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Author Topic: The Science of Stop  (Read 8097 times)
Black Streak
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« on: August 31, 2016, 05:32:08 pm »

My previous examples of catching in feilds and it's descussion was to set up the understanding for this descussion.     The science behind stopping and catching pigs and the variables that influence the outcome.
    We all I think can come to the agreement that a dog can run faster in the open than it cane the brush no matter what dog it is.
   We all can agree that most pigs started in the open are caught in the brush.        This would imply that shutting a pig down in the open  of any sort " baying or catch" is more difficult, based on the percentage of all pigs started in the open that are finished in the woods or brush.  Why is this since all our dogs are faster in the open and have virtually no obstructions between the dogs and the pig, which would allow the dog to better impose it's will on the pig.
    Well to answer this we would have to look at pig psychology of a pig.    Why will the average pig not stop and bay up in the open for the dogs but will when it gets to where it has the dogs at a disadvantage in the brush?     
                The non conforming pig that takes you around the world is the problem we as most pig doggers face.  These are the pigs to me that were really fun when I was a bay dog guy.  Problem was property wasn't big enough to allow this in many areas,   dogs could get lost, you got farther and farther away from water and med kit, not productive for tournament hunting, couldn't get to bay do to not your permission etc.
    So how do we stop these running pigs that won't conform to the average pig in most areas.  Some areas the runners are the most common.
   Well if your dog can't stop the pig in the open and this is a runner that won't stop in the brush, how your dogs gonna stop him once he hits the brush?      Run him out of air is about the best you can do.
      So it's either catch him or run him out of air till you can keep him bayed long enough to get cd there.  There are exceptions of course but the running pigs generally dictate what plays out and how.
   Anybody see anything about this they disagree with?
     
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Reuben
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« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2016, 07:14:57 pm »

stopping a pig...

my opinion;

it all depends on many factors as to how a pig will react once he realizes the dogs are on to him.

I am talking about hogs started in the open...

if he has never seen or never has been bothered by a dog he will more than likely stand his ground until he realizes his mistake...at that time he is caught or he breaks for cover...he probably won't run far thinking that the dogs will give it up...depending on the dogs he could be right...some dogs will bay loose and the bull dog shows up and it is over...or maybe the dogs are just gritty enough to keep pushing the hog and the hog will be educated...good gritty cur dogs will hammer down and probably catch them in the open...of course it has to do with how far the pig has to run to reach cover...I believe the average wild pig can reach speeds of up to 30 mph for short bursts of speed...but will drop off between 20-25 mph...my cur dogs can run 28-30 mph and they do not have a problem running down and catching in the open...but more often than not we see a pig or pigs cross a pipeline and each side of the pipeline is pretty thick...so where we hunt the hogs has a lot to do if they get caught or not even with good dogs...if they are dog smart and will not stop and keep hitting the thick stuff the dogs will not keep up because they are having to trail...and it takes a good dog to stick with the track for hours...I am not a finder holder dog man but I know some about most breeds...these dogs will run quite a bit faster than the average cur dog and their chances of catching the hog in the open is better for that reason...if a finder holder is true to his name then it will be a caught hog if he catches it in time before it gets off in the thick briars...a finder holder is supposed to catch if not he is a cull...so any time he is able to reach the hog it should be caught...if the hog makes it to the briars he will stop pretty quick to listen and he probably will get caught by the finder holder if he is not dog smart...if the hog is dog smart he will run and run through mostly the thick stuff...the average finder holder will probably trail the smoking hot track for a little while and give it up...because the few I have seen do just that...they are sight hunters first and wind hunters second...and trailing a distant third...

my observation of wild hogs in the years gone by has led me to develop a theory on why some run so much and and those that stopped to fight got caught pretty quick...at least that is how I saw it in my neck of the woods...I saw that the barnyard looking hogs with the flop ears did not run as fast and they tended to stop to fight more often...the hogs with the most russian influence tended to run more often and once they do they tend to run further...we as hog doggers have done our part in educating them...but that is a minor environment issue...the real problem is that we have really sped up the evolutuon process by catching the slow ones first and so the hogs have evolved into hogs that will and can run for hours...those that survive tend to pass on there genes more often than not...it is called survival of the fittest...

and a huge factor in whether or not you will catch hogs has to do with where you are hunting...open type woods with good dogs and plenty of hogs...it will be a good day...

in the thick thick jungle where the hogs have been dogged and you will be lucky to catch one every now and then...

When I was a little kid I knew where to hunt when it flooded w/dogs or w/gun...knew where to hunt in droughts...

and when rabbit hunting with my dogs I knew where we could catch as many as I could carry in less than 2 hours...and I knew where not to go with my dogs because we would not catch one but every now and then...I had dogs to hunt and jump and had  lurcher types that would catch...if the rabbit made it to cover the small flusher dogs would catch in the briars or flush them out to get caught by the hunters or lurchers...

the lurcher types would not trail much but would wind some...they tended to follow the trailers/jumpers...these dogs caught deer that I would shoot with a 22 on account I liked my dogs running them down and catching...to see the lurcher types really work was when we got on a jack rabbit or deer...they were at their best when they had their eye on the game...
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« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2016, 08:29:36 pm »

This is really simple to me. If the hogs are aware the dogs are on them from a distance then they run and takes longer to stop. The unaware hog is easly over taken. The running type hog will have to be persuaded to stop if that with gritty or bottom or catch. I have some very catchy dogs two or 3 of them together will catch any hog that turns to fight. And I will say this a running hog is easier caught while running then if it is being bayed 


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Reuben
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« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2016, 09:47:34 pm »

And I will say this a running hog is easier caught while running then if it is being bayed 


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I agree...and I will add...a dog that is gritty but won't put teeth on a hog that is holding bay will lots of times catch an ear or a ham to stop a running hog...
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« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2016, 10:38:02 pm »

...black streak  you got the best ...that should help matter's .... Grin.... each hog is different and the same hog can be different on any given day ...what works  today may fall a little short tomorrow ....  .... caught a big male hog one time  he just set down and squealed like a sow ....we  cut him bayed him another time he damn near killed everything we  had ....you just never know .....one thing is for  sure  tell somebody how  good your dogs  are  and  your  sure  to look like a fool later ....
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Black Streak
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« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2016, 11:04:42 pm »

Ruben i didn't think I was gonna enjoy your post and just dang near didn't read it but I did.  Not bad, I actually enjoyed it and appreciate  it!         I do have a correction for you though about the finder holders.  The true finder holder guys breed there dogs to scent find first and foremost.  Sight is important and so is sound but the scent is first to those guys and their finder holders.  
     I basically have two types of dogs on my yard.  Finder holders and stags, though mine aren't really coyote type stags except 1.  My stags have a large influence of wolfhound, I guess that would mean they are long dogs but but I call them stags.  The term stag has a little wiggle room but not as much as lurcher or especially rcd.      Many many many types of rcd's and categories and sub categories if you really wanted to break things down.  Many types of finder holder bred dogs too.   It's really not fare at all to say a finder holder is best in this situation and not so well in another.   Just depends on the breeding and personal preference. Same goes for lurchers, rcd's, and even stags and long dogs.  These are all loose terms that have wiggle room.  A stag for example isn't a true breed of dog but rather a type.    You have roo stags, coyote stags and pig stags (I made the last up).   My stags have lot of wolfhound blood in them making them bigger, harder, more willing to 1 out a pig and more willing to use their nose to scent pigs etc.        
       Really not far to judge a style or breed of dog off what 1 person has.  Rcd types and their various categories and sub categories are as diverse as the cur dog and hound worlds.       Also dogs adapt to hunting styles of their owners and how one guy hunts half the litter might not be how another guy hunts and the dogs will get used to and adapt or spoiled to certain way and not be as willing to work another way as the other guys half the liter.  I see this in rcd's anyway.
   I enjoyed your post, sorry for the long description of rcd's,  I kinda got side tracked from what I was really gonna say, now this post is soooo long it lost a lot of people's attention lol
 
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Black Streak
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« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2016, 11:24:53 pm »

This is really simple to me. If the hogs are aware the dogs are on them from a distance then they run and takes longer to stop. The unaware hog is easly over taken. The running type hog will have to be persuaded to stop if that with gritty or bottom or catch. I have some very catchy dogs two or 3 of them together will catch any hog that turns to fight. And I will say this a running hog is easier caught while running then if it is being bayed 


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Good points.    Crop dogs need to be really fast because they have a lot of distance to make up in a limited amount of space.   If I sight hunt the head start the pig had is usually close to 300.  Don't matter to me, I'm sending the dog anyway if it's 600 yards cause they will catch in the woods pretty easy if the race gets in there.       Scent hunting the dogs and the head starts are usually around 100 yards.  If the moon is bright it might be a bigger jump for the pig but the race is shorter because the dogs catch quicker.  On a dark dark night, when they get to pig, it's a running fight for a little distance before they start swinging.     In mature crops, the dogs make a lot of noise running to pigs they have scented.    They know the pigs are there, just can't see them when they get close cause of the tall crops.   They pick up the spooked pigs with there ears.  I catch smaller pigs often during this time of crop hunting do to the dog zeroing in on the sound of the pig running through the crop rather than being able to see what it's now on or any of the others.   
         I've said many times on here that a running pig is a caught pig for my dogs too.  Easier for them to grab a hold of a runner than it is to get the ear of one that's standing and fiercely defending itself.
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Black Streak
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« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2016, 12:04:50 am »

...black streak  you got the best ...that should help matter's .... Grin.... each hog is different and the same hog can be different on any given day ...what works  today may fall a little short tomorrow ....  .... caught a big male hog one time  he just set down and squealed like a sow ....we  cut him bayed him another time he damn near killed everything we  had ....you just never know .....one thing is for  sure  tell somebody how  good your dogs  are  and  your  sure  to look like a fool later ....



Well I didn't say they were the best, you did so i better not get ginksed.     
     When I used to do the bay dog deal, I'd have ups and downs.    Catch 3 big rank boars back to back in a night and not a scratch.     Then about get whipped out by one 200 pounder a week later.            Or get out ran twice in a night after having started one.    I'd say my dogs probably were not as good as yours are but at that time, I was hunting behind the best strike dog I or anyone else I've ever known of had ever had the privilege of hunting behind.      Dog did and still does belong to my pig dogging buddy I had then.   
     Since swapping styles and getting the style of dogs I have now, things are much more consistent, predictable, convenient and has opened up new land and hunting opportunities since I can take landowners with me, send the dogs to pigs in a feild, let them watch the chase and the catch and let them see the speed and the efficiency and effectiveness of dogs like these without ever getting out of the feild and when the landowners are with me, they like to sight hunt.   We never get out of the truck, just watch the dogs in the warmth of the truck through the windshield while they enjoy a cold one.  The drive them out to the catch and let them stick it or let them watch me tie it.    If I was to send a bay dog to the same groups of pigs, the landowner would look at me and and say what you gonna do now that the dogs are over on so and so's place.  Most of the land owners have been pig dogging once and won't let you pig dog on them around here cause of the bay that happens on the neighbor.  Landowner seen between the lines and new the pig dogger would be crossing property lines in order to get to bay.   Permission denied.         Permission granted when you show them the efficiency and effectiveness of rcd's  hard enough and fast enough to catch in the feild, not just once but almost every time.  They really like it that you just hunt with 2 dogs too instead of a pack.        Then they are really impressed when you tell your dogs to let go and they let go and then ride loose in the back of the truck with a tied pig without bothering it.      They tend to want to go again and tell you to catch as many pigs as you want, just don't go when it's wet and tear the feilds up.         Sight hunting is done primarily when the landowners go cause its fun for them.           I rarely have an injury to a dog that gets it laid up for a hunt.
   As long as the dog can consistently run down and catch pigs in the open, things should be more consistent on hunts because it's in the dogs hands for a better percentage of the time than if you didn't.          I know you don't give two shakes about hunting in the open, I'm just saying if a dog has this ability, the dog can and will  stop a runner given a fair chance.  If it can't do this consistently,  no matter where the pig is, open country or brushy, the pig dictates the situation most of the time, not the dog.  Referring to runners
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Curcross1987
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« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2016, 12:17:46 am »

I know what a dog can do in a field or open woods means nothing here the longer legged catch dogs with a vest stay tangled up in thickets the shorter catch dogs is the way to go here
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« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2016, 02:08:01 am »

If a man knows how to hunt crops and pastures fields whatever he can be very successful with a couple rough cur dogs.its all in your approach using wind ,tree lines ,ditches and cuts to your advantage can bring your odds way up pull up like a circus holding your spotlight on the hogs and you better have 40 mph dogs.Slip up like an ninja after spotting the hog's and any fast rank curs will do. Since we're talking about fields and crops but if a hog's started in the thick terrible nasty and he get out 20 ft on the dog it's all about trail speed and I know that when mine are in a race that hog messed up if it hits a pasture.
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« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2016, 03:37:22 am »

I have relatively loose baying, cowdog style curs, they get beat sometimes like any other dog, but them jokers can fly, they get ahead and they are persuasive. The older/ better ones combine speed and experience to bay hogs and they don't have to be cob rough to get the job done.

I don't wanna argue with anybody but ill give an anecdote;

ive got an old bitch who got crippled a couple years ago putting a boar back into a sounder and early this year I pulled her out of retirement purely for her own enjoyment and after about the 7th or 8th hog of the night, she lined out another big sow and was busting butt trying to stop her in the thicket when the sow couldn't stand the heat and tried to cut an open field to gain some distance. less than 200 yards into the field she was bayed solid, when we got to her we realized the bitch had been cut thru the tendon on her GOOD back leg! She had run down that sow carrying herself heavy on the front end, using her crippled leg to push off of! 

Lots of things I have seen, but that one example reinforces to me that a dog don't have to be loose or rough, hound or cur, they just have to "be able", and "want to" more than the hog.
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« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2016, 03:45:16 am »

all of that being said, my good buddy Ronnie has a big dog he got from Chad S. by the name of MotherF#?*er Jones who is a Stag/Dogo/pit I think and he is sure worth the name! Cheesy

I wish we had more open country opportunity to let him glide more often because that dog is poetry in motion.
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« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2016, 06:42:50 am »

T bob I agree the want to trumps breed and hunting style


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« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2016, 06:55:58 am »

I'm 38 years old and have be hog hunting duck hunting and fishing all my life, we had around 5,000 head if hogs in the woods at one time. These were the half way gentle woods hogs and we could use pretty much any of our hog dogs to bay and catch these out, the ones we didn't pen. But after we got the fairly gentle ones caught out that's when we got to see the real dogs work. Over the years there's about four dogs that stick out in my my mine. These dogs weren't rough but if they got on a hog we caught it, the dogs were a long way from being rough they just new what they had to do and done it. We would usually have a cut our two but nothing to bad.from my point if view speed and little gritty and not having to fight a track to keep it lined out is what done it for me.
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« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2016, 08:19:20 am »

streak do you have  so many hogs on the places  you hunt you can see hogs out in open fields every hunt ?  do you run vests ?
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« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2016, 09:30:37 am »

I know what a dog can do in a field or open woods means nothing here the longer legged catch dogs with a vest stay tangled up in thickets the shorter catch dogs is the way to go here




This is something that doesn't hold true to most thickets.   There are exceptions to every rule though and you may very well be an exception.      Every small cd with a vest on turned loose to a bay in the thickets with a big athletic   cd always got its butt kicked in getting to the bay by the big cd.    Pit would be hung up by the vest and couldn't push through or couldn't jump over etc.  The big excited cd would use its power and athleticism to get itself to the bay.     Both want the pig just as bad, the big dogs just had the ability to get through the stuff.
     I've seen big dogs that sucked in the brush.  They just didn't like it, didn't like to be in it, wouldn't hardly go through it etc.   It wasn't because they were big they was causing this, it was their mentality.        Same with any dog little or big.     A dog that's never had much experience with briars is always gonna have a learning curve.     To look at things in a holistic manner, many things must be taken into account.      Dog size is one of them but usually this works to the advantage of the dog if it's an athlete.       
    I've seen many pics of people catch dogs on here.    Fat chubby pet pits that look like they sleep on the bed at the owners feet at night.      Soooo many things wrong with this that lead to potential problems such as heat stroke, break down of muscle tissue, lack of stamina, lack of athleticism, inability for the dog to recover quickly for next  catch, etc.    This dog isn't gonna near as good getting through thickets as if it would with a different owner that treated the dog differently.            I have seen several times in real life this same thing with the big cd's people are so high on.   They proud of their big huge cd and say come look at my dog.  You look just to see a big unfit looking couch potato laying down in the back.   Nothing about the dog gives the slightest indication it's physically fit.      I'd lay $ on this dog getting it's butt smoked in the thickets by a little cd.           Most big lead ins I've ever seen were treated like this, not conditioned warriors that could and would live up to the expectations of the owners   blind eye.          This is where they overall myth out the big cd in the brush stems from.  People not taking things in to account and looking at thing holistically.   Plus how many doggers besides us of course are decent dog men out there hog dogging?    I've run into some doosies, and I've seen some good pig catchers that I felt bad for their dogs do to the neglect of one sort or another you could see in their dogs.  I don't mean skinny either
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« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2016, 09:56:23 am »

streak do you have  so many hogs on the places  you hunt you can see hogs out in open fields every hunt ?  do you run vests ?




I have about 3500 acres of crop land I hunt and 15 to 2000 of woods and  brushy  creeks.     How I hunt the crops is the very similar to the top two winningest  teams competing in the big pig tournaments.     Since I have spoke to both about dogs or tactics and am still in communication with one of them, i will not divulge on here how I hunt the feilds.    I owe no loyalty to either of these people but I doubt they would appreciate it if I revealed tactics they are using by telling you how I hunt.   I have never even spoke to one team about another nor would I but they both do things the same way basically which is very similar to my style.
    Yes I do run vest on my dogs.     Won't hunt a dog without one, though the guy that got me started with this style of dogs often times only runs a cut collar and is pulling up great finds with good well equipped boars with no injuries over and over and over.  The guy does this for a living, catches I'm assuming thousand or more pigs a year.  Cut collar for them lots of times
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« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2016, 10:54:34 am »

streak do you have  so many hogs on the places  you hunt you can see hogs out in open fields every hunt ?  do you run vests ?




I have about 3500 acres of crop land I hunt and 15 to 2000 of woods and  brushy  creeks.     How I hunt the crops is the very similar to the top two winningest  teams competing in the big pig tournaments.     Since I have spoke to both about dogs or tactics and am still in communication with one of them, i will not divulge on here how I hunt the feilds.    I owe no loyalty to either of these people but I doubt they would appreciate it if I revealed tactics they are using by telling you how I hunt.   I have never even spoke to one team about another nor would I but they both do things the same way basically which is very similar to my style.
    Yes I do run vest on my dogs.     Won't hunt a dog without one, though the guy that got me started with this style of dogs often times only runs a cut collar and is pulling up great finds with good well equipped boars with no injuries over and over and over.  The guy does this for a living, catches I'm assuming thousand or more pigs a year.  Cut collar for them lots of times

I've got two sets of dogs, track dogs and sight dogs. The sight dogs I call "night vision dogs" and I'd be willing to bet your buddies hunt a lot like I do with my night vision dogs. I've got greyhound and pit crossed dogs that once I spot a hog with the night vision, I walk them downwind as close as I can to the hog before I send them. My "night vision dogs" wont take a track or run one in the woods very far if it does make it out of the field. That is how I want them to be though, if they get burnt by one hog we just load up and check more fields. That is how a lot of people are starting to hunt here in Ga. It is definitely a way to catch big numbers, but to me nothing beats walking my bulldog to a hog that my bay dogs trailed, ran, and stopped.

I hunt both ways so I understand why you hunt the way you do, but not everyone has those type places to hunt and have to have a dog that will wind, hunt out, or take a track to trail and find where they are laid up be it 100 yards or 3/4 of a mile. If you've got a dog that is straight catch and sticking with a hog that runs as far as some of the hogs around here do then you'll be out of dogs quick.
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« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2016, 01:13:49 pm »

Grunt your rcd's play well into my next point I was gonna discuss.         

    My rcd's  (two different types and neither like yours) are bred with many factors in mind other than speed and hardnesd.        Longevity sums it up well.    In order to get a dog to be able to perform like your bull greys do and do more, the must be bred different.  Grey's run out of gas fast and are dainty.      Two things I want to avoid breeding to.  They have great structure (except for the feet on a lot) and superb eyesight that they contribute.     You can get these two things and turn the bad qualities contributed by the gh  into positives if you will use the deerhound and not the greyhound.    Endurance and size that's not as easy diluted plus lot of times they are real hard dogs on there own capable of 1 outing a good boar.       Now breed the deerhound to something a decent size and speed and lead in style hardness to something like a dogo.    Why dogo and not pit type dog? Dogo keeps from diluting the length  of everything  for 1.  Body, leg,  etc.  The structure of the body aids in many things to a good rcd.    Style of vest needed for protection is mitigated which mitigates causing the dog to heat up more so, natural ability to hold a big boar while the vitals are not as easy to hit for the boar, effectiveness at covering more ground with every stride faster than smaller dog (whippet and greyhound both smaller and faster but we are building a pig rcd not a rabbit dog)       dogo  can naturally come closer to matching the speed of a fast pig than a commonly used pit or AB etc.   For everything you add, your taking away something else when crossing these kinds of dogs.  Got to realize this and midagate it.  This is exactly why it's so hard to get an F1 type cross in rcd's to do what a well bred finder holder can do and do it several times a week till you retire it.            Want better rcd's  then breed them better.      I was green in this thought process when I first wanted to use only rcd's to hunt with.  I knew how I wanted to catch pigs but didn't know as much about how to breed for it.   I spent hours talking to a guy that hunts these dogs for a living.  Telling me how it's done day in and day put, what enables it to happen and dispelling the common myths about our misunderstanding of this type of pig dogging or these types of dogs.               Soooo hard to break through to the unbeliever  because they have seen the limitations of F1's and not so well bred dogs used for this type of work.
         Couple all that I described  and then work on the scenting and hunting traits  of the dogs also.    It's way more than most can juggle correctly.  Like I said for everything you add you dilute something else, you got to be able to afford to dilute something before you can add something else.      Don't think of 1 breeding, breed this breeding in order to get the next.    Breed this breed with that and another with another then breed them two together type thinking and get to know people like me with dogs as well bred as mine in order to continue breed to and better the next breeding good instead of diluting to much what you have gained in the 3rd breeding by crossing to dogs that are where you want to be and already have the mixtures established in them and they are just a type of dog now rather than experiments.         
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« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2016, 02:17:43 pm »

that sure sounds good streak but breeding ain't that simple ....  I been breeding the same line of dogs I started 30 years ago...and all mine  go back to 3  dogs one male and 2 females ......and I can tell you all  these  breedings of crosses to achieve traits would take  you years  to prove  up with those  crosses  before  you ever  become consistant .....I just got  mine bred in the past few years to where they all look the same without any throw backs and thats atleast 25 years  of  breeding the same  dogs ....
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