Puppy Training

[Austesus]

Reuben, after I posted my reply on the previous thread I decided it would be better to make a new one to keep the other thread on topic.

I know there’s people that do less and people that do more. As previously stated I’m pretty much starting over now, and have two pups from good blood to work with. After recent events I’m even more thankful to have these two from Justin, because everything is riding on them now.

If you were to start pups with very little help from a grown dog, what would be your process start to finish, from the time they’re a pup until they’re a very heavy started dog consistently finding pigs, and what’s the reasoning behind each step. I’ve already got a plan somewhat laid out in my head and have talked with Justin since the pups came from his yard. But I love reading all the advice from others to pick and choose stuff to implement from everybody. This is focused more on the hunting aspect; showing them pigs, doing mock hunts, tests, etc... I’m not too much worried about the discipline type training for this thread. Personally I rather worry about the fine tune stuff after the dog proves itself.

At this point, I have not messed with the puppies other than petting them a little bit when I feed them, watching and observing them, and giving them a little bit of exposure. Unlike the other young dogs I raised, I am purposely distancing myself from these two in hopes that they will have no desire to hang around me once we start hunting. As far as teaching them commands other than to come, I will worry about that down the road. I don’t want to take the time to teach them sit, stay, lay down, tone training, etc. until they prove they make the cut to stay.


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[Reuben]

I remember you picking up the pups from Justin... I know it’s been a while back but don’t know how old they are...since you don’t have grown and trained hog dogs you will have to do a few mock hunts here and there with the pups...also they will have more confidence training and hunting together as pups...don’t burn them out on baying or catching...kind of like the kid who over indulged on ice cream he might not be as enthusiastic on his next gallon...so keep the pups wanting more...

Around the house I call the pups to me and pet them up but then I go about my business and the pups do their own thing...that is how I want it in the woods as well...

When the pups are old enough to hunt I would take them to the woods preferably where there is fresh hog sign and cast them...ignore pups and don’t call them to you unless it is time to go home...also, I would stage a couple times before heading to the woods to keep hog fresh in their minds...

The thing you really need to look out for is in making sure the pups will respect a good sized hog...if they are catching out on staged hunts (shoats)...this can be a recipe for a bad wreck in the woods on a big boar...they go straight in and catch out and they can be cut down before they know what happened...so hopefully you won’t make this mistake or they learn some respect on a big sow...

I am pretty sure Justin can tell you at what age these pups will start good in the woods and how they will hunt and what type of bottom they will have...that will be good info to have so you will have an idea as to what to expect...

Another thing...stay off the shock collar until the pups know the woods are a good thing and they have ran hogs a few times in the woods as a minimum...a friend of mine broke his pup from running deer the first few times in the woods and the pup was afraid to go back in the woods...we just need to be smarter than the dog...

I always hunt into the wind and crosswind and keep the probabilities of hog locations to be upwind from me...I also keep an eye on the dogs and if I think they are getting a whiff of hog scent now and then I will look the situation over and if I think the hogs are deep upwind I will move in that direction in hopes of helping the pups In picking up the scent and them going with it...good handling will bring out the best in your hunting dogs...

Hope this helps...

[Austesus]

Thanks Reuben, with Dum Dum and Thorn dying, I’ve been feeling really down about where to go from here. But I’m hoping these pups can get me going again. I reached out to Justin and got his advice before posting anything here since he knows these dogs better than anyone. I also had the pleasure of hunting behind his dogs when I went down to get the pups.

As of right now I’m planning on setting up some mock hunts, and then hunting some easier properties before going to the major leagues. I think it will do them better to have successful hunts in the beginning instead of taking them to my main property where I know they will probably get smoked. It’s hard hunting.

Is that something you would agree with? Would you typically try to get them on easier hunts to start with?


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[Reuben]

No doubt...easier is definitely better...they need to win as much as possible...this will only make them better hog dogs...

[Judge peel]

Y’all coming up with some good stuff. I do believe no such thing as enough training or handling. But I think in the end it don’t make that much difference to be honest. The biggest thing is you will know the dog better which ain’t a bad thing


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[t-dog]

That's good info Reuben. Pretty much my thoughts too. I didn't mention it but you did. I don't let my pups get bored or tired before I lead them away and I always exaggerate the praise.

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[Austesus]

I liked your post on the other thread T-dog, sounds like you and Reuben are very similar on the way you both train. And I won’t have them getting bored doing it, since I no longer have a pen to keep pigs, I will be killing the pig at the end of each mock hunt and cooking up some sausage lol. That way it should be very realistic for them (where I’m at we have to kill pigs, we absolutely can not catch and release or take alive).

On the mock hunts, are you tying the pig to a tree, putting it in a crate, or just letting it run loose once they’re finding them? And at what distance are you doing the mock hunts from the first hunt, to when they are basically hunting for real?


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[Reuben]

That's good info Reuben. Pretty much my thoughts too. I didn't mention it but you did. I don't let my pups get bored or tired before I lead them away and I always exaggerate the praise.

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Thanks T-dog...seems you and I are in agreement on most hog dog subjects...sometimes we say it in a different way from each other but the meanings are the same...

[Reuben]

Austesus...I’m having to go way back...lol

this is how we trained the pups to rig. We tied a pig in the woods between 50 and 75 yards in...I put up a small marker exactly where the wind coming from the pig crossed the path we were going to drive through later... I wanted to be 100 percent positive the pups were smelling pig if I needed to fire them up...we waited a little while and drove slowly around rigging the pups...then we drove by where scent was crossing the road and once I knew the pups could smell hog I fired them up if needed it...turned them loose and let them find and bay...if they circle close by then I would slowly move towards pig if needed...they usually don’t need help unless you stage the pig further in the woods...

The other mock hunts...of course deeper in the woods is always better so you can simulate a real hunt as much as possible...I would say a quarter mile is good but less is ok...you can tie the pig or tie a short rope to a rear foot with a weight on it and turn it loose...

Let your imagination be your guide...

I know it’s easy to say and do when you have the experience which is...do the right things at the right times and your dogs will be better for it...just keep that in mind and take full advantage of any opportunities that present themselves when hunting...well bred pups and dogs do not need much training...mostly they need guidance...

[t-dog]

I'm get off the soap box after this one. One of the big mistakes I see, especially with less experienced hunters is they try to think like people to train their dogs and hunt their dogs. You have to think like dog in order to get through to them.

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[Austesus]

Austesus...I’m having to go way back...lol

this is how we trained the pups to rig. We tied a pig in the woods between 50 and 75 yards in...I put up a small marker exactly where the wind coming from the pig crossed the path we were going to drive through later... I wanted to be 100 percent positive the pups were smelling pig if I needed to fire them up...we waited a little while and drove slowly around rigging the pups...then we drove by where scent was crossing the road and once I knew the pups could smell hog I fired them up if needed it...turned them loose and let them find and bay...if they circle close by then I would slowly move towards pig if needed...they usually don’t need help unless you stage the pig further in the woods...

The other mock hunts...of course deeper in the woods is always better so you can simulate a real hunt as much as possible...I would say a quarter mile is good but less is ok...you can tie the pig or tie a short rope to a rear foot with a weight on it and turn it loose...

Let your imagination be your guide...

I know it’s easy to say and do when you have the experience which is...do the right things at the right times and your dogs will be better for it...just keep that in mind and take full advantage of any opportunities that present themselves when hunting...well bred pups and dogs do not need much training...mostly they need guidance...

Great advice, how do you do about with progressing to harder mock hunts? Do you do several the same way and then make it slightly more difficult? Or is each hunt harder than the last? Let’s say I set up a mock hunt but the pups struggle with it for whatever reason, and I have to help them more than I wanted to. The next time, should I repeat the same difficulty, make it easier, or make it more challenging?

T-Dog, stay up on the soap box lol! This forum is an awesome opportunity for guys that have only been hunting for a few years to get some great advice from the older guys on here. I like hearing what everyone has to say. Some I agree with and some I don’t. But everyone has at least one bit of advice that can help others and people that are wise will listen to what everyone has to say and pick and choose what they want to use and how they want to use it.


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[Reuben]

It is hard to make it harder...you walk hunt your dogs so you decide how you want the pups to find the pig...

You can have quite a few staged hunts but I used 3 or 4 staged hunts for pups and young dogs...I just wanted them to get the idea that hogs are to be found in the woods when hunting...

[Austesus]

I guess what I mean when referring to making it harder, I mean something like this...

First time I want it easy and fast so they don’t quit the track, give up, or have to have me guide them too much. So let’s say I do a straight line drag, 150 yards through the woods. They find it and do everything as I hoped.

So then the second time, let’s say I make it 250 yards, but put a few turns and twists in the track when I drag it. They do okay, lose the track a few times, but end up finding it and completing it successful.

So for the third maybe I would do 300yds, but make the track much longer by having a lot of turns in it and have it go up and down a few hills so they really have to stay on it.

Then maybe on a fourth I make it much more difficult by crossing a creek with the track.


In my head that’s kind of what comes to mind when I think of progressing it to be more difficult each time out. After deer season ends I want to be hunting a lot. So between now and then I would like to do increasingly difficult mock hunts to get the pups as prepared as possible for the real deal. Kind of like T-dog said in his post, I want the dogs to think they’re hog dogs and not realize that I’ve been doing all this. I feel that if I do just one or two easy ones and then take them to hunt without my lead dog, they’re going to get smoked and not understand why the track is a lot harder for them to work. I don’t want to teach them to quit a hard track.


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[Reuben]

What you said is way better than what I said...it by far way better...I just know it will be some hard work...

On the other hand I look for pups that have it natural in them...some pups will take it and make it look easy without too much training...but the more scenarios the better for all pups...

Just like there are pups that take to it like a baby duck takes to water there are some that no matter how many tracks you feed them they will never click...

[Austesus]

I completely understand that. Even though they come from great blood and I’ve seen the parents and Uncle hunt, I also know not every dog makes the cut. I told Justin that if they don’t prove themselves I’ll just harass him for some more lol


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[t-dog]

I use one of two things. I have a small steel frame cage that I can put 30 or 40 pound shoat in or a piece of 4x4 square panel. I will take it out to the woods and set the cage out or wrap the panel around a couple of smaller trees. Say it's the first mock hunt for my pups. I will let them watch me drag the hog into the brush. Once he is untied and in the cage or panel, I go right back and immediately release the pups. That's about as simple as it gets. After they've bayed to my satisfaction I catch and exaggerate the praise and lead them out. I make each hunts difficultly according to how well they did on the previous one. You can make it harder in a lot of ways depending on what you have access to. I make it harder by laying longer tracks, or crossing water, or the amount of time that I allow the track to sit before I release them. I use the same area usually because it's what I have for convenience but I try to lay the track from a different direction each time. I usually finish it by  putting a pretty decent boar 100 to 150ish in the panel with feed and water and leave him for a couple days so that there is no track to push. Then I send them into the wind and wait. By this time they have hog on the brain when I release them. If for some reason they don't find it and start getting frustrated, I just ease in towards it little by little until they do.  Each hunt, except for the first couple, I snap the pups to trees and either hobble 2 legs or put a drag on one leg and release it for them to have a make shift race. This sounds like a lot of work because it is. I could make bigger steps and this family of dogs would be fine because they do have the natural instincts and brains. My thinking is this though. I know the minimum age they will be when I start taking them on live hunts. So that being said I have enough time to take the baby steps and have that much more confident of a pup when live hunt day rolls around. I split a litter of 4 once with a buddy. They were out of my family of dogs. Deal was I got a pup but I wanted 2. So he would give me the second pup if I took his 2 and started them along with mine. Both of those pups struck their own hog on their first hunts. The male actually winded off of the machine and he cut him loose and he went straight in and put up bay. They already thought they were hog dogs.

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[Austesus]

T-dog, that’s pretty much my goal. Due to my lead dog getting killed I’m limited what I can do with my grown dogs. His sister would pick up lead, but I’m now putting her up to save the blood. All that leaves me with is his sisters daughter Punk, and my Ladner Scooter. Scooter is only started. He’s close to 4 years old but I didn’t take him much because all my dogs except him will catch. He’s not a very rough dog and I was limited on collars so he didn’t get to go much. But he went enough that I feel he should be better than he is, so I focused on other dogs instead. The dog Punk is about 2, she’s been great so far. She has not found her own pig but she used to stick with Dum Dum and has not backed down from catching yet. She is only about 35-40lbs and does more damage to a hog than most dogs I’ve seen. So pretty much a solid RCD.

Where this comes in to play is the land that I hunt. I have several places but the main spot is 180k acres on the river, I hunt it for farmers. Tons of pigs but no vehicle access (not even four wheeler in most spots) and the pigs move like crazy. So I’m forced to walk hunt and I might have to walk 5 miles before I even find fresh sign, it’s a total guessing game as to where they are. Once you kill one, all the others will leave, they might move 10 miles down river. And they are god awful runners. I’ve seen some very good dogs come out there and get smoked, either by the distance/time the pigs will run, or because they will zig zag back and forth across the river. Some very nasty briar beds and swamps that are hard on dogs too. If I took them here I think I would be setting them up for failure. They would more than likely catch nothing and start to quit or trash because they’re bored.

I have a few easy spots to go but it’s either WMA that’s only a few days out the year, or it’s properties that are invite only as opposed to being able to go any time I want to. This is why I’m wanting to get them so good at these mock hunts. I hope that I can basically have them “hunting for real” by the end of it, and then take them to an easy property where they should definitely be able to run and stop some pigs. And then after all that I will try to take them to my other property. I fully expect the harder pigs to shake them, but I hope that after a few hunts there they will be able to figure out how to stop those educated hogs.

What is your opinion of using a grown dog with pups for the mock hunts? I planned on using scooter for the first one, to make sure they know what they’re supposed to be doing. But is there a reason it would be better to only take the two pups and just drop the pair of them with no help?


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[t-dog]

I don't use old dogs for the simple fact that I want them to be independent and thinking they have to do it because nobody else is gonna. They are young and most young dogs are gonna follow an older dog. That's nature in most every species. They aren't suppose to find ahead of an older dog. If they do you likely don't have a real good older dog. It might happen here and there but I mean consistently find ahead of them. I want them to hit the ground thinking let's go find ole porky not thinking ok let's see where old red is going. Don't ever think you gotta beg a dog to do it. If you do they are culls. If you have to get on your hands and knees to show them how to smell a track they are culls. That's what guys like Reuben, bigo, and the old man are talking about with the natural instincts. The  training is as much for my benefit as it is theirs. If I know they aren't going to make the grade, then they aren't occupying a spot on a hunt that another dog could be in that does have the potential. You have to be honest with yourself and not let pedigree or sentimental attachment blind you. If it's too hard to get them going and you don't see improvement or want to, then find something else. That old dog can't make them want to be lead dogs. That's why I leave no doubt on the first mock hunt about what's out in the woods by letting them see me drag the hog into the woods. If they aren't curious enough to go see what it was you were dragging or where it went no matter how much or how little hog exposure they have, then I'd bet you have a pretty bad problem already. This is one of those one those instincts that has to be there. I let my pups run and play in the water and run in the woods just to explore and learn to navigate and find their way back. I usually just set in a lawn chair until.they they get bored then its back to the yard or kennel depending on how old they are. If you have to keep calling them to you as you move closer towards the hog to get them there because they only want to get out of the woods and back to their comfort zone,  then you have a problem. I'm sure you understand what I'm getting at.

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[Austesus]

Thanks T-dog, that makes a lot of sense. As I do some mock hunts I’ll give updates on here to tell how they’re doing. Hopefully this thread can tell some other people as well


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[Austesus]

Well fellas, just got a call from my buddy that lives about 45 minutes from me and said he has two small pigs in the trap, about 15lbs. Gonna try to line schedules up to have my hunting buddy go get them tomorrow while I grab the pups after work and then we are gonna meet up where we are doing the mock hunt. Gonna try out your idea T-dog and drag them in the woods where the pups can see them. I think we will plant the first one about 150yds in the woods, with his back leg tied to a tree. And then put the second one about 150yds past that to let them relay on to him.


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