EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

Would like to here some of what y'all think bottom is why you like or diss like. Was out with my buddy texsteve85 the other night got on a few but missed them his dog gritt ran one for over 6 miles and 2 1/2 hrs now I have been on a lot of races that last few hrs and few miles but most of them ended with us getting the hog. I can say that gritt is the real deal dog he just lost him at the end but any way lets here what y'all think

Several months ago their was a really good post on bottom.   It would be great if we could give it a bump.   


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We hunt dogs with a lot of bottom and I am usually very proud of it. Sometimes though, I won't lie, I think that the alligators are the way to go, LOL. It seems like every now and then you just draw one that is a track star. Our one dog isn't gritty enough to get it shut down and it runs so hard so fast that you play hell getting help there. Seems like it happens more when we get in a group of hogs. We catch one or the hogs break bay and the dogs wind up in different directions. While your going to dog A and B, dog C is getting further and further. By the time you get to his turn he is too far to get help to him. I think it's one of those damned if you don't and sometimes damned if you do situations. I decided I'd rather take a chance on being damned if you do, JMO.

That is exactly what happen to us I run one with decent bottom he is loose on his own but will teeth a runner the rest are very rough and catchy works good for me

What I like in Bottom can change depending on where I hunt  ;D

It depends on the situation to me whether I like it or not. I can't stand to chase 80lb hogs all Mornin to not get anything but tired dogs. Now if it's a big hog I want them to stay with it but only prob with that is big boars will run thru sows an shoats and that happens good bit around here

Bottom is the determination to complete a task at all cost, even his own life. It is up to us to decide how much of that we can use these days. It got to be a real problem before I was forced to quit hunting. I allways said I would quit hunting before I would breed less bottom and it got decided for me.

Plz explain??

Distance...and which direction hogs break.....I'll cross a fence but I obviously don't want them getting TOO far off my place.

Simply said..bottom = not giving up.

Whether it is a catch dog or a hunting dog, I believe a dog must not give up on catching or hunting game.

I kinda disagree here....if my best dog or CD is cut down (life threatening) I'd much rather them give up and come back to me. Give me a chance to save them...let them work another day. No doubt about it...my Emmet CD would be dead if he stayed after that last group....as it is...he'll be heading back out REAL soon.

A dog that gives up and doesn't have bottomis a cull to me.  I've had many dogs that were cut badly stayed bayed or keep running until I catch them; and they still want to go.  My catch dog sure better stayed caught or die trying.  If you want your dog to give up-you may want to relook your own individual mental toughness.

Maybe another topic but it sounds like your dogs may be tougher than you.  So how many people want a dog that is cut to quit or come back?  Not me.  Me and my dogs are out to catch game and we want a caught hog at the end of the hunt. 

I agree I would rather have to go get them then have them come back empty handed or should I say quit a hog but the second you say you got this or that your dogs will say other wise lol

I'll say this...you got some BALLS talkin about someone's mental toughness when you wouldn't know them from Adam. How old are you? You ever serve in the Military, in a Combat unit? Learn to think before you speak.

Personally....I think your full of it. I seriously doubt you'd cull your best dog if he came back to you with his guts hangin out.

ALL TALK!!

Myself, I always related bottom and stamina more closely than bottom and gameness. I do agree though that a dog has too have the certain degree of mental toughness to stay in a race along with the physical ability. If they are lacking in either area, they simply won't be able to go. But, I don't know if my present bay dogs, if cut all to pieces would die to finish a hog. I hope I don't have to find out. I do know that they will stay hooked for hours upon hours even when they had some cuts. I've seen them come by after being in the woods all day catching hogs and leave bloody foot prints as they go by and bay another hog a couple hundred yards later. As for my catch dog quitting, it better not happen. I can tell you from experience that it is a pretty bad feeling to have to army crawl into a hog only to see the catch dog setting there not doing anything or even attempting to. The only reason I didn't get eat up in there was that my strike dog was on the opposite side of the hog from me. When the hog started to me, he grabbed it in the rear and it turned to get him off. That allowed me to get the back leg and control. Needless to say, that fella didn't like what I had to say about his prized catch dog.

I agree on if a strike dog is gutted then I am o.k. with them stopping and not dragging their intestines all over, but a catch dog better stay caught no matter what to me... I don't care how bad they get cut down they darn well better keep going and trying, not coming to me to find me. That's just me. And I will get rid of a catch dog that will quit a hog in any circumstance.

I'm 37

I' survived a combat tour in Iraq 2003 before contractors were every wehere...not sure why that's means anything.

My best dog would not come back with her guts hanging out- she would have bayed the hog or died trying.  If you don't believe me, ask BA-IV.  He can vouch for her and my other dogs. 

I have no question about my mental toughness and my dogs ability to stay when the going gets tough.  Sounds to me like when one of your pouches gets a little cut you are calling for them to come back.

I don't care how bad my dogs are hurt; I don't want them to give up...any they wont give up.  They will die trying or they will slow down so much that I have to go and get them.

Mike Tyson Said:  Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth!!!!   I want my dogs to maintain that plan after several punches!!!!    Bottom is the one sole difference in a dog that will find a hog and a HOG DOG like it or not!!!!   Me and my 9 year old son were trying to catch our dogs off a bad walking, fighting bear one day.  Every dog had been bite and chewed up but we still couldn't get them off after 7 hours.  After walking 2 miles into them bayed, only to have the bear break again I looked my young son right in the eyes and said:  Good dogs are harder to follow than junk!!!  If you can't have dogs to run off the property you hunt, I understand that, but try to justify those kind of dogs for everyone.  Giving up is not an option,  good dogs don't!!!!

Mental toughness and ignorance are two different things. Again your running your mouth and don't know what the hell your talking about. Have I ever said that I've called my dogs off when they were cut? Don't make assumptions it just makes you look like an ass.

Really?  ???

"I don't care how bad my dogs are hurt; I don't want them to give up...any they wont give up.  They will die  go and get them."

This coming from a man who gets on to people for showing pics/videos of hogs being stuck. What do you think P.E.T.A. would do with that statement.  rolleyes

Keep flapping your jaws....your a peach

Well said Oconee- This is the way I see it.  If my dogs could talk I think they will tell you that all they want to do is catch game and it is a matter of life and death to them.  My dogs are hunting dogs and that is what I expect of out of them- hunt and a lot of it.  I can accept a lot of things: getting out run by a hog when my dogs are not in good shape, dogs getting on another hog besides the one I turned out on- but one thing I do not allow and one thing I can not accept is a dog just giving up.  If my dogs were MMA fighters, they wouldn't tap out- they would either get knocked out trying or pass out. 

I learned at a young age through sports to never give up.  I've lost at every sport and just about every other thing life can throw at me- but I've never given up on anything.  I look to my inner strength and God for determination.  My dogs are a reflection of me and they will not give up injured or not.

 :o My Hero :'(

Maybe I am missing something- you are the one that disagreed with me.

You are the one that said you would rather your dogs give up did you not?????  This thread is about bottom and the man asked peoples opinion and I gave mine.

Anybody else want their dogs to give up?

Kevin if you have anything else to say directly to me or want to insult me - call me.

You comment on just about every post on here and if there is anybody running their mouth, it would be you.

I'm not an internet hero....you'll never find me calling my dogs all stars or hear me putting down another Hunter or his dogs. I'm happy with my dogs because they produce for me. Are they perfect? Heck no...but I'm working on building something that suites me to a "T" and that may take a while.

As far as my dogs coming back to me because of a cut...it's never happened. I did FIND my bulldog cut down so bad he couldn't walk. He's recovered nicely and due to hit the woods in a couple weeks.

Sure...I post a lot...and they're  mostly helpful posts or just opinions....stated in a gentlemanly manner.

But just to be clear....YES...in a life or death situation....I'd rather find my dog coming back to me with his guts hanging out then find him a mile later...DEAD...with his guts hanging out.

Every time you open that brass snap its a life or death situation!!!!

That is a fact

bottom is the ability to stick...and heart is the determination to get the job done...but they all mean the same more or less...one thing when breeding three or 4 generations of top dogs we want to protect what has cost lots of time and money to produce...so when the dogs get turned out one has to wonder if one will be crippled or killed...there is a fine line between not having enough grit to stop a bad hog or too much that the dog might not live very long...I want the dogs to have the bottom to get the job done and the sooner the better but I want them to be smart about it...smart meaning knowing when to catch and at the same time protecting themselves...

I had pretty gritty dogs with lots of bottom...but to catch more hogs in thick brushy conditions I needed dogs with even more grit and I was thinking a quarter of pit and breed less of it but to capture what was needed...I love all the bottom that is needed to get the job done but I wanted to not have to be testing it for hours when we could catch most within 15 minutes...but those kind of dogs probably will not live too long because heat exhaustion will get some of these dogs due to them not having enough sense to be content in keeping the hog stopped...all out catch equals a bigger chance to get the dog cut down or extreme heat exhaustion...that fine line between not enough grit and too much is pretty fine...

the bottom line...I want the bottom to get the job done...and one day to have the dogs that have the bottom to get the job done no matter how many hours... but dogs that can get the job done well enough that bottom won't have to be tested very often...
 

My dogs would rather me find them dead with their chin up and guts hanging out b/c they gave it their all and they have bottom versus making the long walk back to the truck with their guts out and chin down because they gave up!  Trust me, my dogs get beat by running hogs all the time, but they don't quit.  I don't like the fact that my dogs often kill small hogs but the fact is they do.  They do it because that's how they are bred.  They are running to catch game...not just bay it.

When I was in the Army we had the two Mile PT run.  I was able to run the 2 miles in less than 12:00.  I thought I was running hard.  My Platoon Sargent came up to me one day and said I was running hard enough.  I said I maxed my score, what do you mean Im not running hard enough.  The Sargent looked at me and said "if you were running as hard as you could, you would have crossed that finish line throwing up and falling over Sir".  That moment has stuck with me my entire life.  Just because your are running hard, doesn't mean you are running as hard as you can.  I use this mentality when judging bottom in a dog.  I want a dig that finished the race throwing up and falling over.....or what I am trying to say is I want a dog to gives it all.  And "all" means catching the hog or die trying...and don't give up no matter what.

Every 2 Mile PT run I made after that I thought to myself I could have run harder.  Although I never quit, I never gave it my all because I never fell over or finished throwing up.  I did manage to run a 10:52 2 Mile and set a personal best.

Everyone has a different meaning and interpretation of terms.  One thing that is not in my vocabulary is the word quit.

The thing that sticks out to me is the dog was running less than three miles per hour :)

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I was in C Co. 1st Bn. 75th Ranger Regiment.
10:52 is a good time...10:54 was my Best right before I went to Ranger School. Course that was almost 25 years  and about 80 lbs ago, lol.

Honestly...it's just different strokes for different folks I guess. I've sat here and typed and deleted, typed and deleted, trying to convey my thoughts into words but I can't so  I'll say is....I hope your very happy with your dogs and wish you the best of luck.

How was being bayed and breaking over and over .
If he wasnt 1.5m on another property we would have got that pig.

He may be talking about miles as the crow flys from opening chop to pick up point, if you select "start new hunt" and use total dog miles to judge a race distance it would more than likely be a different story.

I bet that's how y'all are keeping track of run miles as do I, mine probably don't have the bottom that yours and mikes do, but even I've seen a couple of 20-25 miles races that never get over 2 maybe 3 miles as the crow flys.

I will concede though, I personally think that while bottom is of the utmost importance, I bet if my dogs were applying more speed they wouldn't need quite as much bottom. Not knocking bottom in the least, just saying no animal can sprint as far as it can jog.

I like to have plenty of bottom but I know alot of guys that dont want it because they dont wanna trespass or stay out all night.

Must of been really really thick all up hill.
Bottom to me is how long a dog will run a hog before it gives up and I don't want them to give up until I cut them off or they have no more pads left of their feet that running 2 or 3 miles and turning around come back is a cull to me. If one of my cur dogs is cut up bad enough he can't go anymore I understand and glad I picked him up alive but one that gets a flesh wound better not be looking back. A bulldog better not give up until he takes his last breath. I don't expect a bulldog to run a 10 mile race but he better not realize he's done got in a jack and try to change his mind

How fast is a dog suppose to run if you have a Manual on how fast a dog should run when tracking and baying please post it and he was off the property for most of the time and we had two separate bays going on. Most terrain we hunt is thick so a sprint there not it took 45 min to bust 200 yards so the thing that sticks out to me is your assumption

Gee the post said he ran one for 6 miles and 21/2 hrs. I didnt see where it said he bayed several times. Lol
As far as bottom goes i try to only feed dogs that have tons of it. I want the option of calling a dog off of a race and not wishing i had a dog that will run one. But thats just how i like a dog.

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Tracking should be 6-8 mph in the thick stuff.
Baying should be 0 mph
;)

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Correct me if I am wrong Steve but my GPS said 18 miles and I know gritt put down a few more than that

Do you hunt cheetahs or dogs lol

Peach creek I'm with you I much rather have the option to have to go cut my dog off than him be coming back after a little sprint. The dog I got with the most bottom I can't call off or cut off he will go around me and get back on track I have to wait til he bays or pads are gone but I wouldn't have it any other way.

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/08/sypu8u5e.jpg)
Just a couple ole curs with runnin gear

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Nice dog I can see he can move but in the thick brush and creek bottoms we hunt that speed is cut way down bro but I like a little thicker dog that are very rough was just asking what people thoughts where on bottom not describing a hunt 

Man, forget it. I was trying to be and nice and give everybody the benefit of the doubt.
But it seems egos are still running wild.
Have fun y'all.

That is a good looking cur. We have places here where 3 miles a hour would be a smoking race. Have not seen many dogs who could flat out fly in Roso cane. As far as bottom, in my plots, I want them to stick as long as they can. Now there have been days when I wished they had less stick & more obedience.lol
  I really dont think you can blame a dog that quits if he has a life threatening injury . Not talking about bulldogs but there is a point where a dog gets busted up & self preservation takes over.

Yes I know the egos are bigger here than any where I have ever seen lol better get some taller boots

To throw a wrench in the discussion...what do y'all think about dogs adapting to running hogs???  I ask this because the other night I dropped my dogs ( 2 adults amd one pup) that are normally short range rough dogs.  We were roading them and they left out only a couple hundred yards in, when we cut them off they were 1.5 mi +.  Now I cuss them at times for not having the bottom I would like, but they are catchy...so it is a blessing at times.  We haven't been doing to hot here lately in the afternoons and it seems if we get on a gooden, he runs and runs.  It just got me to thinking, are my dogs realizing they are going to have to take a hog further to catch sometimes???

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Jason I think it was closer to 13miles but who cares...Ill leave to the know it alls to figure out all this complicated stuff.

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/08/du7ypaha.jpg)
No chest pounding here just the facts T bob. I ran out to the truck and grabbed the garmin just to see how the dog in the pic did today. (http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/08/epesaqa8.jpg)
Dog two is a year and a half old hill country dog. We were in some pretty open country today though.

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   I don't want a dog that has to go 2.5 hours to bay a hog.
   Sounds like unless you have a lot of land to hunt you must be a poaching sob. My places are decent sized and I always worry about the dogs getting off them but I think I am in the minority when it comes to that.

Hey Dwest I think your right most of my dogs are short range and rough but I have seen them push the envelope a few times I guess they been out ran few times and didn't like it so picked it up a bit this whole running a hog is new to me cuz my land sharks usely stop them before it gets to miles but don't think I like the whole run em till they stop idea I would just rather stop them

I hear ya!! As soon as i can find a dog that bays our running hogs without running them i will make the switch.

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I am with you centex

That average speed could be altered by roading, hauling, or etc.  I can promise you if that dog ran that speed for much more than an hour or so then he's doing a HELLVA job running that hog.  By the way did you catch the hog?  

caught six today on that hunt.. we roaded alright. Roaded around behind the dogs sticking hogs.

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And thats the way the cookie crumbles. I havent hunted with peaches but a handful of times but I know that fella knows what a good dog is.

I wont get into this discussion because in my opinion there is no right answer. The variations in everything from the terrain to the hog population to hunting pressure dictate how we hunt and that directly affects amount of bottom our dogs have/need to get it done.

Just my opinion of course

Sounds like you guys have some GREAT dogs I'd like to see them go if ya'll don't mind an Okie tagging along sometime!!!   I've been all over the country and seen some of the best go and sure would like an invite!!!  Never been to Texas but I hear the hogs are tough to find down there. 
 

That's why you don't see him posting them sorry spotted dogs anymore!!!!   >:D  :D

Praise the lord!!!  :angel:

X10

Dogs with alot of bottom equal a long night.. I love but hate my lil ginger dog because she will stay with a pig all night till it can't run no more.. And won't come off a bay for nothing so she forces you to go get her.. My cousin dog buster is the same way if u don't catch them at the bay they will be gone again the opposite direction from each other. People with never agree with each other that's why I don't argue with anyone I just state facts that work for me and that's all that matters in the end.

Thanks for the input fellas hey onocee you can run with us any time

Spotted dogs,find stop bay run and run,catch wen i tell them to,thats wat spotted dogs do around here,cant remeber the times we have turned out at sun down and bayed and caught hogs,all nite,and at sun up still baying and catching hogs,thats bottom,just me.them spotted dogs.

Sounds like good walker behind the wood shed to me...   ;)

Actually you would be proud Reuben... According to his previous posts its plott x ybmc x cat x MOUNTAIN CUR...  ;D

I just wish I owned a few dogs half as good as most posting on this thread, I'd be in high cotton from the sound of things!

I know that's right it's all jeber jabber on web site any way lol sounds like most of these fellas would cull my dogs but that's ok I like em

x2

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I like bottom on a dog like the no quit mentality but sometimes it don't help if your lookin for a short quick hunt. Lol or atleast that has been my experience so far.

10-4 on that...either go in the morning or if hunting at night need to be off the next day...but that is how I like them...of course I prefer shorter races but only if it is a caught hog and not that the dogs quit the hog...