EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

Another topic had me thinking....A cull is a cull, period and we all will have varying ideas or beliefs on what a cull is but sometimes a dog who may not be working out for one man may be the perfect dog for another. Lets say I have 3 places to hunt,say 600-1000 acres with hiways close etc etc.  but I have a dog who will go 6 miles to stop and or get a hog bayed....is that dog a cull or one who just wont suit my needs ? to me it would be a a dog who just don't suit the needs of the place or type of hunting I would be doing.Or you have 2 dogs who are short range,rough and handle well but you have 10,000 -15,000 acres and few hogs,would these two be culls...for that situation prolly but for dude in situation #1 w/ only a coupple small spot they may be the best thing ever....A dog that really fits into a "cull" catergory should be removed from the gene pool and not be passed off again and again but sometimes it could be right dog wrong situation...

Well stated.

Cheers
M

Good point, one mans trash is another mans treasure. That being said, If I think that a dog is a cull, its not going to leave my yard. That is just my personal preference. Now if I could only figure out a way to accurately test pups before they leave......

Steve

And you as well....

We are typing @ the same time...lol

I guess it really depends on what your in it for.  All BS aside, there are probably very few people out there who are willing to take a loss on a dog and chalk it up to a lesson learned when one doesn't work out as hoped.

how do i word this  i been know to  cull hard and i have waisted some money doing it...
  with that said i have a good looking yeller gyp come  get her  she's 9 months old
 i just dont like her no more,,ill give her a couple more chances and we will be cleaning the gene
 pool
         Dexter

Ask them young boys I gave them dogs to the other night,if they dont fit in your program its not gonna work.Dogs already found hogs and they love them.

ya mex i hunted with them boys the other night, that jay dog is a real good dog, mite not be what you or me want but its perfect for them and they love him...You guys are all right...if a dog is just pure $h!t ill cull him in my own yard, but like underdog and everyone else said, it is not necessarily a bad dog if it just dont fit your hunting style or situation... I have bought dogs that were crap, I have given them away, told it how it was and lost money on them, and just killed them... sometimes its hard to swaller but thats life. I lost 300 dollars on some puppies the other day, they were poor and unhealthy so i got all of them and fattened them up wormed them and give most of them away, traded one for a brood gyp then gave her back...bought a walker dog for 600 and was open on track, sold him for 200 to a GW in LA.that didnt mind, I just cant hunt a long range dog most of the time, too many highways sometimes and stuff like that, so i got rid of some long range dogs and got some short-medium range ones, they were not culls by no means.It all depends on your hunting situation and style... gave mex two plots for a bmc pup, didnt like the stripes and he does, unless a dog is pure crap then 9 out of 10 times someone else would be glad to have it... the problem comes with those that sell crap knowing its crap and charging too much, gave mr mason a brindle dog for a bmc, she was not crap, just didnt want a striped dog...I cull hard, and the quality of my dogs reflect it.. If a dog only hunts 30-40 yards while another one is pissin and crappin 30-or 40 yards then leaving, that dont make them culls, especially being 18mths old, they mite be a good help dog for someone that uses help dogs..My main dog was a guy in LA's cull, ask anybody around about ol red, wouldnt turn down 5k for him ;D but i did turn down 2k.. Anytime you buy a grown dog think about it, someone is getting rid of him for some reason or another...very rare he is just sellin it for the hell of it... unless you strictly raise your own dogs you are hunting what didnt work for someone else for whatever reason.. there is a fine line between culls and something that dont work for a particular person.. some folks dont see that and think selling a dog that dont work for you is ripping someone off... nobody twistes anybodys arm to buy a dog, you buy it you should no what it is before you buy it, there are crooked people out there and thats with anything these days, DONT JUST BUY SOMETHING WITHOUT TRING IT first and that will save lots of headache. This is a good post and should be very informative to lots of folks, sorry i wrote a whole book!!! ;D

You can cull a dog because it dont suit your needs. ( to me cull hard has an entirely different meaning) With bird dogs, a trialer may cull one because it dont have the range he is looking for, but the dog works well for a foot hunter. Or a hunter gets a dog that is too rangy and a trialer picks it up for a try.

But when a dog does nothing to earn it's keep, that's a cull in my opinion.If he dont suit you but would suit me, it just wasnt a good fit for you. If he dont suit anyone, that's a cull.

All this is the exact reason that as a rule, I don't sell my dogs.

It's true that with enough swapping around eventually most dogs might find a place in someone's pack, but how many people are ticked along the way at the "sorry &^% dog that came from so-and-so" until it finds that place.

To me, my reputation and the fact that someone might not be satisfied is just not worth a couple hundred bucks.  

ya bryant, but your reputation is not damaged unless you dont tell it how it is about the dog, and make sure they no what they are buying. If they try it out and like it thats their deal and dont hurt your reputation.

all you have to do to keep your rep is tell the truth and back it up if it dont work make it right with that person and to me that is where you get an even better reputation!!!

well said rowdy

Not always true.  How many times you think a dog gets passed on and it still carries the person of origin with it.  For instance, a dog is given to a guy who doesn't like it so he passes it on and tells the new owner, "its a Bryant dog".  Then it gets passed on over and over with the same info.  Before long 5 people think Bryant's dog's suck. 

    No offense Bryant, just an example.

another very good point kevin

well if thats the case its not Bryants fault unless he wouldnt give that guy his money back and take the dog back and cull it!!  JUST an EXAMPLE BRYANT!!!!

I agree it should be on whoever bought it then sold it the second time, unfortunately it is not always that way... 99% of dogs i cull go to people i no for just that reason :)

your absolutly right and so is Kevin but it always lands on the guy before them they never want to take the blame themselves

My point is that some people have differing hunting styles, land, and terrain. One of the strike dogs we "culled" from our pack found 15 hogs for his new owners within his trial period. These finds resulted in catches. Now I am absolutely not saying that we have superdogs, I'm just saying that this particular dog wasn't as well suited to what we were doing as Craig's Annie dog who took his place in Chris' pack. We did not cull that male dog because he was junk - he was a truly exceptional dog. We "culled" him from our pack because he didn't suit us as well as Annie did.

I guess it goes back to the definition of the term cull. To me, culling happens when you eliminate from your pack the dogs that aren't well suited to you, your style of hunting, or your hunting land regardless of the dog's hog finding abilities. It goes without saying that some dogs don't have it in them to hunt, and those dogs are also culls. How you deal with your culls is your own business, but to say that I shouldn't have sold my culls means that some folks out there would be without their top dogs. Perhaps when I'm ready to cull old Buck because I have to drive so far to pick up he and his hogs I'll stick to that principle.  ;)

thats right aladatrot, a dog can be culled for many reasons, not making him junk, just not suitable for you.. and if i buy a dog that doesnt work for me for 500 dollars thats suppose to be a finished dog, and sell it to someone for 200 dollars as the help dog it is to someone that needs a help dog, that is not being a dog trader or ripping someone off, i sell a dog for whatever its worth to me when i decide to cull it, most of the time resulting in me loosing money on the dog... my concience is clean, as long as you dont lie about a dog to get rid of it faith is on your side.

Ditto!

I agree, as long as you tell the truth as you know it to be, nothing wrong with selling a dog that didn't quite work for you... People just need to know that when they here a story, that there are always two sides to the story...

just a thought!!!!!!!  wouldnt you love to hear the dogs side of the story
 but all in all "say what you mena and mean what you say"
                     Dexter

Yeah, look at it from the dogs point of view...You take him out, build a relationship with him, get him started, and they you sell him to sombody who rolls in throws him in the back of the dog box and throws him at the first hog he sees to test him out....The dog is like what in the world is going on here?  How would we respond if everything we knew was taken from us and we were shipped off to somewhere new, where old dumb ass new owner starts evaluating us right off the bat... How would most of us perform?

Now this brings up a whole new thread. The MAJORITY of new dogs i've been around take a while to adjust with the new owners and new packs. Sometimes several hunts... sometimes several weeks. That's why I don't feel a short trial period is sufficient when buying "high dollar" dog... know what your getting before you buy, along with a lengthy trial period. ;)

... but like I said, that's a whole new topic. ;D

to me CULLING is terminal...if a dog is a cull he is a gonner and will not be pawned off on another person. Two reasons that I can think of off hand are being aggressive to people and being bad about fighting with other dogs. Gonners...

Now there are lots of dogs that dont suit me that may or may not end up makin a dog. These dogs, I dont consider culls just undesirable to me for one reason or another. someone else may love them. I do not consider them culls.

I mean no offense to anyone...If you want to trade dogs, that's your own business but I think the point of the thread has been lost.  What I'm referring to is that there's a big difference between a dog that doesn't fit your hunting style, and a cull.  Two seperate things completely.


Good example Kevin.  In fact, you came with someone else to my place not so long ago and picked up a dog that I gave away just as you mentioned above.  (A dog in fact that I raised and had over $700 cash invested in).  She wasn't making the cut with my pack, I had younger dogs I was working and didn't have the time she needed but I was not ready to call her a cull.  I took a big loss on the dog with only the understanding that even if I had to drive to come pick her back up, that if he wasn't happy that she come back to me for exactly the reason you mentioned above.  Are you telling me she has since moved on?

I completely agree with several posts that have been made...
I have a couple of questions/scenarios for you all:


If someone (GUY) buys a dog that was bought as a Strike/Finished dog, how long (much time/days or hunts) should GUY realistically use/work this dog before making up his mind?  -- Considering that NO trials / guarantees or things like that were made
BOTTOM LINE HOW LONG SHOULD GUY WORK THE DOG BEFORE MAKING A DETERMINATION ON THE DOG BEING "WORTH IT" ? ???

Say that GUY recently bought dog (the dog above) that was sold as a 'FINISHED' dog, GUY has had this dog for about 2 weeks, GUY hunted this dog several times and have killed approximately 8-10 hogs while this dog has been on the ground around GUY's pack. 
HOW LONG SHOULD GUY CONTINUE TO 'HOPE / WORK' THIS DOG TO SEE IF SHE 'COMES AROUND'??

HOW/WHEN DO YOU COME TO THE DETERMINATION THAT THE DOG IS PARTIAL TO HER PREVIOUS OWNER?
HOW/WHEN DO YOU DETERMINE THAT THE DOG WAS A 'STRIKE/FINISHED' DOG FOR HER PREVIOUS OWNER?

I post this for comments/answers to the questions for everyones different opinions NOT to bad mouth anyone or any dog sellers!! ;)

  No, I was just using your name since you had posted above me.  



   I agree with your line of thinking.  If a dog leaves my yard, it is either a puppy or a dog that I just don't need.  I have "ate" more money on culls that I've bought then a lot of these guys on these boards have spent buying dogs.   That's why you won't see me buying anymore.

  To clarify,  I don't mean ETHD boards.  I mean internet boards in general.

Personally, I think going hunting with the dog and with it's owner is far more indicative of what you might be getting than a trial.  Then the next step is knowing what to look for when your there.  If you don't and your new to the sport, take someone along that does.  Going one step further, I would always ask to see the dog hunt ALONE.  A good, independant lead dog can sure make a me-too follower look like the real deal.

Honestly, I'm probably not the guy to answer your question.  In my years of hunting I've only bought one established strike dog (and traded for one other) that made the cut with me but I'll admit I've been "snookered" a few times by some smooth talkers.


Bingo!  And culls in the TRUE sense....

Sounds like a bad deal since there were no trials or guarantees involved. Hopefully he hunted with the dog to determine if it was "worth it" before money exchanged hands?

IF more people would just DO SOME HARD CULLING then there would be alot less sorry dogs in the world  rolleyes but instead they sell them or give them away and then thats when there name gets ruined when the dog or cull does not do what they want them to. its alot better just 2 stop it before it starts i no it may seem harsh or just plain cruel but its better in the end because if the dog does not work out for the person u gave the dog 2 what do u think is going 2 happen anyways  :o  i think that is true culling.. NOT i just dont like the dog and dont have time for it so i will just give it away or sell it.. if u breed dogs u are responsible for them so either take the time to give them a chance to turn out and then cull them or do away with them if they do not turn out. dont give them away or sell something YOU ur self would not want 2 own or keep   meaning a CULL. i think if ur breeding for hog dogs and hog dogs only and they dont work out as hog dogs well cull them !!!  jmo  OR if u get a dog that is worth less then do every body a favor and Cull IT dont pass it on 2 some one else. and some mans trash may be another mans treasure. but it wont be my trash!!! and also people need 2 stop breeding un proven dogs this would help a little bit!! jmo im sorry if i upset anybody    

 Way too many people breeding crap dogs to crap dogs.

I suggest we just say hard culling, as you just never know who is reading these boards...Not trying to be a prude, but too many people don't know about enough about hog hunting, and with more and more of an urban population out there, we don't want people reading this board to misinterpret what we are saying..just my 0.02 cents...

Yup ,a sad but true statement.

diamond a , thats my opinion exactly !

IM glad some one else feels the same way i do i no it may seem harsh but whats not its the truth. and the way i was raised maybe one day people will start to think before they do some thing and we will all be a little better off  ???

I have a question for y'all....Is this a cull?


  This is a dog that is obviously not working for someone else...Should he "Cull", give her away as a pet, or pass her along to the next person that wants to try to make something of her?

I don't think we have enough informaiton to really determine...however, it says she is an unbelievable bay dog, so probably not....just needs some time and patience to get a better handle on her..However, some would probably cull no doubt..

Yes, that is a cull. Every breeder should be breeding for a goal and all progeny who do not meet that goal are by definition culls. Every puppy that is purchased is acquired based on an expectation that they emulate their parents and those who do not reach said expectation are by definition culls. The excerpt in bold, italic and underline says it all if you read it for what it really says........ I bred or bought this dog which is imperfect to such a strong degree that I am tempted to shoot it. However, I don't want to take responsibility for my progeny or loose the money that I paid for the dog so I am going to sell my PITA to someone else instead.

Steve

 Chris,
   I think a true cull is a dog that isnt fit to be a working dog. I find it hard for me to cull a dog. I dont raise puppys b/c I dont like them. I have been working on a pack for over two years now. I am still not where I should be. I know that their are too many good dog out there for me to be raiseing pups. I have passed on 4 dogs so far. One was a lacy cross that didnt want to bay hogs. I started her on blood. She was good at it. I sold her to a cpuple that bow hunts. She has tracked a few deer for them. They were a perfect match for her. The second was a lacy that didnt have the drive. He worked good in a pen but not the woods. I sold him to a guy down south that wantted a ranch dog to chase animals at his place. Again,perfect match. The 3rd was a dog I got that I got on a trade. He would use his nose,bay and all the other things you wanted in a young dog. I have two pups right now that I am working with and dont have the time to work three pups so I gave him to a friend of mine to try out. I could of taken the easy way and culled them but I found good homes for them instead or found something they worked out for. And when I say sold, I took a hit in the pocket book for sure. It isnt about money to me. I would rather see a dog being used for something then cull them.
   I think we would see a major decline in culling if people would use their head when it came to breeding. I am not a dog breeder but I now enough about it to know to stay away from it. My favorite thing to see is "the touch of plott should add just enough nose to these pups". A dog's breed doesnt make it hunt. I have only been in the sport for a few years but have seen dogs of all makes and ages to know that you breed for the dog not the breed. A good dog plus a good dog doesnt make great dogs. A great dog and great dog doesnt always make great dogs. I think people get wrapped up int eh whole breeding game. Look at how many people post pups and such.  I am not saying people who sale pups on the internet dont know what they are saying at all but there sure are alot of puppys for sale a any givent time.

I think some the people who a multipal litters on the ground at the same time rely on the sale of those pups. When you start relying on the money the pups make you the quality declines. Not just in hunting dogs but anything form horses to game chickens. People will base there line off a stud and anyting they have that comes into heat will be bred without a second thought just to get paid.

I have not had the dog that long, almost killed her saturday, hunted her twice since and she struck hogs both times, she is only 10mths old, she is just a little shy... I known diamond A for a long time and they called last week and wanted the dog...because of where it came from, and it was more or less a joke between me and her, and since she wanted a young dog for a cowdog i said she could HAVE it, not sell... besides, im very glad i held on to her till she got use to me... not many people can say their 10mth old struck and bayed two hogs in two hunts... and back it up. A perfect example of what a stupid idea it is to cull just because your mad at the dog. Anybody posting on this topik would have done backflips to get her and said i was nuts cause i got rid of her,  she is not a cull i was just aggravated and joking with ashley, a cull is a $hiT eater that is useless for anypart of hoghunting, I do cull plenty in my yard, but just as many find new homes with owners that they satisfy... and if your not gonna give a pup or dog a chance to make something or to prove itself then you have no business raising dogs... It dont make you a big man to kill a pup or dog, and its not fair to keep breeding them if that is your goal. If you have to raise 5 litters and cull them all...till you get one you like,  you just mite need some new bloodlines and stop wasting LIFE... just as i said about killing hogs just to do it and leave them there to rot, when they are all gone it wont be fun anymore, same with a dog, if you cull them all they mite become extinct too ;D  Just jokin i no it will likely never happen...All forms of life are a precious thing, and all forms of nature and its resources should be protected and appreciated and not used up. Just my opinion, i dont want to offend anyone and was not speaking directly to anyone.

good post....I agree...If you agree to take on the responsibility of a dog, you should give it a reasonable chance to make a dog...no quesiton about it..

thanks dgdawsonBMCs

Hogtied,

     I intentionally left your name out of my quote, as I was not intending to "call you out" on anything...What really had me wondering about it, is when I read Ashley's post in this thread. It seems a bit contradictory, at least they way I am reading it. I "think" she means that any dog that does not work out for someone due to an undesirable trait is a cull. Yet, in the cow dog post she is interested in the dog and trying to make her work out....
Ashley

Ashley


With that said,  I see nothing wrong with selling a dog, giving a dog away, etc...so long as their is complete disclosure.... which seems to be the case here. It certainly does not appear as though you are trying to cheat anyone, or misrepresent the dog....Just that from my interpretation of Ashley's post, this dog would be a cull ??? and should not be passed around ???

THE dog i was talking about in the post is working out as a hog dog but she could also make a good cow dog hogtied just didnt want 2 mess with her because she is hard 2 catch.. not because she is a cull not because he dont like her and not because she is out of junk.. she has showed her self in just a few times being hunted. i simply wanted her because i want a dog around that age 2 start on cows and wanted 2 try the cward multi purpose dog meaning bay hogs with her and work cows. i have seen cward do it and he has some jam up dogs both cow and hog dogs.. but sorry i hit a nerve didnt mean 2 strike ur interest and thanks for saying i contradicted myself  :-\   but NOW U have heard the whole story so maybe u will chang ur mind. and the way u see things and the way i see them are totally different u may feel its ok 2 sell or give away a cull. but i will not do it.

ashley,
  That is the reason I uaed that dog as an example....you might note that some considered it a cull wheras others did not it seems that there is a pretty large grey are concerning culls.  Btw,thanks for clearing it up with getting bent out of shape...your deal on that dog is what came to mind first after reading this thread....I did not originally intend to single someone out ;)

sorry ashley I didnt mean to drag you into the fryin pan :laugh: Like you said circle c, there are many variations of the word cull, and most people have different opinions on it, and everybody is entitled to their own opinion, with that said, there is no right or wrong answer, it comes down to personal preference ;D my point is that they deserve a chance, many dogs have caught lead poisoning at my house... but they earned it LOL

Talk about beating a dead horse !!! :o

no just beat a culled dog!!!  LOL ;D

What he is saying ashley is that some (not you obviously) would consider that a cull...I guess we should all agree that the word CULL can mean different things to different people..

That after all is the theme of this thread :o :o :o

Dgdawson,
Thank you, you understood what I was trying to get across.