was believed that it made lunatic and crazy dogs...the reality probably was that the inbreeding went too far and they ran into the dead ends of inbreeding depression...

I believe the best way to develop a line quickly is to inbred at the beginning and then line breed and turn a few generations over quickly as well...once that is done then slow it down to keep from going too soon to where one must outcross with the new blood...new blood means bringing in traits that will surprise you maybe for the good but probably not as much as the negative...when your putting out 80 to 100 percent above average dogs it is hard to bring in some fresh blood...

but getting back to the pitbull history...I only know one man and he was a hard core game dog man...he went all over North America and South America with his dogs back when it was not illegal...I thought I knew my dog meds and what not until I met him...He was a nutrition guru as well as a physical trainer of game dogs not to mention all the meds required for PM and for recuperating a dog that needed care...

Yup noting wrong with modern day genetics they have come a long long way for sure .

Well I tell ya done had me a 18 pack and feeling pretty good .  I tell ya I was brought up the old school way the School of Hard Knocks and its all I know weather it is right are wrong who knows but it has worked in the past and it still works today.  You know what man ,  we bred 100's of dogs we inbred familes of dogs just to see what would happen and how everything worked and in the end we found out that if you sure nuff want to know what kind of family you got after all your line and inbreeding .  You go do yourself a full Bro x Sis breeding and if it turns out great your line of dogs is right in the wheel house if it turns out like the stinky stuff on chicken number 2 then you will know were you are at in your line of dogs .  Bro and sis breeding back then was more are less used as a gauge to see were the family of dogs were.  When they bred Eli Jr x Brendy it was some of the best dogs to ever come out of a brother sister breeding those dogs bit like alligators and were worse than hell on wheels .    Like a old time dog breeder once said Bert Sorrells  the Test of a dog is the family the test of a family is time and bro let me tell you those Eli Jr x Brendy dogs stood the test of time .  The bite that those dogs had and the gentic make up carried on for years and years and more years and still today in lines that people have kept that stuff straight and culled .  Everybody thinks the Nigger Toby dogs got their mouth from the Zebo dog but that is far far from the truth if you look at the bottom side of the Nigger Toby dog it is bro x sis bred Eli jr X Brendy and what were they they were Dibo dogs with some Corvino in them now if you look at the Zebo dogs what were they they were old time Dibo dogs so what they done is they took and they back crossed it .  They bred Zebo   who was old time Dibo in the back to Pepper who was bro x sis bred Eli Jr  x Brendy who was noting more than Dibo / Corvino .  So they back crossed and look what came out of it great great dogs .  If  you look at what Earl Tudor done in his life time he was the matster of disaster he only wanted dogs that were like Mike Tyson take you out and take you out in a hurry bad assed dogs .  Earl bred best to best and the badest to the bad and he done it for years on end and he was almost unbeatable .  Then as Earl died dogmen took his dogs and they family bred these dogs and they made families of these dogs.  The real families of these dogs still carry on what Earl built in his years with the best to best breedings .  YOu can still take real famiies of these dogs and still see the Earl Tudor in them 30 years later .

The same thing can happen in the hog dogs of today .     

Its just the oppsite of what most men think.  Most think that the family carrys the outcross LOL but I can tell you from years of breeding along with some of the best bulldog breeders n the world  that the outcross carrys the family !  I don't care what kind of family dogs you have after years of breeding family you have got to cross and you breed to the wrong outcross you get chicken chit dogs that the sorriest dog men would cull and the families are never the same , you breed that family of dogs to the correct outcross and you watch what happens .  That outcross will carry your family blood making great dogs for the next upteen years and not only that other people  can build families of dogs off of that outcross .

Try it .  It don't make no difference how good your family has been over the years once they are inbred stale and you have taken it to the last level of family breeding if you don't know what crosses with that family of dogs you might as well scrap it .  This is why you make crosses along the way with this cross and that cross to find out what crosses best with your family of dogs so that when that time comes that you have inbred and linebred yourself into a corner and went as far as you can go you now have the cross that will break that familys blood out and refresh it and make it whole again and then and only then can you go back to family breeding .

Just me man , again to each his on and there is no wrong way .

Whew! SPEAKIN THE TRUTH!!!!! Lovely write up TexasHogDogs!

This has to be one of my favorite discussions yet if not #1

MAN! Great responses! And a wealth of knowledge. This thread needs to be a sticky.

This is EXACTLY right.  You line breed / family breed until the desired traits you are breeding for, start to diminish.  At that point you make your outcross, and then go back into the family again.  This is if you are trying to perpetuate a "line" of dogs.  Bulldog men know that there are some lines that cross together well and some that don't.  It don't mean that any of the lines are necessarily better than the others, it just means that time has proven that certain lines will cross better together.  I tried to breed lines together for years (and had good dogs) and the results were not that great.  It seems to me that the best crosses I ever made were just breeding the best to the best.  An old dog buddy of mine, Cecil Pond would say . . "Son, just breed the best male on the yard to the best female on the yard, then go in the house and pull out the pedigrees and see what you just did".   

   some one a few post back talked about all this info being lost when the old timers are gone . you couldn't be farther off the mark .  all these breeders of bulldogs and game fowl have left their info in the form of knowledge that has been passed on in books and is still being taught to geneticist at the college level today . the American game fowl breeders worked hard and long figuring this stuff out and keeping records . of course most fowl breeders had dogs and horses as well these practices they used were heavily documented and preserved .  a good read on genetics and breeding is [ the scientific breeding of game fowl ] by Floyd Gurley in it, it contains an 8 generation pedigree of Boudreaux's blind billy plus co-effiancy charts for the dog as well . so this info is out there but it gets deep and takes some studying to understand it   lol .

10-4 on that...it is written and it can get complicated and confusing...so the best policy when breeding dogs is to breed the best to the best from within a family/line of dogs...the best defense is a good offense when breeding dogs...

I am willing to bet that those breeders were reading the older books on genetics as well...some learning's from the books and some from the school of hard knocks...

Thanks for all the history & knowledge. It's like opening up a stratton book or agdt. No expert but have seen a all red come out of 2 black dogs then that red dog throw a all red when bred to a black bitch. I havent bred many dogs. Maybe just luck, these were snooty/eli dogs. Have 2 bulldogs now that I run. I'm jot pedigree guy the dogs I have r bred how the dogmen I got them from say. Male isa 10 yri old tight Joe black dog 48# bulldog & gyp is 2 yr old 46# leggy runner out of fatty blood.
Male came to my yard @ age of 2 already seen some yardmates so I just locked him away until I built some bond with him. Has hit a few pups thru the years that were brought home but not a fight crazy. Been all over hell & bak thru divorce lol so he seen other yards.Started hunting him with my buddy found out he don't like bmc's that hackle up so had to put the brakes on that. Been runnin my female with my buddies pack since she was 6 months she is socialized to say the least. No problems to this point. Knock on wood. Least hunting bulldog I've ever seen ha but I kinda like it! Hits the ear fights it a bit tho. These 2 r at the house with 2 black & tan c pit ,healer crosses. No problems & let me tell u its not a lazy yard! Took me long time have this problem! Really tho these dogs r off the chain. They work out ther difference with my supervision pecking order is in place & workin good. Truthfully never thought b possible. I always tell people the men I got these dogs from wouldn't want them back!But anyways guys I love the bulldogs talk & thanks agai

Joe Black threw some very nice dogs still know a lot that have them.  I bet those dogs that were black dogs and then threw a red here and there were Eli type of dogs.   We use to see that when breeding straight black Eli type of dogs and the  black blooded dogs.  A lot of the old time Eli breeders waited for it to happen then they would keep the Red dog and use as a stud type of dog and use him as a back cross for the black dogs  .  We all narrowed it down to that the Red dogs gene pool was a throwback and went straight back to the Dibo gene pool itself .  Those Red dogs would make some very good producers for the people that knew .

Heard from numerous people that there were a lot of controversy around this particular subject. Not saying one thing or another, and not trying or implying any of that. It just created alot of arguments in the past amongst old timers. This has been a great read thanks guys.

Two red dogs should not be able to produce black dogs but two black dogs can produce red dogs...

Correct Rueben , it was the solid black lines when Black x Black were bred that would throw the Red dog here and there.  When the black lines had been kept straight black for years on end.

Bigfoot you are 100% right .  It cause a ton of conterversy between a lots of the old timers.

Also when the black blood had been bred for years on end as straight as you could get it.  A Red dog would pop out now that was one thing but there was  another thing.   These black dogs and black blood that was being bred were of the highest caliber and very very heavy family bred dogs and with being that heavy bred most of the dogs would run in weight from 30 to maybe 45 lbs . Here is the head scratcher!  When the Red dog did pop up most of the time he was a monster of a dog and was like a 65, 70 lbs dog and sometimes bigger ,  that one I myself and others have never figured out till this day.

Its a amazing thing to have been able to have sit there and watch all this develop over years and years of breeding these dogs and not just myself doing this but a lot of us were close friends and I not only got to see it in my dogs that I was breeding but theirs and they got to see it in mine,  This is not hear say but facts seen in the flesh .

BigFool not BigFoot sorry hit the wrong key LOL

Some more breeding history of Pit Bulls and Ole Time breeders.  Once again I don't want anybody to think am telling them how to breed their dogs but these are just some of the experinces I had .  You do what you want and see fit with your dogs .

At one time it was believed that you could take a family of these dogs and linebreed and inbreed these familes  so hard and so much that there would come a point that the blood would reverse itself and that the dogs that were in the back of the peds would come to the front again and you could reproduce some of the main dogs in the back of the pedigree by having them back there so many times.

I don't know but I suspect this is why many people that have their on lines of dogs say man I got old so and so in the back of this ped 150 times himself .  I would suspect they are trying to reproduce this male are one in there like him close by.  Does it work yeah it can I would say and it had been done to some extent .

The thing is people figured out pretty fast that were breeding and useing high performace dogs it just was not worth all the trouble .  One of the main things in this was you had to wade threw all the chit dogs because again once you get so far into a bloodline it goes stale .    Here's the kicker .  It was also believed that at one time once you got to the stale part of the family in the line and inbreeding so much that you had to go another gen are two to actually get the bloodline to reverse itself .  In other words once you got to the line and inbreeding breaking point in your family of dogs and the dogs were already stale you had to go one more gen are two before you could reach the point that the blood would reverse itself back to the dog you was trying to deplucate . 

I myself tried this but once I got to the point that my dogs were at their breaking point are more I just could not make myself go any further.  I was wading threw so much bad dogs to me it just was not worth the trouble .  When I say bad dogs I don't mean dogs that did not want to hunt what I mean is dogs that did not have the tools to do what they wanted to do because of the heavy heavy line and inbreeding took it away from them.  I also don't really know if anybody ever made it to the end of the deal are not I just don't think so .

By doing this we learned hard lessons along the way.  We seen all the changes of the dogs along the way.  We learned that inbred dogs and heavy heavy heavy line bred dogs just cannot do the things a good cross could do like dogs of  half and half breedings , dogs that were 5/8's pure with 3/8's outcross in them,  half bro x half sister,  3/4 family dogs 1/4 cross .    This all goes back to once you get to your familys breaking point its almost useless and sensless to go any futher with out putting some type of cross blood in there that you know will work.

You have to look at each breeding you make as a tool .  What can this tool do for me .

Some of yall are going to say well that's like trying to breed for a throwback dog in the pedigree .  You know what you could not be more correct !  This is why we found out its just better to breed your great dogs and your great family of dogs and not worry about the throwback dog because he is only gonna come when mother nature wants him to come and there is not one damn thing you are going to do are me that is going to make it come any faster.  This was a hard lesson learned threw many old time dogmen and great dog breeders.

Hell man it takes years and years of breeding to get to these points .  I myself just been messing with breeding these cur dogs for 10/12 years that's just the baby stages .  I have hunted hogs a lot longer than that but just never messed with breeding the dogs for it .

That first red dog we got is a monster! 73lbs & not fat by any measure. Now that my memory keeps comin back , it was 2 of his black littermates bred together to create another red. Then he was bred to a aunt of his to create a lil all red that looks just like the foundation bitch. The 73# monster has never been bred. Got plans to do that now that I hunt these dogs. Doglife got put on the back burner when goin thru divorce.

I read this post daily... So much history such a storied breed. I will forever own them..