Puppy Training

[Reuben]

That’s awesome...keep us posted...

[Reuben]

Since the title is training pups...

There are a few things I have learned over the years...

I try never to give a command if I can not enforce it...I will ignore it if possible until the next opportunity...but with the red Ryder I can reach out and touch them and they will adhere to my command...I do not let my emotions go past the correction...the pups or dogs will learn you are ok with them and they will learn it is the correction you are after and they will understand that because that is how mama dog operates with her pups, they are familiar with that concept...this type of correction style will teach the pups to respect you yet they will not fear you just as they do with their mama...they have a healthy respect for her and when she speaks they listen and give her space...same with us...

Older dogs...seems a succession of threes with the red Ryder works best at certain times...and a succession of three “a-a-a’s” works best for verbal corrections...
The “a’s” sounds like the “a” when pronouncing “AT”...I went into detail on account this how I handle verbal corrections and that sound gets their attention...

Pups don’t get the Ryder and older dogs sometimes get it from a good distance...many will disagree but this way works for me...

Back to pups...I usually use the puppies hunger to my advantage during training sessions or just as opportunities while feeding and other times...

First example...

I used to feed puppies first before turning them out this way the kennels stayed clean longer...my logic was the pups will poop in the yard while playing...well the pups never wanted in the kennel after eating because it is more fun in the yard...so I called and they ran away from me and I had to catch each one...then after a while they got big enough and they learned they could outrun me...all negative things...I was getting frustrated and it seemed all was going south...also, they were starting to not trust me because of all the negativity...

Second example...

It occurred to me that I was going to live with a little more poop in the kennel between kennel washings...but I had to do something different...so started turning the puppies loose before feeding so they play and work up an even greater appetite...clean/wash kennels while puppies are playing and then feed pups...I called pups, rattled food bowl and they came running and they were jumping up and down on my legs begging for food...I petted them up, fed them and closed the gate behind me...that was easy...so then I thought... I can exaggerate my calling...call the same as I would call them out of the woods and clap my hands...that is training for the future...and as they come running I say kennel and give the hand signal...that is I unbelievable easy...the pups are getting familiar as to how I call the dogs out of the woods...they are also learning to come when called and learning to kennel with a hand signal as well...that is easy too easy...using their hunger and momentum to my advantage and it is all positive...promoting trust and minimizing situations that could possibly promote fear...

[Reuben]

Proper Consistency...


Sometimes we are sending mixed messages to the pups...we need to make sure we are consistent with our puppy training...

Scenario 1...

We want the pups to not be nuisance barking so we constantly get on to them...but then we get up in the morning and the pups are barking when they see you...and you walk up and pet them and talk to them as they bark...so every time you step out the back door they will bark as you try quiet them down...
You step out and you go to them so they quiet down...so now they think they have trained you to come when they bark...and when you drive up from work they know the sound of your truck and they will go to barking and you hurry to the back to quiet them down...that is more negative reinforcement...

Scenario 2...

You step out the back door and pups bark...I ignore them and walk to my garage and go about my business...if they are barking and I need to go to them I wait until they quit barking for a few minutes before I step out and go to them...I don’t want them to associate them barking to get me over to them... I on purpose set up a scenario once in their kennel so they can bark and I give the command to stop and spray water on them until they stop barking and repeat until they stop before I turn in...

Once they are older the red Ryder will assist and sometimes Garmin bark collars...but doing it this way really helps I just wish I knew a better way...where I live I can’t have barking issues...

[Austesus]

Great info Reuben. I also learned to teach my woods call a little easier with Justin’s pups. My other dogs I taught to come when I gave the command “come” or “here”, with the new pups I started them from day one by calling “yo yo yo” the same way I call them from hunting. I inflict my voice almost like a yodel, not really sure how to describe it but it carries far in the woods and works well. I started teaching the pups by calling it out when I was going to feed them. Now they run over excited anytime I do it.

The barking is one thing that I have a hard time with. My dogs are in kennels so I can not use a red Ryder, anytime I’m around the kennels they raise cane. I used to holler at them and they would somewhat listen but with no real way to enforce anything with them inside the kennels, I’ve gotten to where I just pay them no attention.


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[Austesus]

Also I sort of implemented part of what you do the other day with a hog head. I realized I had a whole 25lb pig in the freezer I forgot about. I pulled it out and chopped it up to give the dogs. I normally give them the whole pig, all cut up with an axe. That day I decided to just give them meat and none of the organs. In the past I never gave the head but instead of giving my female pup cut up meat, I gave her the head with some neck still on it. She didn’t mess with the actual head much but by the next day she did eat most of the neck off. My hope is that it will predispose her to be rough on the head of a hog. My dog Punk was fed a lot more pig ears then any of my other dogs and she’s by far the most destructive to a pig. Idk if it’s a coincidence or not but I have pictures from her first few pigs where she tore their entire face to pieces by the time I got there. If you hunt to release or to tie I suppose this would be a bad trait. But hunting to kill them for farmers, this is good to me. If all my dogs do that, that pig isn’t going anywhere and is less likely to hurt a dog if it’s being killed instead of just being held


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[t-dog]

Austesus, I don't like to see a chewed up head. The reason being is this. What had to happen for that head to get chewed up? Naturally the dog had to bite the hog. If the dog holds that then it has control of the hog, but its constantly regripping, or moving from spot to spot the dog isn't controlling the head. If it's not controlling the head and still chewing the head up, then the hog is being given extra chances to do damage to that dog or any others that are helping thinking that the dog on the head is in control. Chewing, regripping, or moving around will also get ears pulled off or chewed off, and then a bad hog has the upper hand. The further away you are from the situation the more damage the dogs are taking because of this. If my dog catches then it better commit whole heartedly or get back. I want one bite mark on the ear and at the base. Of course they my have to get a deeper bite from time to time, the hog isn't going to pose and allow them to get comfortable but there is a difference in that and always regripping or chewing. A lot of dogs will chew on smaller hogs that can't put any pressure on the dog or that the dog doesn't feel threatened by. I've seen a lot of dogs cut and some ruined and killed by "caught" hogs. This style I'm speaking of and then inability to control a hog are the 2 leading reasons for it. It doesn't usually happen to a prospect or dud. It will be your #1 that it happens to. JMO

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[Austesus]

T-dog, I think it’s because I typically run 5-6 dogs on the ground, and they all catch. So with all of them grabbing and pulling in different directions the pig is getting strung out. I have some that will get a solid hold on the ear, I think with them holding that dog literally tries to eat the pigs head. I know what you’re saying about re-gripping, I think it applies a lot more if you’re running less catch dogs too though


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[Reuben]

I use a hog head with the meat of the neck on...
Before feeding pups their morning meal throw the head in the middle of the yard and turn the pups loose and they will go to it and all will pile up and eat...I don’t let them over eat...I want them to want more when I pull them off...they will be between 5 and 6 weeks old...

The next time I tie a line to a hog head and then I drag it on the run so they give chase...again I let them feed on it for a little while...

The idea behind these exercises is to instill hog in their minds...

[Reuben]

Breaking to gun fire...

I don’t totally break the pups to gunfire but it can be done very easily...

Get the pups used to your calling them to you at 9 or 10 weeks...

Step out the back door about a week before breaking them to gunfire and call the pups to you and give them all a piece of meat...

In a few days repeat calling them and give treat to each of them again...they will be jumping up and down wanting more treats...

The third time...call them as usual and as they run to you fire a cap pistol once...watch them close to ensure all Pups are ok with the bang...

Repeat next day and if ok with first shot fire again...maybe even three times...if pups are ok give them their treats...

Repeat the next day and but now also fire in their mist and pet them up really good...the gunpowder is strong amongst them and a quick petting for the ones that shied a little...but most of the pups don’t have gunfire on their minds...they have getting a treat on their minds...

This is not total gun breaking but it is a good start...if I shoot over the dogs they won’t quit hunting and they won’t run to the truck...

If I really wanted to totally gun break them I would repeat in 3 or 4 weeks...just watch the pups and adjust according to their reactions...

[l.h.cracker]

Also I sort of implemented part of what you do the other day with a hog head. I realized I had a whole 25lb pig in the freezer I forgot about. I pulled it out and chopped it up to give the dogs. I normally give them the whole pig, all cut up with an axe. That day I decided to just give them meat and none of the organs. In the past I never gave the head but instead of giving my female pup cut up meat, I gave her the head with some neck still on it. She didn’t mess with the actual head much but by the next day she did eat most of the neck off. My hope is that it will predispose her to be rough on the head of a hog. My dog Punk was fed a lot more pig ears then any of my other dogs and she’s by far the most destructive to a pig. Idk if it’s a coincidence or not but I have pictures from her first few pigs where she tore their entire face to pieces by the time I got there. If you hunt to release or to tie I suppose this would be a bad trait. But hunting to kill them for farmers, this is good to me. If all my dogs do that, that pig isn’t going anywhere and is less likely to hurt a dog if it’s being killed instead of just being held

I'm sorry but this is the silliest thing I've ever heard.
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[Austesus]

Lh cracker, which part? It seems to work well for me. It could be a coincidence with the ears, but that dog is by far more destructive to a pig than my others. I have pictures to show it but I won’t upload those ones for public view.

Or if you’re talking about T-dogs point of not holding one solid grip, I haven’t had issues with it with the amount of dogs I was running. They clicked well together. Now I’ll be the first to say it’s pretty rare for me to catch big teeth, but I have caught some and I’ve never had a dog cut down bad. But, as we all know it only takes one time for something to happen.


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[Austesus]

So I did the mock hunt with a few buddies yesterday morning. Not as well as I wanted it to go but I think it was a good start. First pig was 115yds from the truck, second was about 150yds past that. The pups were smelling out the track but wouldn’t go far and would come back like they weren’t quite sure what I wanted them to do. I had to walk them in pretty close and they hated the first one for a few minutes. Definitely still seemed uneasy after the other experience with a pig had scared them. Well they got tighter and tighter and caught out. Go that pig put up, came back to the dogs and walked them back towards the other pig for 30ft so they wouldn’t immediately run back to where we carried the other pig off.

Same thing, they weren’t tracking as well as I hoped but caught out immediately. I grabbed my male Hopper and leashed him. That left my female and my buddies female on the pig, they backed up and were baying. Hopper is definitely the one controlling the catch aspect. After letting them bay for a minute we grabbed them and turned the pig loose and let them run him down. Then did the same with the first pig.

It ended much better than it started. After a few more times I think they’ll be doing much better. They definitely wanted the pigs after they caught the first time, they just have to figure out how to use their noses to line it out.


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[Reuben]

Sounds like they did very well...

If they aren’t taking the track when starting the pits on your next mock hunt walk slowly and retrace your steps from the beginning...go slow and encourage the...this should help

[Reuben]

Sounds like they did very well...

If they aren’t taking the track when starting the pups on your next mock hunt walk slowly and retrace your steps from the beginning...go slow and encourage them...this should help

[Judge peel]

Good stuff. They ain’t running up to the pig because they don’t know that’s what to do yet. I guarantee they smell it. If your in ? On what to do do nothing other then let them out where you set the hog don’t walk them to the hog you think your helping but your not. Get a bottle of hog piss pour on a rag and drag that to the hog. Just let them out by the drag at what ever distance turn them loose and just sit and wait no matter hog long it takes. It truly will make a difference.

[Austesus]

Thanks guys. They definitely smelled it, since the pigs were small, me and buddy both held a pig by the backlegs and dragged them, so there was a good track for them. They had their noses all in it but they just seemed like they weren’t sure what I wanted from them. They would go about 20-40 yards and then come back and kept doing it over and over again. So we would slowly walk forward 10-15 feet and wait. We did this repetitively until we were about 30 yards from the first pig and then they found it. Once they started baying I was encouraging them and coaxing them. They were definitely looking at it like a threat after the one other time they saw a pig in a pen a while back and it ran them over. Once they got close they started really chopping in his face and then my male hammered him.

At this point I was really excited and thought they’d run straight to the second pig. This time they definitely did seem like they were trying to hunt a little harder, but again I had to slowly walk them pretty close to it. Hopper caught right off the bat, then my buddy’s female pup he got from my litter a while back caught with him. Hopper definitely was the one initiating the catch so I leashed him to a tree and let the two females work the pig. My female didn’t seem to have much interest. I’m hoping she’s just a little slow to start. I don’t have other dogs to put time in right now so I will give her plenty of opportunity before I give up on her. My male is looking good. Next we turned that pig loose and they ran him down quick. Did that again and gave him too much time and they lost him.

We went back to the first pig and turned it loose and they gave him a good chase for about 80 yards then stopped him. I really think the switch flipped for my male. I’m hoping the next mock hunt I won’t have to guide them as much. By the end he for sure wanted pig, he caught very hard with a deep bite, exactly what I’m wanting.


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[Goose87]

Briefly skimmed through the post and one thing I didn’t see and maybe could’ve over looked, teach them how to use their nose first and what exactly that thing with two holes on the end of their snout is there for, from about 8-10 weeks on until it becomes a problem I walk my pups just about each night and shine rabbits, once I spot one I just ease on over that way not saying a word or giving any sort of body language once I get to where I saw the rabbit or saw where it entered the woods I just hang out and observe, first week or so may not seem productive but once pup starts putting it all together and letting their nose become their eyes things seem much easier when the real time comes, whether it be on a hunt or in a mock hunt, by now the pup already has the basic concepts of how follow a scent trail, and is not being bombarded with all sorts of new things all at once, I never do any mock hunts per say, I’m fortunate enough to let my pups run loose and will bay them in a pen some but once they take a liking to running game they go on a chain or kennel and big boy school starts, I’ve not done it consistently but enough to see good enough results that it’s becoming routine with each set of pups, I wrap a deer leg if available in hot wire and sporadically place it around the yard and let them green break themselves, take the pups to feeders where the hogs have been but not real recent and let them introduce themselves to hog scent in their own time and accord, I use to think by raising pups in and around the house and building and friendship and bonding with them I was ruining them, that’s NONSENSE, I just wasn’t dealing with good stock to begin with, yes it can be over done and hinder performance but that’s usually a handler error by always calling the pups back as soon as they get a little distance which conditions the pups to never leave very far past that recall boundary, if the genetics are there to begin with then Mother Nature will take over regardless, in the meantime you and the dog know each other better and have built a trust, which later on down the road will pay dividends...

[Austesus]

Great advice Goose. As far as using the nose I was talking about that after me and my buddy finished with the mock hunt and as I started thinking about it I realized that a lot of the guys with early starting pups probably let them run loose. I don’t say that to make any excuses for what they did or didn’t do, but if a pup runs loose it only makes sense that he has taught himself to use his nose around the house. All of mine stay in kennels unless they’re hunting.

I also like the idea of wrapping deer legs in hot wire. I’ve personally seen dogs that were shocked too much to trash break them and now they will not hunt with a collar that has prongs. They will sit right at your feet unless you swap the collar out. I’m not sure how much of it is the dog and how much is the person but I do think some dogs can’t mentally handle being shocked to the extent some people do it. One of the guys that I no longer hunt with was like that, he would shock his dogs for any and everything with no real thought behind it. The only time I’ve really used it is for tone training. My Dum Dum dog was the only one that I really tone trained but he knew that after a series of 3 beeps he got shocked if he wasn’t heading back towards me. This was really helpful around water. Sometimes he would cross water and not want to cross back so I used the tone one time and as soon I did he dived right in to avoid the shock lol.

On the part about bringing the pups in and around the house... with the two I have now I changed my approach and decided to try to not mess with them outside of feeding (all my other dogs have been house broken and raised inside). It has worked in the sense that they don’t seem to spend as much time focusing on me, but I quickly realized there’s a fine line with this when I went to put collars on them the first time and they thought I was trying to murder them since I hadn’t handled them like that before.


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[t-dog]

Austesus it's a big deal to let them explore for a lot of reasons. If they have it they have it but that one thing sure can make it easier. I like to pull out a chair or drop the tailgate and sit. I stay there and I let them go do their thing and come back  and do it all again. Every now and then one will get lost and bark lost. I'll give him a call if another pup hasn't gone and intercepted him after a couple barks. Then when it gets back to me I just sit and let it continue on. I try to pay attention to how long they leave out for. Sometimes my pups will get out too far. If they leave for 20 minutes and I can't hear any activity I will call them. I'll pet them a little then back to ignoring them. You can't put go in them but you can feel their range in. My buddy had the same blood as I do. His dogs weren't anywhere near as rangy as mine and it was all because of the way he hunted. He walk hunted. His walk was as fast as a lot of people's jog lol. This along with he was always calling them back into him shortened their range because they were as concerned about what he gonna do as hunting. He rarely just stopped and let them hunt. If he turned them out at his house and just let them run while he worked around the house, he more times than not had to make the mile and a half trip down to the creek and kill what they had bayed.

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[Austesus]

T-Dog,
I think I’ll start doing that some more outside of doing mock hunts. I can’t do it at my house because of the close roads and I don’t want them going in to neighbors yards (I only have 3.5 acres)... but my buddy that is helping me out by providing the pigs for the mock hunts has a lease about 45-50 minutes from me. I’m the only person he lets hog hunt in there, other than that he just has two members that pay him annually to still hunt for deer. I could go there and drive in one of the roads and just hangout on the tail gate for a while to let them wander off. My only concern is if they actually do stumble on a pig, he doesn’t have any big teeth that we’ve seen there but there are two sounders on the property and I wouldn’t want the pups to get in the sounder inexperienced and get ran over by a few sows. I may do it and take my slightly older dog Punk. That way if they do, she will at least be there to help catch the pig. I suppose it would help her with learning to range out as well. She will go to 300-400 yards but as far as I know she’s never struck a pig, just stuck with lead dog as a RCD. When she goes out I honestly don’t know if she’s hunting or just screwing around


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