EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

I have throughout the years had plenty of prospect hogdogs not make the grade on multiple training levels.  I have noticed a very high percentage of these dogs to be salvaged into top notch cowdogs. The question being to you prefer to cull completely or attempt to see if the failed prospect will flourish in a new line of baydog.

Do not misunderstand my point of view on culling a complete non working product

I stay the same.....If they don't work they don't eat my feed or anyone elses for that matter. The product has to work or it is not a" Working Dog"  

Let's here what works for you

Enjoy

x2 100%  but I try diffrent game far as bears or bobcats or send to some one that can try them on cows since I not in that line of work these days

YBM I AINT TO WORRY IF THESE PUPS DONT TURN OUT HOG DOGS CAUSE THE COME FROM A LINE OF COWDOGS MY MALE DOG FOUND A HERD A CATTLE WHEN HE WAS A PUP BUT A LIL WHOPPING HE TURN INTO A HELL OF A HOG DOG

Cull -  To me a BMC should shine at both as well as guarding my family and stuff. I am breeding for a all around " Working Dog " like they were intended to be, maybe I'll cull some dogs that would be good at one thing or another, but I'm not trying to raise " good " dogs I'm trying to raise " great dogs " and if they eat my diamond dog feed there gonna be above average all around or there culled.

Waylon, 

I have a question based on your comments, no disrespect meant...Please explain "all around working dog" are you saying that your dogs will excel at all disciplines?  Cows, hogs, guard dogs, bloodtracking, squirrels, etc or do you mean disciplines within what that particular breed was bred for?  I breed for one particular discipline, blood tracking. Can my dogs hunt and find pigs...sure, but if I don't care if they make mediocre hog dogs per my standards.

Jerryg

I don't own any blackmouth curdogs, but the curs I feed are used to work both, cattle and hogs.

I would think it impossible to breed a top-notch all around dog that excels at any given task.  Reason being, what is desired in one task might be unnecessary in another.  For instance...pen dogs are bred to work tight and close...a trait not so much desired in woods dogs.  Perhaps cow dogs are not bred specifically with so much hunting drive.

In a perfect world, I too would like to breed all around working dogs but I'm sure not going to start culling my hog dog pups because they won't tree.

I see your point YBM...perhaps some of the pups that don't make the cut due to lack of hunting drive could end up making nice cow dogs.  The problem as I see it is that same dog gets in the wrong hands and someone starts trying to breed the hog dogs carrying your name.

Waylon, I would rather have a dog that is great at one thing instead of being decent at all things. I believe it is impossible to breed a dog that is great at all disciplines. As stated before some things that are wanted out of a pen dog is not desirable in a woods dog and certain traits you want in a hog dog may not be what you want in a cowdog. I also think that if you made the breeding you should also find where the pups fit in or work the best. Some will not work out at all but others will be great just maybe not at the discipline you expected. If they don't work as hog dogs then try them on cows if bred for cows and are too rough then put them on hogs. JMO

Without a doubt I agree more than 100% with your point about falling into the wrong hands. Guess I should have explained my own perspective.  I like to see very few get to try their luck on cows off my dogs.  If they do work exceptionally for that purpose they go to family members or close friends that work cattle and have the understanding that if they don't turn out for them they are no longer working dogs. CULL or I will do it for them.

The other issue I believe the closest thing I can relate to is what I call a meat dog. One that basically does it all. Bays cows, hogs, trees and runs everthing in the woods. I had one long time back. Great dog on everything I used her for but the saying "Jacks of all trades and Masters of none" I believe fits best.

x2 lots of cow dogs have been culled as hog dogs because they don't have the hunt to make hog dogs... was not required as a pasture cow dog trait. Matter of fact if the dog ranged out to the next ranchers herd it was a cull because it did not work closely with the cowboy working the herd.

I am not saying that some of these dogs won't work as hog dogs but they were selected for cow work and not for hog hunting.

I have seen some squirrel bred dogs that make awesome hog dogs. I guess if the dog gets excited for a small rodent in a tree that sometimes he can't see then he will go nuts on a hog. The question here...does the dog have the bottom to run a hog for 3 or 4 hours???

I guess what I'm saying is this. My dogs better make top cow dogs if I use them on cattle, If I use them on hogs they better stand out there as well, no so so dogs, they better be good at it. If like my Lana dog they do both they better be above average at both, as far as protecting my house the same Hog- Cow hog/cow dogs better dang sure bite you if you walk into my yard with out me or my wife around.  In short I am breeding a dog that strives 100% to please me and do what it knows I want, This dog better make people stand up and make folks pay attention when he/she is at work. If they don't I'll cull them, maybe I expect to much, but if the dogs I raise are not above average at all given task I won't feed them. Simply put I won't feed a dog that is not good enough to breed and i won't breed a dog that is not above average all around at the jobs I give it.

Also I don't blood trail, or chase tree rats or man track or what ever but If I did i would expect these yeller dogs to be good at there job, if not I'd fire them quick  ;)

I am very particular with what I breed, I want a dog that excels at bloodtracking....they may be ok at hogs, cattle, etc. and thats fine by me, but they will only be given to certain individuals who will work them at other diciplins.  As some have stated, if they dont work, they get culled.  I want certain traits that may not be condusive to the guy hog hunting or looking for cattle.  The way I see it, the better my dogs, the higher my success rate when tracking wounded deer.  If my dogs are better than the next guy offering the service, well, I guess I will get called more often....same goes with folks utilizing dogs for finding cattle, hogs, etc.  If you have and breed all around dogs who "excel" at different diciplins I commend you.  I dont have those dogs, as that is not my overall goal.  

There are breeds who promote "all around dogs", I have yet to see an all around dog from that particular breed!  Maybe one day I will, and that is that I spent alot of time working and looking for one... ;)

I guess in the end it all depends on opinion, someone may see a great dog in their blood tracking dog, where I only see an average dog. And yes, my dogs are average when it comes to others dogs..I seen it!! But every breeding I make, will be for the betterment of my dogs.    

Jerryg

Cow dogs in my country had better have as much hunting range as any ones hog dogs. A good handler can and will control the range of his dogs while hunting for cattle so I have never understood the adage that cow dogs are short range or lack hunt because in a quality cow dog that simply is not true. Are there short range cow dogs with not much hunt, I am sure there are but they are culls in my book.

I raise dogs to do both jobs and they have got to be darn good at both to stay here. The job description for a cow dog is much more difficult than being a hog dog. So I find the opposite to be true, a dog that can't quite make the grade as a cow dog might make someone else a very nice hog dog. I will not keep a dog let alone breed a dog that is not gifted at both cattle work and hog hunting. But the cow dog job is the tuffer of the two and harder to produce.

 " I believe it is impossible to breed a dog that is great at all disciplines "

 " I would think it impossible to breed a top-notch all around dog that excels at any given task. "

Well Sir's I respectfully disagree 100%, The men who trusted on the early BMC ( or Catahoulas for that fact ) demanded much to help them survive rough unsettled country and wouldn't/couldn't keep one string of cow dogs, one set of guard dogs, one set of tree dogs, one set of hog dogs ect. They kept very few dogs and those few were required to excel at many given task, perhaps we have lost sight of that and have bred the dogs down instead of up? In fact I'm sure of that. Perhaps I live in a fairy tale world where I expect my FEW dogs to perform above average at any given task I set before them, but I have seen that type of dog it came in a yellow package and made me a believer. I sound puffed up I'm sure and I might be, but once you have seen the bar set high it's hard for me to settle for a " Me to " dog. But my friends all say I'm to picky and expect to much from my dogs to so maybe your right, I'm trying to produce " Old Yeller " here on the double hub cap ranch and won't settle for less than that, when I reach that point in my own dogs and some day I will, I plan to reset the bar higher and carry on from there, if not I should not be breeding dog IMO.

God Bless, Waylon

I agree that dogs at one time dogs "had" to work and earn their keep, whether it was finding hogs, catching rabbits, finding wounded deer, or finding cattle.  Familes depended on dogs to live.  Now we drive to HEB or the local grocery store to buy food....dogs are not a necessity, as they were at one time. Why feed 4 dogs when only one was a great dog that helped the family eat.  It was feed the other 3 or feed the family.  Natural selection, cull the worthless three dogs.   I dont think there are "many" folks who now depend on dogs to live.  Maybe modernization/technology has changed the way we breed dogs.  Seems folks have adapted to one or more areas or specialties and now breed the dogs to adapt to us......  

Jerryg

On the reverse aspect of what this topic is based around. I have observed and owned several complete cow dog failures.  Meaning wont bay cows if their life depended on it with 0 interest. Cross them over and were a complete no hesitation fireball with a deep burning drive to bay,hunt,and work hogs that appeared to be completely of natural talent. 

This is the explanation I guess I am trying to convey on either direction you are coming from. 

I have personally never had a hesitation in trialing a what's described as a cowdog cull until he has been scrubbed as a hogdog cull by my own hand. Most of mine naturally work both and have to be broken off one unless you desire both talents.  But again I have heavy roots originally of cowdog stock. 

Interesting views from all so far.

x2...the old time mtn cur was developed and used as the all around dog but I have seen so many that do not look like curs any more. so many look like fiest dogs and at one time they looked more like plot curs.

Back in 1989 I started breeding mtn curs that treed coon and squirrel and ran bear but I used them for hog only. I am sure that over the years some would tree but did not test for it. I do know I had to break them off of cows...


I know a man that has raised yellow cow dogs for 40 years or so and he calls his dogs in and out by name when baying cows but I wouldn't feed one as a hog dog. I have seen enough cow dogs that I wouldn't feed for hog dogs.

A cur dog should wind long range and have a good nose and hunt 2-6 hundred yard circles around me and find hogs that other dogs miss and then run the hog for hours if needed and I am talking about get in the thick stuff to bay a hog. If you breed cow dogs that can do that then I want on the list... :) I see hogs get in some thick and large briar patches and the average hog dog will quit and look elsewhere.

Waylon,  I am gonna back you up on this fight I have seen and have had dogs that are excellent at both cows and hogs, but I have no cows and no need to run cow dogs,so I choose to break them off of cows, but as said by my long time friend above ybm his line of dogs have a passion to except both rolls as hog dogs or cow dogs or both but we choose to break them off of cows, I have also seen this line of dogs not look twice at a cow and be eaten up with baying hogs, as alot of you no my line of dogs came from Myles ( yellow black mask ) and I am a strong believer in his line because it has been and does prove its self.
All I am saying is that waylon in my books is right with the right line of dog you can do all.

And to reuben I don't no how much cow hunting you have done but around here we have guys that get payed good money to go find wild or stray cows and trust me thay have grate dogs that go along way through some rough stuff and the dogs do not quit because the going gets tough. And thay also go into thick brush and brier patches even ponds (or tanks to some people ) and trust me a long horn cow that has turned wild and is 900 lbs and ain't seen anyone in a year or ever can be very deadly.

And to ybm I would cull before I sold one knowing it was not gonna be a dog and if I couldn't get one broken off cows yes would let it go for a cow dog. But I cull if there on my yard and don't work a hog im not in the cow dog businesses.

First I will say that I do not know much about cow dogs but have heard alot about the cow dogs you are talking about. Where I am from we do not need the kind of dogs you are talking about. I am sure we have places around here that need that kind of cow dog but I would venture to say it would not be very often. The majority of cow dogs around here are to gather up cows in a open pasture and then herd and guide them to a corral. But for sure I am no expert on on cow dog work but have made some observations and assumptions(Key Word ;D). I do know there are some big ranches in west, south, and Central Texas and even east Texas where I can see needing the type of cow dog you are talking about. There is no doubt in my mind that that type of cow dog would make a hog dog...

And for Waylon, I commend you in that you are trying to breed the ultimate BMC. Yes you are right in that you have to be hard nosed about culling and you must have a clear goal as to what you will breed and select for. Otherwise, you would be pi!!ing in the dark.

Starting out with the best possible dogs is very important as well as selecting correctly from the pups.

The bottom line is that yes you can breed a dog that is all around but I would breed for hogs first and cows second or vise versa. It just depends on if I were primarily working cows or just hog hunting.


I do know that Randy Wright breeds for the all around dog. If everyone who buys his line of dogs followed his methods then the majority of those Ben dogs would be top all around dogs. The problem is that when someone gets a pup that is a cull they breed it because it is a ben bred dog and they will get there money back and then some, thus, there goes the line of dogs that Randy has culled hard for.

One of my hunting buddies dad raises quite a few PBR bulls, and he just traded Randy a few bulls for quite a few dogs....
Included in this deal was a "STUD" dog, a "BROOD" bitch

According to him, the Stud and the Brood have had no type of hunting experience... So why are they being used for breeding?
They may be out of proven lines, but neither have proved themselves...

If hes breeding dogs with no experience, exactly how "proven" is his line??

That easy, his line is 100% proven.....  It's proven to make $$$$$

Exactly!!! 

Most of these big breeders are breeding for papers and looks, which is worthless in the woods, besides having a good looking dog under your feet....  ;)

I forgot to mention that a young well started cowdog was included in the deal, and he wont even look at a cow..  ???
I wonder if he is out of the Stud or Brood they got??  I may have to look into this alittle more...

Once again,…. No disrespect to anyone:

We all breed for different objectives; I guess I have always had an issue with the term “All around Dog”.  In my opinion, if I state I have an all around dog in the ranching environment, then that dog should be able to perform and excel at any given task within that environment, if you do not do blood tracking or tree squirrels, hunt rabbits, tree coons, then I don’t think you can claim that you have an all around dog, ….and remember, this is one dog performing and “excelling” at these different tasks……… not this dog hunts hogs and this dog finds cows and this dog blood trails…breeding and consistently  producing  dogs that are excelling at all disciplines. 
OR
Is the term “All around Dog” breed specific?
I don’t want a dog that is good at many disciplines, I want a dog that is great at one discipline….maybe I have screwed up breeding this way, but it’s what “I“need.   

Jerryg

Is it deer season yet...I need to put some dogs on some wounded deer and get off the computer... ;D

Jerryg

Some people want a "Jack of all trades, master of none" type dog, while others want them to excel at a given job.


I personally do not believe there is a dog born than can excel at all things cur dogs are used for.   Sure some may be great hog/cow dogs, but lack in the blood trailing aspect, or maybe they aren't worth a flip in a pen...


I'd rather have a jack of all trades, but it's because I don't want to have 30 dogs on the yard.  We have a dog that can pen cattle, work sheep, bay hogs, and trail deer. She's not great at any of the above, but she does all well enough to earn her keep... I think that's the type of dog the old timers had too.

I think if you have a dog that is excellent at hog/cattle, you could teach them to run a blood trail pretty easy. They may not be the best at it but they can get the job done. I like the jack of all trades dogs because I cant afford nor do I have room for a ton of dogs. But my dogs will be masters at catching hogs. Hopefully one day I will have some dogs that are masters at hogs and cattle, then can do whatever else I might need them to do, like blood trail. I got a buddy that his first hog dog is now 10 yo and he retired him and trained him as a blood trail dog and he is an excellent dog on blood trailing and could still be an excellent hog dog if need be.

I have been out with Paul, Silverton Boar Dogs, and watched his dogs (even the young year old dogs) go out and work cattle, and they are masters at it. He can call them out by name, and they are excellent at their job. Then we take those same dogs hog hunting and they are 500 + yards out and dont touch a cow.

It takes a dog with true brain to be able to be a master at two + trades, but it also takes one heck of a handler. Someone who spends every day with their dogs, and someone who culls hard. Im not saying that a great handler can take any ol dog and make them a master at cow and hog with a great handle on them too. But the right dogs with the right person can do some amazing things.

I do personally think it is easier to make a good hog dog than a good cow dog. But I also think that when it comes to stopping and baying a hog, sounder, stray cow, or herd of cattle, the technique is interchangeable. Working wild cattle will make working a hog easy for a dog.

I agree that handle is everything when trying to work cattle or hogs with the same dogs.

Here is a thought....

Back in the days when people were using dogs to help survive, they werent looking for a bmc or cat that would find hogs or bay cows...Pure bred dogs with papers were no where in their minds at that time....
How many of their dogs do you think they used on just hogs, cows, squirrels, etc..???
What ever that dog went out and found/caught was usually dinner... trash breaking was no concern and would hinder what they needed/expected out of the dog....

In todays world, we dont rely on dogs as they did back then. And breed, papers, color, size, etc. are more sought after than drive, range, bottom for many buyers/breeders... Therfore, todays dogs are a hell of alot better looking, but the drive and hunt has been lost in most of them   :-\

When I was a kid in the 60's we didn't have pure bred dogs but every dog we had earned its keep because if it wanted to eat it had to catch game. They weren't specialty dogs but they were trained in the way of the ranch and farm life. I could herd the cows with then and chase the neighbors hogs out the fields and blood trail wounded deer for us. and kill coons an possums that tried to get in the chicken coop at night etc. etc.. Killed tons of rats in the barn with them that were eating our grain.

bayed hard hog dogs- Thanks I was starting to think I was a one legged man in but kicking contest  ;D

I don't think I have the type of dog I am talking about  YET, but I know I am close enough with my dogs to make it happen one day, It don't bother me if other folks think it can't be done or that it is out of reach. If that type of dog as easy to find we wouldn't be talking about it right now, I ain't scared to cull, ain't scared of hard work and am not blind to my dogs faults. But that type of " Old Yeller " dog is what I'm after, it's my goal and I won't be knocked off course by discouragement.

I know an old man from right here in Oklahoma who told me he once started 3 litters of pup's all born around the same time from one male and 3 different gyps, there were near 30 pups at the beginning of the summer, by a year old he had culled all but 4, by 2 years old he had 3 left. He said " you are gonna have to leave your heart in the house and keep a sharp axe if your gonna raise good head dogs "

I respect all opinions expressed here and am not arguing with any one or there way of doing things, but I believe if your gonna have dogs that are better than the next man's then your gonna have to cull harder, work harder, hunt more and spend more time with your dogs than the next guy will. Oh and pray for a lot of guidance cause I'm to dumb to do it on my own  :angel:

I know down here in FL alot of Cow dog culls are used for hog hunting. Most of them are real rough medium range curs from whats left of old stock. Alot of ranches will not part with there dogs or puppys for any amount of money. If your lucky they may Stud a male out to a friend or close partner. Im by no means a Cow dog expert but I grew up in Central and South FL where cattle and ranching is popular and have great respect for a good Cow dog. Most I have seen will work cattle or a hog but tend to prefer one or the other. As Reuben said some Ranches are smaller and jus need dogs to keep them close and move them, not necessarily go find them in thick under brush. My buddy is on several ranches as big as 30,000 acre's where the dog has to hunt and find the stray cattle. It is by no means any easy task. His dog excels at hog or cattle and is a BMC probly one of the best I have been around.

I prefer a dog with a lot of hunt and right now I currently own 3 full blooded Catahoulas. Two came from LA and the other from a ranch in S FL.  All of them will find and bay hogs, cattle, they will tree coons or possums, they would probly run a bear if I put them on it  ;D I consider them trash broke because when I go to hunt hogs they know were hunting hogs. If I take them to cattle they know were herding cattle. I expect them to be gamey hunting dogs with the want to hunt WHATEVER I PUT THEM ON. I hunt places with cows and hogs and they know when that Garmin is around there neck were lookin for POPPA HOG!!!!  ;)

Couple questions -

Do you purposely put them on a possum track? If so, why?
Do you use the dogs to go out and find cattle or just herd cattle in a pen or pasture?
Do you not put a Garmin on them when they are out finding cattle?

Just curious. I have been watching the polls above. The catagory for completly culling without attempting a crossover to cattle is currently leading. Is this mainly because you have a make it or break it attitude or you just simply don't have a direct cowdog outlet to give them a second shot before you cull hard?

Great views so far.

make it or break it attitude

its harder to find a good cow dog then it is a good hog dog.i mean a dog that will get on the front end and work a set of cows right.a dog that will bay tight when needed and bay loose and back up so u can drive cows when needed.i have helped drive cattle for miles in the mountians and a good dog is hard to come by.a good complete cow dog is hard to come by,good handle,brains,heart,bottom.just because a dog bays a cow dont make it a cow dog.one reason people thinks u cant have a dog do several things is because we dont use dogs like oldtimers used to.when i was a kid we ran deer with our hounds all during the day and coon hunted them at nite and never had a deer race.go gather cows with cur dogs one day and go hog hunting the next and ride rite thru cows.it called using a dog.not hun ting once a week or two times a week,its using a dog to fine tune them so they can b the best at what there doing.most dogs dont get used enough to ever b topnotch dogs.i think u can have all around dogs to a point.main thing is what there bred to do.

waylon when u get tired of them bm curs call me and ill set u up with some good hounds.lmao :D

Matt, i'm your buddy, but I've got to call BS on this. Your two catahoulas from louisiana haven't found and bayed a hog on their own and you haven't owned Skeeter for more than 6 months. Have you caught a hog with only your dogs on the ground yet?

 :-X  :D Kind of what i figured, but thats bad when your own buddy has to call BS on you!!!  rolleyes  >:D

Thanks for trying to keep him honest sfboarbuster!!! ;)

John you gotta start hunting with me more buddy, You cant expect to come hunt twice a year and expect to know what my dogs will and wont do.  Yes I have found and bayed a hog a few times with only Bubba on the ground I cant give you names of ppl that are there. The gyp isint far behind if the conditions are right. I havent owned Skeeter long but have hunted with him several years when my buddy owned him and the guy before that. I know what he will and wont do. All 3 dogs have bayed cattle, not going and finding just herding and grouping.

The point I was getting at was more along what Reuben was saying. I dont have 8 different dogs to do 8 differnt things.

-No I dont put them on a possum track or a coon track purposely  rolleyes
-They do not go and find cattle, Im not a rancher or a cow expert. I just hunt a few places with cows and wanted to see what they would do. I believe my lead dog came from old cow dog stock. 
-No garmin needed when there herding cows, it would only say NEAR.

The only time im not honest is about fishing  ;D Other then that I know what my dogs will and wont do. There not the best in any means but they suit me and find hogs.

Just quit coming off like an expert, you ain't been doing this long....

John why you even on here???  rolleyes you sold all your dogs to become a Cowboy. I hunt at LEAST 3 times a week, year round. I have a 10,000 acre lease and 6 dogs if I wanna throw my opinion around with these Tx boys, im gonna. Im no expert by any means. Just a guy with an opinion.

Lets go to the woods then, just me and you... no other dogs but yours.

You leg it, flip it, tie it, cut it if its a boar hog, and let it go (By your self)

I'll get the dogs off

BUDDDDY!!!!!! How many times have I hit you up to come hunt?????? your always moanin about gas. I got find dogs and a CD bring your HUGE roll of mule tape and let's do it! you know I dont hunt alone. You havent even seen my new woods truck!  ;D

Call me lets do it

Sorry about getting off topic on the thread...... Business needed taking care of ;D

You act like this doesnt happen? you hunt with a few people I do just ask around if you dont believe man. You know Tyler messed his hand up BAD and we hunt at least twice a week. Who do you think hobbles and releases the hog? Who do you think cuts the hog? Like I said I hunt 2 to 3 times a week ALWAYS year round. Rain, sleet or snow, with sumone either at my place or there's I dont need to get into a pissing match. I havnt sold my pack and gotten out then gotten back in I consistently have dogs and hunt.

" waylon when u get tired of them bm curs call me and ill set u up with some good hounds.lmao "

Russle I don't see me getting tired of them, You and I both know that the best yellers are all north of the Red River  ;) and just ask around everyone thinks mine are part hound anyway   :D

Oooooo. Low blow. LMAO :laugh:

Are you talking bout cowdogs or hogdogs cause Okies can't have em both. 

" Are you talking bout cowdogs or hogdogs cause Okies can't have em both.  "

That seems to be the general consensus YELLOWBLACKMASK , We both know them ol yeller dogs are only capable of a few limited chores anyway  ;) But as everyone knows Texas may have invented the BMC but Oklahoma perfected them  ;D

Your sounding like Bayedhardhogdogs now.

Okies are kinda like rats on a cheeto.

They didn't open the bag but they will dang sure try to finish em off for ya.  :laugh:

Okies are kinda like rats on a cheeto.

They didn't open the bag but they will dang sure try to finish em off for ya.


 :D Now that's funny

What I first start them on depends on if I need cow dogs or if I need hog dogs at that time.  They will eventually let me know what they like best.  When I'm in a bind the whole kennel turns into cow dogs.  Bull dogs included.  YBM can testify to that.

*FYI Bull dogs usually will work both cows and hogs.

Boy,boy Myles look what you have started now lol, I love threads like this we keep this up mikes gonna lock us down lol now let's get on something else, Like CAT'S SUCK AND BMC RULE  :D ;D

LOL ....Can't let that Yellers are better north of the Red go unchecked!! 

If this kind of blasphemy continues I am gonna personally mail a box of pine cones wrapped in Yeller dog hair to all non believers.   :laugh:

 ???  ???    So how can you consider them trash broke if they tree coons and possums when thats not what you purposely put them on???  rolleyes

Your post are like the Starburst commercials, a big contradiction...  ;D

Just wondering if a lot of so called hog dog culls would have been better hog dogs if they had been hunted on squirrels in the day time and worked on cattle as well only in day time??  seen and owned lots of curs who knew the difference when hunting hogs at nite, the dogs knew because we hunted so much more and lived on the ranch back them that had squirrels and coons to be hunted at night and ocassionally helped with running steers up for a 1 time a month chute check for health and maybe meds or something, these dogs knew not to bay cattle at night, they knew that when we left the kennel with a 22 and mule and went to the squirel bottom we were hunting squirrels, but while hunting 1 or 2 on squirrels with a 22 walking if a hog jumped up or bayed up we shot it and then went back to squirrel hunting again, sometimes it ended it cuase had to take hog to cooler  I still figured it depends on who is hunting the cur n the first place, I seen so many people depend on the same strike dog over and over never break up the pecking order in his hunting dog pack, the new tryeee dogs never get starting postion and wait on the old strike dog to open vs the new tryee being put n front of the truck with the old dogs n the box or held back with leads, the dog tryee never learns you are depending on him to strike and range out and holds back mentally, then he get the cull tag because the owner does not juggle up the batting order and puts the for sale classifieds add on here, somebody else with tons of hogs or no strike dog buys the so called hog dog cull and it becomes depended upon and encouraged and guess what, he mite also hunt it on climbing game as well occassionally work steers or cows 1 time a month, the cull learns that when his master is horseback and turns him loose at the cattle pens and says get the cow yellar hunt em up he knows the difference, down here so many fewer cow ranches left they have all gone to deer fencing and no cattle, the hired hands dont have permssion to hunt with dogs on the place becase they are day workers too and with the drought way fewer jobs if any to work dogs on cows, I think the extra to my hog dog pack might be a better label, but i rather buy a extra from a hog hunting pack than a cow dog line and last a blood trailing line just do the amount to work available to the dog, blood trailing is only deer season, so how could u ever really claim u have a tracking line anyway??  Hog and cow cur lines need tree dog hunting as well blood trailing deer, but not all people will or want to hunt them r work them on everyhting and change up the batting position either or really dont hunt enuff or have good country for cross training and lots of reps on all game, how many cur doggers have dogs that find wounded game no matter what it is if placed on it and sicced up??lol  I want to keep all of the curs and never have a cull

Well while your watching Starburst commercials little guy im out hunting my trashy dogs. Im not gonna lie and say my dogs are completly trash broke. I like to think they are but if a deer runs right in front of them they will chase it a bit. If were not hog hunting and Im letting them run around they will chase a possum or coon if its in my yard.

What about your dogs? I never hear you talk about them? Saw your FB you look like Opie Taylor off Andy Griffith NO hog pics, NO dog pics. What are you one of these internet Cowboys little Trent.???

Another thing I saw you talking about Randy Wright's dogs on the last page, have you had one and culled it? Have you tried several and they didnt work? please let me know your opinion on his dogs since your the expert. I personally know Randy and talk to him once in awhile. I know he breeds for $$$$ but he also has a few good dogs.

You need to open your eyes and look at it alot more kid, Larry Parker, Gary Campbell, Randy Wright, the list goes on......all use Brood gyps. I know alot of ppl that do this and produce consistent hog dogs.

Y'all better get the post back on track or I'm gonna do some culling.

Y'all want to call names and talk bad about each others dogs, pick up the phone.

 :D     Your a funny guy.... go check my facebook and look through my old post and you will see my hogs/dogs....  ;)

you said it yourself, He breeds for $$$$ but he also has some good dogs.... the good ones he must keep to himself...  Ive seen enough of his dogs to know im not wasting my money on them...  ;)

You can "THINK" what ever you want to, but the fact is, and the words came out of your mouth, your dogs are TRASHY.. how the hell can  you call a dog trash broke if they run deer, coons, possums, etc......    rolleyes

You continue to contradict yourself... I may look like Opie, but your the one that continues to make your self look retarded....  ;D

Go have a starburst...

Im done Mike, Sorry!!  ;)   :angel:

You should have thought about that before you made your last post.

Didnt mean to get off topic Mike sorry about that YELLOWBLACKMASK!

All I was simply trying to say is my dogs will do a variety of different things. Wilbanks your right there not 100 percent trash broke, But like I said I never had a problem with them running or treeing anything while we are hog hunting. I believe they know were lookin for hogs when they get in that dog box and put that Garmin on.

I dont know much about who has better yellow dogs out of Oklahoma or Tx but I do know Oklahoma is gettin that tail whooped against Florida State  ;D and maybe the Longhorns will pick it up this year. lol

Im not the administrator so no apologies needed.  I would venture to say this topic obviously has some strong opinions, which is exactly why I wanted to bring it up. I would urge everyone with an ongoing interest to continue posting their side. I will personally request that we keep the jabs and breeder opinions within the parameters of what is acceptable.  

I would be more interested in your own personal line or individual dogs.  ^-^

not wanting trouble just asking,mike if someone gets off topic or get mean or rude do u erase there post or kick them off the board and how many people can do this.

If people can't post respectfully, they get kicked off the board. Some people like to push it right to the edge without going over... too much of that is not tolerated either.

It's real simple and easy to get along on here, some folks just don't get it.

According to the polls. We have more that would completely cull without a cowdog trial. Let me throw a reverse question. Do we have any professional cowmen that make your living punching cows.  The question being would you entertain the thought of cross utilizing a dog primarily out of hogdog stock that had promising potential of working cows.

What are your thoughts?

A cow dog has got to be pretty good at alot of different things this style is what sets it apart from a straight hog dog in most cases.

A cow dog needs to:
Hunt deep
Run a track and wind cattle
Have the drive to bunch cattle
Work the herd with a lot of circle
Never bite a cow that is in contact with the herd
Bite every cow that leaves the herd and stay hooked no matter what untill that cow returns to the herd or is caught
Needs to understand a settled bay and loosen up, even ranging out to look for more cattle
Needs good handle and can be called out from any distance
Needs to be able to lead cattle and control a drive from the front
must be heat tolerant with a lot of drive and go
Must understand pressure and never brake a set of bayed cattle by biting in the herd

Most hog dogs do not have all these traits because they have not been selected for this type of style, I would never breed to a Hog dog that was not well proven in these areas and I would have to see them work a set of tough cows.

as you can see I borrowed this from the post above from Silverton... :)

A hog dog needs to:
Hunt deep
Run a track and wind hogs
Have the drive to bunch hogs or stick with one until stopped and bayed.
Stand back and bay without intimidating the hogs
Bite any hog that leaves the herd and stay hooked no matter what untill that hog returns to the herd or is caught
Needs to understand a settled bay and loosen up
must be heat tolerant with a lot of drive and go
Must understand pressure and never break a set of bayed hogs by biting in the herd

That is more or less the perfect hog dog in my book. As you can see the traits are similar but the list is shorter for the hog dog.

I know of 2 brothers that have a line of curs that hunt well and they use these same hog dogs to work and catch cattle. I hear that their dogs are exactly what Silverton describes as to what a good cow dog should be...It is my belief that to have dogs that work equally well on both hog and cattle must be worked on a regular basis to get the best results and of course must have the breeding or at least have a proven dog.

This pretty much should answer the question... "Hog dog Culls Or Cowdog Gold"? If it is a cull for a hog dog then it should be a cull for a cow dog. and visa versa

However, I would buy a hog dog pup from a long line of good hog dogs, and, if I wanted a good cow dog prospect I would buy a pup from a long line of proven cow dog stock of my liking...

You guys are giving exceptional info and views but will throw another head scratcher into the mix. Both of your lists I agree and personally relate to. But both lists in my opinion are almost identical minus a few tactical preferences.  And again I would never be furthering the discussion without personally witnessing dogs in both lines that have a distinct prefererence for one but not the other. These are long proven lines from both sides of the fence.

Anyway great discussion. Let's here from a few more cowmen and see if the thoughts differ or stay the same.

So far this post has not let me down on great opinions. Good stuff guys.

I don't work cattle enough to consider myself a " Cowman " so I can't speak to much on that. We take about 2000 steers out of florida a year but there kept in pastures around 300 acres each and there not hard to find when there bawling behind the feed truck.

Paul I will say though we have the same type of dog in mind for cattle, really that's about what I expect from my hog dogs as well. The tuff part about it is there are not enough people breeding or working that type of dog today. I see the catahoula breed headed in a direction where there main focus is winning they bay pens. I see the yeller dog crowd as a whole focused on either hogs or cattle and not both. The tuff part for me is finding men who breed all around working cur dogs, or what we call in my country " Head dogs " to produce that type  time after time. You gotta outcross sometime, even as tight as I believe in breeding you do have to breed out after a while and where do you go to find that " all around  " type of dog to outcross with?

Times two on silverton... Well rounded list.

I'll add to the list another trait I love to see in a cowdog, that I believe a hog dog should possess as well.

The ability to assess a situation without hesitation on both livestock and people, then make the correct decision on how to respond to it.  I love a dog that reads livestock. Constantly one step ahead at chess. They Got to have intelligence.

I won't switch dogs I don't like on cows over to hogs, I'll typically not like them on hogs for the same reasons I did not like them on cattle... Some do like a hog better, but their faults as cowdogs still shine through as hog dogs, it seems like.

The ability to assess a situation without hesitation on both livestock and people, then make the correct decision on how to respond to it.  I love a dog that reads livestock. Constantly one step ahead at chess. They Got to have intelligence.

Excellent point and I agree 100%

ive never had a cow dog, ive had some hog dog culls that worked for me

but i had a collie growing up that would try and herd me and my friends when we would go out and ride dirt bikes and atvs so thats bout the closest thing i got

Good stuff right there ;)

This thread has been a very entertaining way to spend a rainy, yes I said rainy, :o saturday morning! I sure could have used some of the cowdogs like silverton described a couple days ago. I have never had the privilege of working with good cow dogs. I have worked with some guys who had dogs that bayed cows, but not with any that were the type described here. Quality dogs fascinate me. One day I would like to join a gather where these kind of dogs are used. This is very informative, I'm all ears!

Mike, This should about sum it up... I had to clean it up a bit though.. :o

(http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w234/got2catchem/adminscleanversion.jpg)

Levi, have you ever tried to see what Red would do on cows? Maybe you could make him work both ways..  ;)


Josh, there's a big difference between a trashy dog and a all around dog....  ;)

My family sold out most of our cows a few years ago, so we have no need for cowdogs and my grandpa usually just kept a few collies and heelers around..
I sold a young bmc a while back that i had started on hogs and wasnt doing too bad... he was out of cowdog stock, and the guy that has him now is using him on cows and is doing pretty good at it from what i hear...

I highly doubt he is on the level that Silverton described as a cowdog, but he could be used either way and get the job done....
I think if they dont make it at one task, they should atleast get the chance to be used at another ... then if they still dont make the grade, cull....

I havent read all 5 pages of this thread but I would like to say that two of our best hog dogs were given to us by an old cowboy who was fixing to cull them as cowdogs because they were too rough on the cattle. He told me that a dog that was bred for cattle but was on the rough side would make a good hog dog, and danged if he wasn't right.  :) I wouldn't trade those two for anything. These two were still young when we got them but he said that he could already tell that they were going to be too rough. THey are our Red and Sweetpea, full brother and sister.

Come on guys let it go this is nothing to get banned over. This is a good thread let it be. Take the nonsense elsewhere.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

Good advice... unfortunately someone didn't take it.

I just deleted a page worth of $hit that didn't have anything to do with this topic.

 

Just curious what does too ruff really mean???   When i was selling started dogs and somebody came back and said the dog is too ruff, it usually meant the guy with started dog did not have them under control on voice comand, in the old days i have seen peeps takes 22 rat shot and shoot dogs that had to much bite on them and were locking up on ears or noses and too agressive or hanging on tails, seems like a single bull in a cleaned up pasture of cows was always a lot of trobule for some who could not read there dogs enuff to get them to entice the bull to chase them to the pens or drive him out from a oak tree mott, its a fine line and many never get it  I used to wonder if they would have had a Tritronics collar with  a buzz before shock option they could have got the dog to understand what was wanted, pressure to move the cow, or make a errant cow stay in the herd or put a bite on one to make it try to escape from a thicket  I would take the dog back anyways and never argued, i fugured if they could not get the dog under voice comand they prob burn it up with the tritronics collar in ignorance or anger  I still remember hands quirting and scolding curs that were making cattle bleed during the screwworm times, if a dog bit a cow it was instant next day doctoring and biting was very frowned on, you never hardly ever see all of the roping and draging wild cattle or letting dog chew up a animal, it cost to much, people took longer to let the dogs stir the animal and sat on a horse for hours letting them get bayed up and settle into a herd  So many want to turn dogs loose, go to the cow or cowherd and immegaitely start driving them, if they dont drive 1th thing comes next is the rope or running the cows from behind and about to run over the cowdogs,  I am glad they worked for you, was wondering as well if the 2 dogs you got catch or just bay tight or wll not touch a hog or will catch if another dog catches or what  did you ever get to see the cowboy that gave yall the dogs who said they were too ruff???   Were these dogs of yalls hard to handle or hard headed when you started using them??

That is how most of the dogs we use in florida come about.

I guess "too rough" varies from person to person. But the guy who gave the dogs to us, doesn't tollerate his cow dogs to put teeth on a cow. He likes to take them slow and easy to the pens without upsetting them.

Also, the dogs that we got were very timid at first and they surely will put teeth on a hog. Before Red got his two top cannines jerked out by hogs, he would catch anything under about 70lbs.,now he just tries, if we hear him baying, we know its a big one. LOL

There are two types of rough cow dog.

Type #1 is a dog that will bite a cow in the herd. This is a straight cull in my oppinion. These dogs will not respect a settled bay and will break the cow bay every time or at least split the bay. This type of dog will do the same on hogs and will not let them stand without trying to catch. This type of dog will often bite and release picking a fight with a cow or hog instead of working it into a good solid bay.

The second type is a dog that will not bite in the bunch or a cow that is staying bayed up but will hang off an ear or nose on any cattle that break bay and run. This is what they are bred to do. Some are just rougher than others. The type of cattle being gathered dictate how rough your dogs need to be on a runner. A man gathering tame cattle that might be dog broke wants a dog that hits a cow but doesn't hang. Gathering maverick or spoiled cattle takes a rougher dog that likes to hang on the runners. These type of dogs will do some damage to the cattle but that is what it takes to hold up wild cattle. Most of this type of cattle come out of the pasture on the end of a rope and are going straight to the sale barn so what ever it takes roughness wise from the dogs is OK, just get the job done. These dogs often stay caught untill the cow is roped and tied down. These dogs make great hog dogs for me and they will catch any hog that wants to run.

So when you are looking for rough cow dog to try on hogs you would want dogs from the second type because they will bay a hog well but will run to catch a runner. To this type of dog, that has been catching 1000lbs cows on a regular basis, catching and holding big hogs is not a big deal at all.

I am not saying that is gospel but I have caught 1,000's of cattle with dogs and used those same dogs on hogs and that is just my experience.

The concensus of the majority so far has actually been the exact reverse of what I originally believed.

It seems most hog doggers are somewhat receptive to taking and trying failed cowdogs. 

The cowmen seem to be standing firm about a no go on attempting to try a failed hogdog.

Interesting stuff guys.

Can't break it down any better than that. Good post ;)

I made my mind up in the mid 80's about certain breed of dogs and the breeds I am talking about were cow dogs. I tried them on hogs and a high percentage did not have the hunt or nose. I hunted with some dogs that had some hound in them and I saw some real hog dogs with these crosses.

I also saw where the old time mtn curs were hard to beat because they were hard hunting dogs and they were bred for hunting, all they needed was to be shown what was to be hunted.

I have heard about some good combination cow/hog dogs and these that I have heard about are raised from hardcore men who make a living working and catching cows. And these men are dogmen so if I wanted a cow dog for a hog dog I would most definitely buy a few pups from these type of dogs. Most people who raise these type of dogs guard their bloodline and usually do not sell or give away their pups. I am pretty sure these are the type of dogs Silverton is talking about...

I also know that there are some good cow dog stock out there that has been converted to a hog hunting strain of dogs like YellowBlackMask's line of yeller dogs. But more than likely his line of dogs come from the all around cur dog that worked livestock and hunted for the ranch folks. Just good all around ranch dogs of the past...

I also knew of some good jude hart bred all around cow/hog dogs but I went to his yard a few years after he passed away and his son tried to sell me some dogs that did not look like Jude Hart dogs.

HOG DOG CULLS OR COW DOG GOLD???

If I cull a dog it will not go for hunting or even working cattle because a cull is a cull. Might not always be true but the percentages are always against the dog once he is culled.

According to what Silverton describes as a good cow dog then I know for a fact it wouldn't work and a hog dog can not be made from a culled cow dog because both descriptions are so similar.

I do know some folks sometimes going thru the trouble of converting a squirrel dog to coon dog or to hunt something else because the dog does not like this game or that game. A good hunting dog should hunt what you want it to hunt or it is a cull.

One exception I can think of right now is if the hunting tree dog hunts real good but does not hold a tree...+ this dog can sometimes make a hog dog.

The only place for a cull is  for a pet/companion or just a good ole ranch dog.

Reuben,

One thing that we have not talked about in this discussion is speed. Raw speed and track speed. For me a cow dog/hog dog has got to have outstanding raw/track speed. A cow dog has got to be able to get to the head of 700lb brangus heifers (one of the fastest critters I need to catch). Same on a running hog, the dog has got to have the speed to get to the head and "force" the cow/hog to hold up and bay.

A dog with not quite enough speed will end up falling in behind the cow/hog and push it rather than stopping it. I don't want the hog or cow to pick the place to bay up. I need my dogs to force the issue and make the hog I am proud of my dogs when they stop a hog that has broken bay and run and have it backed up on a small tree or fence post. When they bay up in a thicket or in water the hog has chosen that spot not the dogs forcing the issue. Speed is the problem most of the time when this happens. Now dogs get hot and thick brush interferes but on the average the dog needs the speed to get to the head.

If the runner does not check up and give the dogs the chance to get a solid bay, the dogs should start trying to catch. The dog has got to have the speed to wing out beside and ahead barking and positioning to jump to hit the ear nose or jaw. When the hits the head the cow/hog throws the head up and flails both front legs. This will impede forward motion and give the dogs a chance to hold up the cow/hog. If the cow/hog does not want to stop and keeps running it will have been slowed enough by this initial hit for all dogs in the pack to get a chance to get a hold. My dogs will hang on a cow like this from both ears and both jaws. Four dogs hanging on that head will pull it down and force the cow to stop and fight instead of running.

This is when the cow has a choice. It can stand and fight and get caught or run like the dickens for the safety of the heard. The dogs I prefer for hog dogs are this type of cow dog. If a pig breaks they have the speed to get in position and if the hog will not stop they will get the the head and catch. I don't have any long races with these dogs. If I hear a bay break I send the Dogo from any distance because I know we are fixing to have a caught hog right quick and I want a big dog to get there quick and catch solid.

They have got to have the speed to get to the head quickly or nothing else really matters.

I Agree...but we do have some good hog dogs that grab a mouthful of nuts or ham and sit back like a good roping horse and then move around to the front end.

I would agree, but those dogs have got to have the speed as well. I have wondered if some of the problem with stopping running hogs comes from a lack of raw speed. How many hog dog breeders are selecting for speed as a necessity in breeding. I don't know the answer to that question, may be some others could answer that.

I am lucky that I work a lot of open country where I can see a set of dogs break with a cow or a hog and really see how much difference there is is raw speed in a set of good dogs. The fastest are the ones I like to breed all other things being equal. To me speed is the difference between a good dog and a great dog.

Speed is good when it can be utilized. A lot of us hunt in country where a dog can't use it's speed to full potential, can't get ahead of a hog and sure can't get close enough to latch onto one.

This where long races and lot's of bottom come into play.

that is all true . i had a dog out of hog dog stock that would stop a hog from the backend , theis kept him from getting cut . the problem was , he tried to stop a single cow the same way . which means i had to catch up and rope the cow , no big deal as thats what always happens on a single ... but if he went to the head on that single cow i coulda caught her closer to the road .

   is it just my thinking or is it best to stop a hog from the back and spin him to keep him from running through the dogs , or keep going to the head and trying to bend him into a bay like a set of cattle -and then catch. i'm strictly talking about a single hog with cutters here

jdt,

I don't believe that a good cow dog should catch from the back end.

Some hog dogs catch the back end because like Mike says. the underbrush is bad and it is ok to catch the back end on a hog and then move to the front end. Head dogs are good but if the dog is only looking to grab the front end he might not get the oppurtunity because of the palmettos, brush, and other obstacles. Fast on track, lots of speed but a lot of stick is needed in the thick woods. One very important trait needed in a hog dog is the ability to stick with the hog even in the thickest thickets. Quite a few dogs do not have this.

I use bmc almost everyday on cows and also have a set that i hog hunt with.I try all puppies and see which way they work better and how rangy they are.I dont need a cow dog to get gone as soon as i turn him loose.My dogs wear shock collars and do mind but when i send them to the cows i dont need them leaving the country.I dont mind my cow dogs baying a hog when I am working cows but my hog dogs are all broke off cows.Me personally i like versatile dogs i get some of my best cow dogs from my buddies culls.

The pole is starting to turn around.

I grew up around sheep and cattle dogs pretty much my whole life because my dad trained them for people, worked them as a hobby , and just used them on gathering and moving our own cattle or sheep. He always kept and trained border collies, hanging tree cow dogs , or a kelpy. I never even heard of anybody using bmc on cattle till I started hog hunting with dogs about 4 or 5 months ago. It seems that it comes natural for these dogs to bay not herd and drive. But like I said I was never around any. Do any of you actually have bmc that will drive and herd cattle and lot them by working off your commands just like a collie would do? I'm just cuious. I just thought it was odd that all these years I never even heard him or any of the guys he worked dogs with even mention a cur.

" I just thought it was odd that all these years I never even heard him or any of the guys he worked dogs with even mention a cur "


Funny I'm just the opposite  ;) I didn't know there was such thing as a collie type dog except on sheep farms and feed lots,I've never seen a collie or kelpie wind and hunt brushed up cattle or bunch rough rank wild run away's . In my country cattle are worked with head dogs only and the old timers say collie dogs are not tough enough for rank cattle, unless there already penned or wore down............ Just saying

rueben , yes , any curdog that goes to the backend on cattle is a cull . but when you live in west tn and catch cattle as part of your livin you have to work with what you got at the time . and i agree on the rest of your last post , sometimes that is the only way to stop a hog .
   my question is would a dog always be better of to stop the hog from the rear ? does it depend on the hog ? i have a couple pretty catchy dogs on hogs ...but they dont usually get aholt of his face ( as far as i know , thats kinda what i'm wondering  ) until he,s stopped , bayed and ready to be caught or me or the bulldog get there .


      j caroll i  used hangin tree dogs for several years gathering and catching cattle . they have some cur in them too . with cur dogs you let them find an bay the cattle , then when settled good you ease up and drive the herd and more or les let the dogs hold the front and sides .  with bc / htc type dogs you ride up front and let the dogs bring the cattle and keep them behind you .

  which way is best ? ... depends on th cattle and the country - and mostyl the particular dogs . ;)

We have had some collies and hanging tree dogs that were not rough enough on cattle and some that would flat out bring some blood if an ol cow wanted to be hard to deal with. Your right about the hunting and winding part though. Never had one hunt one down for us. There are cattle bred collies that are probably rougher than you think though. Still curious if people just use them to keep them at bay or to get them out of the brush or if they can actually use them to drive a herd across 400 acres and lot them?

Jdt you answered me while I was writing that. Lol thanks. I was just wondering how people used the curs on cattle.

yeah , everbodys typin at the same time i guess lol .   waylon you have to go through several herding type dogs to get one tough enough for rank cattle , and the best htc i ever had would turn a buffalo - but wouldnt hunt but maybe 100 yds around you .

 i gave up on them when i lost my good hangin tree dog and coulnt afford to replace him at the new designer prices. because of those 3 reasons . too high , not stout enough and not enough hunt , i'm a strait ybm man now . ;D

Well JDT

You just won yourself a free chicken sawich and a large milk shake for that comment. Lets go ahead and bump you on up to my fav five.  ;D

hahaha , at the same time i was using them htc s i was working with a guy that had some ben jordan bmc s , we allways ribbed each other about who's was best .  sometimes i still wish i had some good htc s , most of the time the yeller dogs get it done better , especially on hogs . and they never call you to catch cattle until they've done everything they can to make them complete idiots !

Mike, I hunt the same area (somewhat) as you and I agree. I have had the privilege to hunt up in the pan handle with Paul a little bit, and its no lie that his dogs got some speed and will go to the head and put the stop to a hog in a hurry. I have also been hunting my normal places in east texas this summer where its like a jungle. It seems to me in the winter, the races are not near as long. Really the hogs dont hardly get to break more than 50 yrds or so, but these same places in the summer the chase might be a mile. I think this might be because during the winter its open enough for dogs to move to the head and in the summer its not.

There was a hunt a couple weeks ago where me and a buddy were in a spot that the brush was beat down by cattle real good. The bay broke and the hog came out of the thick stuff right at us. It was really interesting to watch the dogs go from a tight bunch behind the hog, coming out of the brush, to more open circling towards the head. They hit the head and had her stopped ten yards past us.


Wondering if you ever notice the same sort of thing going on with your dogs?

My experience has been if they are runners it doesn't matter to them if it's hot, cold, thick, or open. They are gonna take you on a hike unless you shut em down immediately or have the bottom to close em. They run on us just as bad in winter as they do in summer. Gonna start doin like the old timers. When you, mark hogs cut a back leg tendon to three leg him. That way you are not having to drive to other counties to pick dogs up.

TColt, they run the same year round. All the yaupon, briars, vines and palmettoes are there all year. The only advantage in the colder months is that the dogs last a lot longer. After a hard race that goes for several miles in this high heat and humidity... they're done.

I agree 100% on speed. My dogs are fast and will smoke a track, I wouldn't have it any other way. I hunt a bunch of cattle country also, just west of the Piney Woods region. In the winter time when all the weeds have died off, these places are a pure pleasure to hunt. It's like going from hell to heaven. This where your dogs can truly utilize their speed 100%.

YBM- Im not saying they dont try to run as much, the dogs just shut them down alot easier in the winter time. They pretty much always get shut down. But we end up on more mile runs in the summer, and more like 50 yrd runs in the winter. I also send my cd's almost right away weather it be 50 yrds or 500. So we dont have any break if her gets their before they make a run for it. But if they do break before, they stop them alot quicker in the winter than the summer.

Mike- Im a few hours north of you, I get down in the Huntsville area every now and then, but mostly Kaufman and VanZandt counties... we dont have palmettoes. We got the briars and all that, but almost everything we hunt has cattle run on it so it helps alot. Still dont do much in the summer when the under brush comes out though lol.

One thing I think thats funny is that when we hunt in the summer on ET places, my little 25# lacy dog is always the one out front keeping up with the hog. Durring the winter its a toss up as to who is leading, and like I said, they dont break far in the winter very often . But when they are on a dead run in the summer, she will be 100+ yrds ahead of other dogs. She is fast, but my guess is her size she is able to get through the tight spots and thick stuff easier.

Bet you are the guy they call last when they have boogered all the cows and pissed off the landowner, but you are used to that because you know what it takes, you are a rare breed for sure and prob work all of the time as word gets around who has dogs that work right and those who just waste time, another mans cull is your gold

I was reading back and found this thread. Was sorry I had missed it. Found it very interesting and always like seeing everyone's opinion.  I have cattle bred border collies and I don't own any curs yet, but have had the fever lately. I'm not here to state my opinion that one breed is better than another. I do believe that dogs are bred for certain jobs and fit some people better than others. I respect all the men that are breeding strictly for what they want in a working dog and not for $$$$. I agree that there are border collies that will straight up whip a cow and get down and dirty, but are a lot more that won't. I think that goes back to money. Man pays 500 for a pup feeds it for a year and it turns out a so so dog he will get by with him instead of culling him. Then since he is ok they breed him to another ok dog and so on. People start selling dogs for crazy money because of a name on the papers. I respect these men that raise litters for themselves culling anything that doesnt make the cut and only giving dogs to people they know. I don't think there are many doing this in the collie business.  That is one reason I find cur dogs interesting. I enjoy this forum very much and have learn lots on breeding and culling. I belong to some other cowdog forums and cull is a word very seldom discussed. I purchased the loydd perry book because of the post on this site and read it in 3 nights. Only question I have is how is a man suppose to get his hands on a few good bred pups without knowing any good dog men? I def understand a man not wanting to let his blood out to someone he doesn't know anything about. How did some of you get started?

SLacowboy- Here is what I'd suggest to you about finding good cur dogs to get into,

Don't run right out and buy a cur dog until you have been around a few different styles and breeds, once you know for sure what you want in a dog 100%, find the guys who have that line/style/type of them and buddy up with them and hunt with them when you can, once they can tell your serious and know how to handle the dogs and will hunt/work them hard they will maybe allow you to get some of there blood, maybe for free  ;D

Just my opinion anyway

I run cattle and hunt hogs but I take my kids coon today I bayed a bad bull two days ago I treed coin Waylon was with me I also hunt hogs with the same dogs. Good genetics are good genetics. Now I only work cattle in day light I only hunt hogs at night. I only hunt coin with kids my dogs know what I want by what I do. You can't. Beat good genetics but I cull hard my kids know dad gets rid of average dogs.but you can't replace time with dogs. Wet blankets make good horses and sour paws make a dog

Something else you need to know is how to turn on genetics. When I start a litter at 10 weeks I introduce my pups to all I am going to do with them. Then I let them run free around the house until they get in trouble. Then I let each run a little until they are ready to train. I then put them on a chain with little contact to get their head strait. When I take a new pup with an old dog I only take one at a time.I then go and find my old Mexico bull meanest fighting bull on earth. I then put the old dog to work. And drop the pup usually 9months old and wait. When  Mexico starts to fight the pup will do one of two things. He will ether turn on like a light switch or not. We breed dogs to be predators. And work in a pack we being the Alfa male if a dog. If the pup does not turn on he is a cull. If he does he goes into training.

Lil off topic but we can come right back. What is the average population % for Yeller dogs in the northern parts of OK, minus the Ben dogs? Curious because there seems to be pockets around certain area's that hold higher or lower percentages. East Texas is thicker than flies but was just wondering where the other Yeller hot spots that were not primarily made up of foundation dogs?

i rem the place we got our pups from a long time ago, we went to northern alabama for ours and it was like every farm on that stretch of highway had BMC pups for sale

All good dogs I know of are foundation two different blood lines

YELLOWBLACKMASK

There are a few guys up here who keep the dogs all the time and then there are some hog hunter who might have one here and there, Scott who posted above me in this thread as Sdrummond keeps and works BMC dogs on his ranch all the time both as cow and hog dogs or what ever else is needed, the other fella is James wilcox who brought some BMC dogs into this country years ago and was about the first one to really be known to have some up here way back when, James is the retired foreman of the Drummond ranch ( different drummond ranch from scott, but same family ) Other than that there are just some cowboys who get there dogs from these 2 guys when they need one and most of the cowboys don't really breed much, there pretty much the only 2 breeders and workers of the yeller dogs in my area which is big ranch country, tall grass praire type terrain. My lana gyp came from Scott and is related to some dogs that he and james both have and will be bred back to that blood " TIGHT " before I transplant to South Texas, there foundation bred dogs so to speak but there not the $ market type dogs there the get work with out excuses type dogs, if not those 2 fellas will cull them. Hope that answers your question

That's really my main question wasn't knocking the foundation dogs but there were many lines out there prior to the foundation craze. Mostly were old lines held by local individuals. Just was curious to see where these pockets of yellow dogs were still the strongest without factoring the foundation lines in. The other part is alot of the members only have experience with that particular line and would probably enjoy hearing a lil history of the non published lines. 

  YESSIR . i know where your goin .

I need to clarify my statement. In my area all the dogs i know of have some foundation In them
Their are a lot of good dogs from old catch strains that are the base of their breeding program with foundation mixed in